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Thread: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

  1. #21
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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Is it just me... or does his sideboard plan seem like it would have been a better main-deck choice anyway?

    Ignoring for the moment that 4horsemen is essentially a deck built around violating slow play rules, this is a pretty fragile combo, even if he goes off turn 2, a surgical or extirpate can just kill his deck, any other graveyard hate stops it if timed well, anyone who calls a judge over stops him(lol), and the usual control elements (force, pierce, thoughtsieze, etc) get in the way too, plus the artifact hate options like pride mage or shattering spree can stop him.

    I mean, sure the painter-stone combo isn't perfect, but it seems a lot more reliable than his main-deck plan, since it isn't grave reliant, in a format where grave hate is basically required thanks to dredge and to a lesser extent reanimator, and Show and Tell emrakul is another pretty good combo already anyway.

    If he just played his sideboard combos main deck over the horsemen combo, and had a more generally useful sideboard, I can't help but feel he could have had better odds...

  2. #22

    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Are two game states which differ only in that the library has been shuffled considered to be identical for the purposes of the rules?
    Yes.

    (What about if the top card is revealed due to Candles of Leng or something similar, and the top card is the same?)
    Yes, the same.

    It seems like manipulating the Mesmeric Orb/Bassalt Monolith/Emrakul triggers can effectively ensure the graveyard is basically always populated with some cards or there are unresolved milling triggers and exact game states are thus, extremely unlikely to be repeated. Is there an official 'loop condition' that can be used as a test?
    Exact game states don't matter, it's whether the game is being meaningfully advanced. It's not something you can exactly define, it's a "I know it when I see it" sort of thing.

    The gentleman in question says in the deck tech tech that he used all sorts of "tricks" to try to avoid slow play, like declaring null attacks and resolving Narcomeba triggers. That sort of thing doesn't fly, trying to avoid slowplay by performing meaningless actions for the express intent of trying to avoid slow play is still slow play.

    Four Horsemen has zippo to do with loops - loops require both an exact number of iterations and a defined end state. Four Horsemen does not do that.
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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Just for fun, regarding loop rules: Since magic is Turing complete, it's possible to set up a 'halting problem' loops. For example, a game could be set up so that it is a draw by loop if (and only if) the Goldbach Conjecture is true. I wonder how the judges would address that.
    This seems interesting, so I'm going to Wikipedia all of these things. Hooray Math!

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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Well, the rules as written don't allow it, but it seems plausible to state the outcome of the Orb/Monolith loop as:

    "Loop until all cards are put into the graveyard and Emrakul is the last card on the library."

    Then you shuffle your deck, put Emrakul on the bottom, put all other cards in random order into the graveyard, then continue playing as normal.

    This doesn't limit the capability of the other player to interact with the combo.

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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goin Aggro View Post
    What do you mean by "Works"? The way the deck plays in most situations is clearly defined as slow play.
    Someone found a cool interaction with a bunch of otherwise unplayable cards that results in a win. Everyone knows the intent and the outcome, but the governing body sees fit to not let it happen. That's all.

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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenni View Post
    Is it just me... or does his sideboard plan seem like it would have been a better main-deck choice anyway?

    Ignoring for the moment that 4horsemen is essentially a deck built around violating slow play rules, this is a pretty fragile combo, even if he goes off turn 2, a surgical or extirpate can just kill his deck, any other graveyard hate stops it if timed well, anyone who calls a judge over stops him(lol), and the usual control elements (force, pierce, thoughtsieze, etc) get in the way too, plus the artifact hate options like pride mage or shattering spree can stop him.

    I mean, sure the painter-stone combo isn't perfect, but it seems a lot more reliable than his main-deck plan, since it isn't grave reliant, in a format where grave hate is basically required thanks to dredge and to a lesser extent reanimator, and Show and Tell emrakul is another pretty good combo already anyway.

    If he just played his sideboard combos main deck over the horsemen combo, and had a more generally useful sideboard, I can't help but feel he could have had better odds...
    Outside of Extirpate which doesn't even get played often, the deck doesn't get nuked by graveyard hate. The beauty of having 2 Emrakuls in the deck was, if your opponent responds to your Narc trigger with Surgical or Tormod's, you just respond by flipping some more until you hit the other Emrakul and letting his shuffle trigger resolve before letting the Surgical or Tormod's trigger to resolve, then carry on. As for Swords as a way to answer the Narc, what you do is you start milling until you hit a Therapy first, before hitting a Narc, resolve the Narc then without passing priority, Therapy his hand for any relevant removal or surprise hate. The resilience of the deck to hate is what made playing a slower combo than what was available out there reasonable. This was all prior to the rules change.

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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychovoid View Post
    Well, the rules as written don't allow it, but it seems plausible to state the outcome of the Orb/Monolith loop as:

    "Loop until all cards are put into the graveyard and Emrakul is the last card on the library."

    Then you shuffle your deck, put Emrakul on the bottom, put all other cards in random order into the graveyard, then continue playing as normal.

    This doesn't limit the capability of the other player to interact with the combo.
    This isn't a valid randomization. You would be stacking your deck if you did that. Reaching the state that Emrakul is the last card in the deck requires chance, rather than a specific loop of actions.

    Again, while mathematically plausible, the Four Horsemen victory condition is not achievable using Loops. This forces it to be performed mechanically, one library shuffle at a time. Since there is a large chance that the next iteration will achieve an undesired ordering of the deck, this is considered Slow Play.

    The question is not the victory condition. The question is how to reach that state deterministically. You cannot.
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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychovoid View Post
    Well, the rules as written don't allow it, but it seems plausible to state the outcome of the Orb/Monolith loop as:

    "Loop until all cards are put into the graveyard and Emrakul is the last card on the library."

    Then you shuffle your deck, put Emrakul on the bottom, put all other cards in random order into the graveyard, then continue playing as normal.

    This doesn't limit the capability of the other player to interact with the combo.
    The Problem with this and any shortcuts incarnations like "i repeat till a, b, c, d and e happens" is that this basically would require to legalize stacking Decks and graveyards.

    Maybe Jeff questionable shortcuts this Way to explain/execute the combo against bis opponents which isn't within the rules afaik.

    So you either Stack your deck/grave or slow Play and get ruled on that. This deck is like Sheherazade: You don't Play it to win but stall the game till Time is called or opponent scoops. It was in Jeff's hands to choose that path and the judges let him pass somehow.

    As mentioned already: The fact that he ran 2 Emrakul instead of the obligatory 1-off is an evil addition to make the required flipover combination A LOT LESS likely (yes I have his SB tech in mind)


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  9. #29

    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    Exact game states don't matter, it's whether the game is being meaningfully advanced. It's not something you can exactly define, it's a "I know it when I see it" sort of thing.
    This confuses me greatly. The player is clearly trying to win the game by producing lethal damage with a well-defined line of play - that's the epitome of advancing the game state.

    The question is not the victory condition. The question is how to reach that state deterministically. You cannot.
    This is an "ipse dixit" (because we say so) ruling.

    As mentioned already: The fact that he ran 2 Emrakul instead of the obligatory 1-off is an evil addition to make the required flipover combination A LOT LESS likely (yes I have his SB tech in mind)
    Yeah, that moves it from around 10 expected shuffles to combo out to around 13. Depending on how long shuffles take, that's in the realm of feasible in tourney time. I guess we can ask how many shuffles per game should be allowed.

    Edit: Considering that shuffle shortcuts are allowed for Mind's Desire, it's not that hard to handle the mechanics of something like this similarly.
    Edit2: How is this any worse than Solitary Confinement was as a win con?

    Edit3: I got the lines of play wrong...1 go-through to get all the narcomobas, 3 or 6 on average to set up the Dred Return, and 7 to end the game.
    Last edited by rufus; 09-17-2012 at 04:15 PM. Reason: Shuffle shortcuts

  10. #30

    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    This confuses me greatly. The player is clearly trying to win the game by producing lethal damage with a well-defined line of play - that's the epitome of advancing the game state.
    You're looking at this from an "ends justify the means" standpoint. Compare this to the old Ornithopter/Enduring Renewal/Goblin Bombardment combo: that loop had a precisely defined number of iterations that you had to go through in order to win, and that number was known at the outset. This loop has an undefined number of iterations because you are trying to find specific cards without hitting specific other cards while in the same loop. No one can say the exact number of iterations of the loop a player will need to perform at the outset of the loop. That is the problem here. The player can potentially be forced to go through dozens of iterations of doing nothing - that is, not accomplishing anything necessary in order to win - before the right combination of cards turns up. The rules were changed to prevent this because it's a massive waste of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Edit: Considering that shuffle shortcuts are allowed for Mind's Desire, it's not that hard to handle the mechanics of something like this similarly.
    Mind's Desire is completely different beast. There, the randomness of the cards didn't matter - that is, you weren't going to keep Mind's Desiring until you found Cards X, Y, and Z. You must perform the Four Horseman loop until you have Dread Return, Sharuum, Blasting Station, and four in-play Narcomoebas. There is no way to shortcut that loop without cheating because what cards you turn up has an impact on how many more times you need to iterate the loop.

  11. #31

    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    This confuses me greatly. The player is clearly trying to win the game by producing lethal damage with a well-defined line of play - that's the epitome of advancing the game state.
    It doesn't matter what he's "trying" to do, he is either/both a) not sufficiently advancing the game state b) trying to advance an invalid "loop". Attempting to advance an invalid "loop" is specifically defined as Slow Play in the rules.

    Yeah, that moves it from around 20 expected shuffles to combo out to around 33. Depending on how long shuffles take, that's in the realm of feasible in tourney time. I guess we can ask how many shuffles per game should be allowed.
    You're allowed ~30 seconds per turn, and you're not allowed to attempt to advance an invalid "loop".

    Edit: Considering that shuffle shortcuts are allowed for Mind's Desire, it's not that hard to handle the mechanics of something like this similarly.
    Shortcutting shuffling between resolution of effects is completely different - you're really stretching for something and completely failing. There is no reason to shuffle a deck that's already randomized and that's why it's explicitly allowed by the rules. You cannot shortcut anything about the Four Horsemen "combo".
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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    This confuses me greatly. The player is clearly trying to win the game by producing lethal damage with a well-defined line of play - that's the epitome of advancing the game state.
    The game state that is desired to be reached is: Dread Return, Sharuum, and Blasting Station, but not Emrakul - in the graveyard. This condition is generated with Mill 1 being looped. The external factor is the ordering of the deck - something that cannot be controlled in a tournament setting. From there, a player could select N and perform the loop in order to attempt to reach that state. However, attempting to do so would amount to the following actions:

    Mill 1, check for Emrakul.
    If Emrakul, restart.
    If DR, S, BS and not Emrakul, win.

    This cannot be dealt with normal tournament shortcuts due to the indeterminate ordering of the deck. Thus, a player would just be looping through his deck without making meaningful actions to the game state. This is the very definition of Slow Play/Stalling.

    This is an "ipse dixit" (because we say so) ruling.
    The ruling is to insure game and matches complete in a timely manner and allow players to advance the game through normal actions. A common method to check for "slow play" - if you're watching a game and you're bored with what's going on - it's Slow Play. If you think it's Slow Play - it probably is. If no player makes an action that advances the game within 20-30 seconds, that's also Slow Play.

    Yeah, that moves it from around 20 expected shuffles to combo out to around 33. Depending on how long shuffles take, that's in the realm of feasible in tourney time. I guess we can ask how many shuffles per game should be allowed.
    Simply because the loop can be proven feasible mathematically using probability does not make it executable in a non-trivial amount of time. It could also be the case that 50 shuffles do not achieve the state desired.

    Edit: Considering that shuffle shortcuts are allowed for Mind's Desire, it's not that hard to handle the mechanics of something like this similarly.
    Here, the difference is that the deck is sufficient randomized after one shuffle. Shuffling after the first iteration does not make the deck MORE random than it was before. An accepted shortcut for this spell is to reveal the top X cards, where X is the total copies of Mind's Desire on the stack.

    Edit2: How is this any worse than Solitary Confinement was as a win con?
    The issue is not the win condition, but how Four Horsement deck reaches that state. It's perfectly acceptable to cast Blasting Station then continue looping to achieve 20 damage via the Narcomoeba/Emrakul reshuffle.
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  13. #33

    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    I'm surprised the guy got away with the four horseman at a legacy tournament due to the rules update with emrakul in the deck. If I were to play that deck I would practically default to the mimeoplasm + redcap + lord of extinction kill with no emrakuls maindeck as the blasting station kill is now illegal and considered slow play because trying to mill sharuum, blasting station, and dread return before hitting an emrakul can't be achieved without doing what a judge would consider slow play.

    And yeah I saw the shitstorm on twitter. People went on about it for hours and hours, it only really stopped when Patrick Sullivan killed the maverick player in game 3 because he tapped his wasteland for mana.
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  14. #34
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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Hey guys. I want to weigh in here.

    In the few months I was playing this after we had figured out the Emrakul wincon and before the rules change that nerfed it, I was able to pull some pretty ridiculous "shortcuts". The rules change nerfs the deck not because the deck takes long to do manually (it almost never ever did, and was generally a good bit faster than Solidarity as a comparison), but because of the other evil things you could do if the shortcut "do this until x and y happen before z" is acceptable. Consider this scenario:

    I have 1 Echoing Truth in the deck. I desperately need to get rid of Gaddock Teeg to avoid losing on my opponent's next combat step. I say "I cycle through indefinitely until I have only Emrakul, Ponder, and Echoing Truth in my library, then stop. I can tell you that the game did not really have a clear way to prevent this before. Once I got my opponent to agree to "x and y until z" for the regular combo, I could potentially get any combination of cards in my GY or library that I wanted and he had already agreed to the shortcut. So he was fucked if I felt like I wanted to pull shit like this.

    For the record, I never did.

    I totally accept that this rule needed to be created. Even while I was testing with my friends, we acknowledged that we were breaking the game, and that it was only a matter of time before wotc fixed it.
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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Finn, even your example has a non-zero probability of not happening after the number of iterations you chose. Neither before nor after the IPG change would you have been able to get away with that. As you said, you never tried, but it should also never have worked.
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  16. #36

    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby
    It's perfectly acceptable to cast Blasting Station then continue looping to achieve 20 damage via the Narcomoeba/Emrakul reshuffle.
    Since the Emrakul trigger can cancel the Narcomoeba's, and the player has to react to this random outcome, I don't see how that can be considered different from stacking for sharumon/dred return.

    Now, I wonder whether short-cutting Chance Encounter + Frenetic Efreet is also not allowed. There's no conditional actions, but it's unclear how many counters will be on Chance Encounter after the coin flips so the end state is not clear.

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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Since the Emrakul trigger can cancel the Narcomoeba's, and the player has to react to this random outcome, I don't see how that can be considered different from stacking for sharumon/dred return.

    Now, I wonder whether short-cutting Chance Encounter + Frenetic Efreet is also not allowed. There's no conditional actions, but it's unclear how many counters will be on Chance Encounter after the coin flips so the end state is not clear.
    Each mill is a discrete event. Each Narcomoeba trigger is a discrete event. Normal resolution of a million Tap/Untap looped all at once will always result in Narcomoeba entering the battlefield.

    The loop used:
    Tap Basalt Monolith for mana - does not use the stack.
    Untap Basalt Monolith - ability goes to the stack.
    Resolve Untap, trigger Mesmeric Orb onto the stack.
    Resolve Mesmeric Orb, put a card from library to graveyard.

    You can select to do this loop 60 times, which will put the entire library into the graveyard.
    To be clear here, once Narcomoeba or Emrakul triggers - the loop is broken. Players receive priority again here. If no further actions are taken, then either g/y trigger will resolve.

    The difference between Chance Encounter + Frenetic Efreet is that you can select an arbitrarily large number resolve them to achieve a game state that is desired. The only indeterminate is the outcome of a coin-flip (50% odds) rather than the position of a card in a deck (<5% odds) or the position in relation to 3 other cards (<0.1%). Selecting 100 coin flips to win 10 ought to be enough. If it doesn't, the loop was attempted and the outcome failed, but now Frenetic Efreet is also dead. This advances the game state.

    Looping through Four Horsemen will always lead to a fresh library and no graveyard, and a very very very small chance of the desired condition occuring.

    Shortcuts are simply that, ways to speed up repetitive game functions - like double fetching or declaring blocks out of order.
    Loops are a series of actions that have consistent inputs and results. These can be performed ad infinitum and therefore require to select a number of iterations. They can have exit conditions to stop suddenly based on a describable outcome. If any triggers occur during a loop and is not part of the loop, the loop is broken and players receive priority as normal.

    Describing the outcome of an ordering of random cards is not allowed within the scope of this tournament rule. It is not a consistent or repeatable outcome.
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  18. #38

    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    Each mill is a discrete event. Each Narcomoeba trigger is a discrete event. Normal resolution of a million Tap/Untap looped all at once will always result in Narcomoeba entering the battlefield.
    If you tap/untap and let things resolve, you might always hit Emrakul before you hit the Narcomoeba.
    If, instead, you stack up a bunch of tap/untaps, then you might always hit Narcomoeba before Emrakul, and the Narcomoeba would get shuffled under.

    Hence, unless you're allowed to react to triggers, running a million mills will only get you a Narcomoeba *almost* all of the time. Moreover, you can't guarantee what cards will be in the graveyard when the trigger goes off so you can't really shortcut to it.

    You can argue that playing through the library once will guarantee a narco with conditional play, and that that should be legal since it 'advances the game state'...

    P.S. I was stupid with my lines of play above. the finish is way faster than I thought.

  19. #39

    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    You're allowed ~30 seconds per turn, and you're not allowed to attempt to advance an invalid "loop".
    I'm a little confused, what does this mean? The question was about the number of times you should shuffle, so are you saying that each shuffle during a turn should take no more than 30 seconds? Or are you saying that a turn, barring complications, should be no more than 30 seconds?

  20. #40
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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    If you tap/untap and let things resolve, you might always hit Emrakul before you hit the Narcomoeba.
    If, instead, you stack up a bunch of tap/untaps, then you might always hit Narcomoeba before Emrakul, and the Narcomoeba would get shuffled under.

    Hence, unless you're allowed to react to triggers, running a million mills will only get you a Narcomoeba *almost* all of the time. Moreover, you can't guarantee what cards will be in the graveyard when the trigger goes off so you can't really shortcut to it.

    You can argue that playing through the library once will guarantee a narco with conditional play, and that that should be legal since it 'advances the game state'...

    P.S. I was stupid with my lines of play above. the finish is way faster than I thought.
    Think it through -
    1. Tap Monolith for mana.
    2. Untap Monolith, triggering a mill.
    3. In response, go to #1. Repeat 99 times.

    100 Mill triggers on the stack. Let them each resolve individually until you flip Emrakul.

    Once Emrakul trigger, continue looping Monolith to get the rest of the deck. Each Narcomoeba resolves individually, jumping onto the battlefield. Let all the remaining triggers resolve.

    It only takes 1 decking loop to pop out all the Narcomoebas, and this is exactly how it's supposed to be described.

    "Mill until a g/y trigger occurs. If it's Emrakul, continue milling to hit all the narco's." - acceptable loop
    "Mill until X, Y, and Z, but not D hit the graveyard" - not an acceptable loop.
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