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Thread: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

  1. #41

    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    I'm a little confused, what does this mean? The question was about the number of times you should shuffle, so are you saying that each shuffle during a turn should take no more than 30 seconds? Or are you saying that a turn, barring complications, should be no more than 30 seconds?
    30 seconds is a general guideline for slow play - the longest amount of time it's acceptable to do something (like sit and think, most commonly) without advancing the game state.

    I wouldn't give Four Horsemen more than 30 seconds or so per turn.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

  2. #42
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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Assuming you play a Coin Flip deck against a Life Combo deck.

    If you have a way to cast an arbitrary amount of Aleatory (Isochron Scepter plus Infinite Mana + Untap for Mana effect) on an unblocked creature while your opponent is at 1 million life.

    Would that mean that you cannot win this game because you can neither name a number that is high enough to ensure 1 million wins nor perform 1 million actual coinflips?

  3. #43

    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tao View Post
    Would that mean that you cannot win this game because you can neither name a number that is high enough to ensure 1 million wins nor perform 1 million actual coinflips?
    There is no way to shortcut coinflips, no. The game would either be a draw or you would get a game loss for slow play, I'm not even sure which is correct. I don't think you want to find out in a tournament.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

  4. #44
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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    ...or you just die on your opponent's next upkeep
    The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
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  5. #45
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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    haha i love when judges get all self conscious and upset at good questions. It's all perspective...

  6. #46
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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Tedious combo deck is tedious. I'm fine with people playing it, but he has to really work quickly if i'm to let this combo deck slide. He should be putting 3 narcomoemba onto the table quickly then try to get the station, sharuum and dread return down in there quickly. If he uses to long i will call a judge. There's no problem with him trying to combo of as long as it takes less than 5 minutes. How often do you see High Tide go off and kill you in less than 5 minutes? If he does it slowly however, i will call a judge due to the inherent slowness of the combo.

  7. #47

    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by troopatroop View Post
    haha i love when judges get all self conscious and upset at good questions. It's all perspective...
    Yeah, judges love it when you try to bring decks to tournaments that you've been told don't work under the rules. It's all perspective...
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

  8. #48

    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    If the time it takes to win with the deck is why it got dismantled by Wizards, shoudn't High Tide and more importantly Second Sunrise combo decks also be neutered?

    I sling Chromatic Star all day and kept help but feeling bad for an opponent as I rifle through 5+ Sunrise chains for a win.

  9. #49

    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanti View Post
    If the time it takes to win with the deck is why it got dismantled by Wizards, shoudn't High Tide and more importantly Second Sunrise combo decks also be neutered?
    I'm pretty sure it is not the time to go off. Rather that going off doesn't involve putting a giant creature into play.

    Golgari Grave-Troll is the only thing keeping the dredge mechanic legal.



    (Edit 1: High Tide is okay because it has Awesome.)

    (Edit 2: Sharuum isn't big enough for Wizards.)
    Last edited by GoblinSettler; 09-21-2012 at 02:30 AM. Reason: Details details.
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  10. #50
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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Was the original question in this thread ever answered? How did he end up in 17th place? Did the opponents not know that they could call a judge, or is there some way to win without using the illegal loop?

    I understand that he lost during the feature match explained in the second post, but he obviously did quite a lot of winning as well.

  11. #51
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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanti View Post
    If the time it takes to win with the deck is why it got dismantled by Wizards, shoudn't High Tide and more importantly Second Sunrise combo decks also be neutered?
    No because High Tide dismantles its opponents much faster than decks like CounterTop, Stax and Lands. Also High Tide games end much quicker than most of the grindy Maverick vs BUG Control, Stoneblade vs Miracles, RUG vs RUG mirror matches etc.

  12. #52
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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    You are mixing up two completely different things. "Infinite"-mechanics where you cannot name a specific number of iterations with a more or less specific board state are forbidden by the rules, whereas things like High Tide just involve casting lots of spells, where you take different choices and don't shortcut ("I cast Time Spiral, use my cantrips and tutors to storm to 17 and cast Brain Freeze" doesn't work, unless your opponent is either an idiot or really really impatient - in which case MTG is the wrong game anyway).

    As for the tournament, I guess most people weren't even aware of the rule. I just don't understand, why no judge was monitoring his games after the first judge call.

  13. #53

    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malchar View Post
    Was the original question in this thread ever answered? How did he end up in 17th place? Did the opponents not know that they could call a judge, or is there some way to win without using the illegal loop?

    I understand that he lost during the feature match explained in the second post, but he obviously did quite a lot of winning as well.
    IT's not, per se, illegal. It is, however, in the dictionary under "Slow". :p

    It's the mechanism by which it wins: it's not Tide decks, which generally have a kajillion decisions to make, or Easter Eggs with it's infinite loops of DOOM! It's a probability-based deck (well, even more so than other combo decks) with four conditions that need to be met - Dread Return AND Sharuum AND Station NAND Emrakul.

    And seeing as the last one needs to be done mechanically, as opposed to "Point Nomads en-Kor at Daru Spiritualist a Googol times, sac to Worthy Cause, gain agoogol and two life." The mechanics of the combo are the issue.

  14. #54

    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    There is no way to shortcut coinflips, no. The game would either be a draw or you would get a game loss for slow play, I'm not even sure which is correct. I don't think you want to find out in a tournament.
    So, let's say I have Chance Encounter + Frenetic Efreet in play. Is there a maximum number of coin flips I'm allowed to put in the stack before I get called for slow play? (With this rules regime, it seems like the efreet should be banned.)

    IT's not, per se, illegal. It is, however, in the dictionary under "Slow". :p
    Assuming one Emrakul, and three narcomoebas it takes, on average:
    It takes 1 run through the deck to get the Narcomoebas out. 1
    another 2.5 runs through the deck to get Sharuum and Dred Return
    another 1 run through the deck to get Blasting Station
    another 6 runs through to the deck to get 21 damage.

    An average of 10.5 shuffles. It's really not that bad.

  15. #55
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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    So, let's say I have Chance Encounter + Frenetic Efreet in play. Is there a maximum number of coin flips I'm allowed to put in the stack before I get called for slow play? (With this rules regime, it seems like the efreet should be banned.)
    You would automatically terminate the loop and win the game after 10 successful flips. Picking a large enough number to win 10 flips will be fine. This interaction is at least obvious enough to see what you're trying to do and how to achieve it. De facto it's an implied win, so long as you pick a large enough N prior to resolving a coin flip.

    Assuming one Emrakul, and three narcomoebas it takes, on average:
    It takes 1 run through the deck to get the Narcomoebas out. 1
    another 2.5 runs through the deck to get Sharuum and Dred Return
    another 1 run through the deck to get Blasting Station
    another 6 runs through to the deck to get 21 damage.

    An average of 10.5 shuffles. It's really not that bad.
    Your understanding of the Four Horsemen deck is flawed. There is only one opportunity to Sharuum + Dread Return + Blasting Station out, and that's when all three are in the g/y before Emrakul is milled. This condition can only be performed mechanically. There is no average number of shuffles that will be accepted by a judge and smart players to demonstrate that it will occur. It either occurs or it doesn't. In an ideal world, you would have all the time to reach that condition. In a tournament setting, you will be warned with Slow Play after a relatively short time of "durdling".
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  16. #56

    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Your understanding of the Four Horsemen deck is flawed. There is only one opportunity to Sharuum + Dread Return + Blasting Station out, and that's when all three are in the g/y before Emrakul is milled.
    Yeah, I forgot that Sharuum targets. It's still about 10.5 trips on average through the deck to do lethal damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    You would automatically terminate the loop and win the game after 10 successful flips. Picking a large enough number to win 10 flips will be fine. This interaction is at least obvious enough to see what you're trying to do and how to achieve it. De facto it's an implied win, so long as you pick a large enough N prior to resolving a coin flip.
    It's not that simple:
    Chance encounter doesn't give an immediate win - you have to wait until your next upkeep for the game win trigger.
    The djinn leaves play on the first flip, so you have to choose some fixed number of flips when you start flipping coins.
    There's no number of coin flips that will actually guarantee at least 10 wins. Moreover the number of counters that are on Chance Encounter after all the flips have been resolved is not deterministic, so formally, I don't think the 'out of order play' shortcut can be used.
    Finally, as cdr has pointed out, there is no way to shortcut coin flips.

    In other words, let's say that I have Chance Encounter and Frenetic Efreet in play, and 'go off' on your end phase by putting say 1,000 activations of the efreet on the stack. If I don't actually flip a coin 1000 times, how do I know how many luck counters are on Chance Encounter when my upkeep starts?

    This condition can only be performed mechanically. There is no average number of shuffles that will be accepted by a judge and smart players to demonstrate that it will occur. It either occurs or it doesn't. In an ideal world, you would have all the time to reach that condition.
    Here's a more contrived scenario that illustrates my concern with 'advancing the game state':

    Player 1's untap step and he has these cards in play:
    Panoptic Mirror with Savor the Moment imprinted on it.
    Goblin Bomb (no fuse counters)
    Obstinate Familiar tapped with Paralyze on it.
    With no other cards in his library, hand, or graveyard, and is at 1 life.
    And player has 20 life, Rift Bolt suspended, with 1 time counter on it, and all his other cards exiled.

    Player 1 clearly wants to win the game by taking turns until the Goblin Bomb can go off. Since he can't shortcut through coin flips, he starts going through his turns winning some of the coin flips, so, each turn Player 1 plays Savor the Moment, and activates the Goblin Bomb trigger.

    After the first time that player 1 loses the coin flip, player 2 says he has to take a different line of action because it's a repeated game state. Moreover, he requests that player 1 be warned for slow play since he failed to advance the game state.

    The first seems unfortunate, but possibly necessary. The second seems absurd.

  17. #57

    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    So, let's say I have Chance Encounter + Frenetic Efreet in play. Is there a maximum number of coin flips I'm allowed to put in the stack before I get called for slow play? (With this rules regime, it seems like the efreet should be banned.)
    The maximum that can be resolved in ~30 seconds. Activating it more than can be resolved in a reasonable amount of time would be Slow Play.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

  18. #58
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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    The maximum that can be resolved in ~30 seconds. Activating it more than can be resolved in a reasonable amount of time would be Slow Play.
    Can you shortcut it by throwing a sock full of coins against the wall?

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  19. #59

    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tammit67 View Post
    Can you shortcut it by throwing a sock full of coins against the wall?

    Inquiring minds etc
    If you could assure they were as random as tossing a coin and your opponent agreed (and not disruptive to the tournament, etc), sure. You could also roll a bunch of dice as long as they were rolled properly.

    Somehow doubt a sock is going to allow the coins to spin enough etc, though.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

  20. #60
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    Re: SCG LA: Four Horseman in 17th - How?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    If you could assure they were as random as tossing a coin and your opponent agreed (and not disruptive to the tournament, etc), sure. You could also roll a bunch of dice as long as they were rolled properly.

    Somehow doubt a sock is going to allow the coins to spin enough etc, though.
    Could you use a mobile phone program with a random generator?

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