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Thread: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

  1. #241
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    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    About his list, why the two Jace Berelens?

  2. #242
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    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Oiolosse View Post
    About his list, why the two Jace Berelens?
    Jace wars, and B/x disruption to recoup cards in hand.
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  3. #243

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    ONe of the things that is clearly noticeable is the fetch-base between the two: Both are almost equally geared to get the sources, but Jeremy's list has much more focus on two fetches: the Strand and the Tarn, in contrast to Caleb's, which seems to be better geared for variance. Is this a nod to cards like Pithing Needle? And if so, was that at all relevant during the Open?

  4. #244

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    There is such thing as card availability and overanalysis.....

    It's best to split the fetches as much as possible, but probably won't matter much.

  5. #245

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    I ran a StoneBlade variant of this deck in a local tourney today. The deck went 4-0 then an intential draw in the last round. Opponents were Mono Red Burn, Dredge, Miracles Control, and Goblins. The only game loss was to Burn, otherwise the other 3 matches went 2-0.

    Here is the decklist.

    4 Brainstorm
    1 Back to Basics
    2 Counterbalance
    1 Detention Sphere
    2 Energy Field
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Force of Will
    2 Helm of Obedience
    1 Geist of Saint Traft
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    4 Rest in Peace
    2 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Spell Pierce
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Vendilion Clique

    1 Batterskull
    3 Stoneforge Mystic
    1 Sword of Feast and Famine
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice

    1 Ancient Tomb
    4 Flooded Strand
    5 Island
    1 Karakas
    1 Mash Flats
    3 Plains
    2 Scaldinfg Tarn
    3 Tundra
    1 Windswept Heath

    // Sideboard:

    1 Hurkyls Recall
    3 Glided Drake
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    1 Chalice of the Void
    1 Spell Snare
    1 Stifle
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Humility
    1 Ethersworn Canonist


    I like the Rest in Peace combo with StoneBlade because it gives an alternate win condition, but moreover because it creates distractions for your opponent to deal with. (i.e. drawing counterspells, burn, and other removal.)

    After playing the above list, I think 3 Tundra is definently too much, 2 seems better, maybe even 1. Also, I had one offs of Geist and Clique, which I think should be dumped in favor of a 4th Stoneforge and 2nd Spell Pierce. I think the 2nd Helm also doesn't belong here and maybe add a 3rd Spell Pierce in its place. I am also thinking Counterbalance could be cut to a tutorable one off and add a third Energy Field. I was wishing for a 4th Swords to Plowshares, so that needs to be in the board. As for the manabase, I think a City of Traitors would have been nice (and/or a second Ancient Tomb) Also, the Karakas probably belongs in the board.

    This decklist seems to make every game very different mainly due to the lack of redundency and/or no Ponders (i.e. the deck slots are being filled with the StoneBlade engine). However, the alternate win condition was nice to have.

    As for the tourney report, here is a synopsis:

    Burn folded to Energy Field / Rest in Peace with Sulfuric Vortex in play. Dredge folded to the same with Batterskull in play. (Obviously Dredge has a real problem against a deck main decking four Rest in Peace.) Miracles Control was an interesting matchup, he wacked my combo pieces with a 2 charge Engineered Explosives, but I pulled of the win with Stoneblade in one game. Second game I pulled off the helm combo. In my Goblins matchup first game I didn't have a RIP or Tutors, but I had an Energy field in my starting hand that I kept. I swords'ed off his first two dudes, then after he built up I was likely going to die the next turn so I laid Energy Field without a RIP in play. I simply waited until I drew a RIP, which was like 4 or 5 turns, then he picked up to the RIP hitting the field. (I was very concerned a Wasteland would win him the game) Second game with Goblins I pulled off the Helm Combo.

    Overall, it seems like a very viable deck with the current metagame. I have my doubts about this deck matched up with Show and Tell/Omnicience, anything with Targeted Discard, and Maverick, but I like the odds against RUG Delver and other graveyard dependent decks.

    Anyways, thanks for reading.

  6. #246
    Emptying the Warrens

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    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    Person who just posted their decklist: why run gilded drake over oblivion ring in the sideboard? Oblivion ring is tutor able and actually has uses in other matchups that aren't show and tell

  7. #247

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    True, O-Ring has some obvious advantages. The truth is I didn't put enough thought into my sideboard and some of it was driven by cards at hand. I think I also wanted to get too cute with stealing an Emrakul, Griselbrand, or other monster. Agreed though, O-ring should be at least a two or three of in the board. Maybe one in the main. I did run into an opposing Detention Sphere in one game where my Detention Sphere was not an answer, but the O-Ring would have handed me an earlier win.

  8. #248

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    Yay for a RIP deck top 8'ing! Too bad it wasn't me: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...W-RIP-Miracles

  9. #249

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    Hey,

    I think this deck is pretty neat. I wish I could splash blue in Quinn. I think it is difficult to defend planeswalkers with this and force+etutor is a lot of card disadvantage so those two are not in here. I was playing around with the list below.

    // Lands
    1 [MR] Ancient Den
    1 [PC2] Plains (5)
    1 [IN] Island (1)
    4 [ON] Polluted Delta
    4 [ON] Flooded Strand
    2 [A] Scrubland
    4 [A] Tundra
    2 [A] Underground Sea
    4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats

    // Creatures
    1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist

    // Spells
    3 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
    3 [US] Energy Field
    3 [AL] Helm of Obedience
    1 [CS] Counterbalance
    3 [M11] Leyline of the Void
    4 [RTR] Rest in Peace
    3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
    3 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
    4 [FNM] Brainstorm
    1 [10E] Mobilization
    3 [JU] Web of Inertia
    1 [TE] Humility
    2 [WL] Abeyance
    2 [DDG] Oblivion Ring

    // Sideboard
    SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
    SB: 1 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
    SB: 2 [PS] Orim's Chant
    SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
    SB: 2 [CS] Counterbalance
    SB: 1 [7E] Ensnaring Bridge
    SB: 1 [M11] Leyline of the Void

  10. #250
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    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    NECRO!! So...with Deathrite showing up in mono white decks(this dude is everywhere) and Abrupt Decay hopefully seeing much less play, is this deck viable again? Always wanted to try it but never got around to it back in 2012! Doable without counter/top?
    Today I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. -Oppenheimer

  11. #251

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Madmankevinx View Post
    NECRO!! So...with Deathrite showing up in mono white decks(this dude is everywhere) and Abrupt Decay hopefully seeing much less play, is this deck viable again? Always wanted to try it but never got around to it back in 2012! Doable without counter/top?
    "Ancient thread, lost to the ages...arise and return to the frontmost pages!"

    I think the Lantern control shell looks promising for this kind of win condition at the moment: Thread. The later pages are starting to develop into something similar, and it shows a lot of promise in my opinion. But, maybe I'm just biased because I really like the idea of that deck.

  12. #252

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    really nobody is playing this sweet deck anymore?
    or there is another thread I'm not aware of?

  13. #253

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    I was messing about with an updated version of this in case of RUG and Reanimator returning, doesn't seem half bad.

    4 Force of Will
    4 Counterspell
    3 Counterbalance
    2 Supreme Verdict
    2 Detention Sphere
    2 Jace The Mindsculptor
    1 Energy Field (honestly don't care for it, leaning towards a Path to Exile)
    2 Soothsaying
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Rest in Piece
    2 Helm of Obediance
    22 lands.

  14. #254

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by NegatorITA View Post
    really nobody is playing this sweet deck anymore?
    or there is another thread I'm not aware of?
    Legacy lantern thread....

  15. #255

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    So I played this list for 5 matches in the practice room (I know it’s no league, but bear with me).


    I simply took my old RIP/Helm list and made a few changes for the current meta and Court of Grace.
    My previous list was much more combo oriented, with 3 Impulse, 2 Preordain and 2 Helm to get a quick combo kill.
    Here we replaced the Impulse with the Omen of the Sea, and oh boy, I wasn’t ready.
    @FTW, at first I didn’t understand why you put 3 Counterbalance main, but being able to flash in Omen makes it very stupid sometimes. Kinda incentivize me to try a more blue focused version of the deck with up to 4 Omen and 3 Counterbalance…

    Court of Grace was fine, but I couldn't take true advantage of the Monarchy. Maybe my split was wrong and it should be 2 Helm/1 Court… More testing is needed.

    I fell against 12-Post. Lost pitifully. The Match-up is still abysmal.

    I will try to test Court of Cunning next time. Maybe in the blue version I mentioned…

  16. #256
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    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    Yeah the Counterbalance main works well with Omen of the Sea. Each Omen can set it up twice while fixing your draws. Reeplcheep's also been using that synergy in his Aminatou deck.

    You can also do CB tricks with ETutor, since there are relevant targets at all parts of the curve. That play offsets the card disadvantage from ETutor, because you both fix your draw and counter some spell. Even if you're not countering their best spell, you stole a card back while casting a 1-mana tutor.

    Sometimes I just jam CB early to draw out answers. Most decks run very few enchantment kill slots in the 75. If they Force or Decay or Wear//Tear Counterbalance, that's fewer answers they have for Rip/Helm and Energy Field. If they let it stick, you have CB active and randomly nullify some of their cards. Either way I'm happy.

    In a bind, I can also turn on CB with a 1-of Unexpectedly Absent for X=0. That card has many modes. Sure it's instant speed removal for a problem if they fetch, but it can also tuck your own card (e.g. Omen or Astrolabe) to counter a spell, or it can save a combo piece from removal.

    I don't have any ideas for 12Post other than that it's a small part of the meta. Counterbalance seems bad there, but it should be good against the fair blue, aggro and combo decks taking up most of the meta.

    I do keep 1-of Web of Inertia in the SB to stop "attacks" triggers, including Annihilator, since they get through Energy Field.

    I thought the 2nd Court would be good, but I've only run 1 myself so far. Court of Cunning is at a better part of the curve for CB and synergizes with RiP. Seems good.

  17. #257
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    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    Now that Oko is banned, both Scroll Rack and Jace, the Mind Sculptor are again playable as ways to support Counterbalance and draw cards. A CB-heavy list seems possible now.


    //Lands: 20
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Prismatic Vista
    2 Scalding Tarn
    1 Tundra
    1 Volcanic Island
    4 Snow-Covered Island
    2 Snow-Covered Plains
    1 Snow-Covered Mountain
    1 Karakas

    //Spells: 23
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Enlightened Tutor
    2 Force of Negation
    2 Terminus

    //Enchantments: 13
    1 On Thin Ice
    4 Rest in Peace
    3 Energy Field
    3 Counterbalance
    1 Court of Cunning
    1 Detention Sphere

    //Artifacts: 4
    3 Scroll Rack
    1 Helm of Obedience

    //Sideboard: 15
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Dovin's Veto
    2 Wear // Tear
    1 Narset, Parter of Veils
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Deafening Silence
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Back to Basics
    1 Detention Sphere
    1 Web of Inertia
    1 Helm of Obedience


    Counterbalance Curve MD / SB
    0: 20 / 1
    1: 16 / 5
    2: 13 / 2
    3: 4 / 6
    4: 1 / 1
    5: 4
    6: 2

    Blue: 22 / 6

    Might make room for a Jace or 2nd Detention Sphere MD.
    Entreat the Angels is a possible SB secondary win condition (that hits 3 on the CB curve) with Scroll Rack to enable the Miracle


    Card choice explanations:
    Enlightened Tutor - Instant tutor for any piece Rip/Field or Rip/Helm or CB/Rack and many toolbox tools. It's card disadvantage, but the raw power of Energy Field or CB or Helm is enough to make up for it. You are not playing a 1-for-1 parity game. You're trying to quickly stick a prison lock or combo, willing to accept card disadvantage for mana efficiency if it helps you sculpt or protect more easily, saving your mana for the permanents. You can also make up the card disadvantage by timing ETutor with Counterbalance out to counter a spell.

    Helm of Obedience - "5,T: Win the game". Also a tutorable 4 cmc for CB, relevant to answer Chalice @ 2 and Karn.

    On Thin Ice - 5th 1cmc removal (has been good in many Xerox decks) and way to ETutor a 1 cmc for Counterbalance

    Court of Cunning - draw engine, alternate wincon, tutorable 3 cmc for CB. With Energy Field + Terminus + spot removal, you can hold Monarch for a while.

    Scroll Rack - CB enabler, miracle enabler, card filtering & digging for combo pieces with fetchlands

    Detention Sphere - catch-all removal to problems in game 1, tutorable 3 cmc for CB, pitches to Force

    Engineered Explosives - more catch-all removal to problems at X=0,1,2 or 3. Tutorable 0 cmc for CB (vs LED decks).

    Deafening Silence - anti combo, but also prevents you from protecting cards with FoW on your turn, so be careful about use

    Ethersworn Canonist - alternate version of Silence that does let you protect Helm with FoW

    Narset, Parter of Veils - prevent blue decks from outdrawing you in the lategame, dig for combo pieces

    Web of Inertia - 4th copy of Energy Field that stops "attack" triggers and protects planeswalkers, also 3 cmc for CB

    Back to Basics - this deck is all about ETutoring into "I win", must play 1

    Pithing Needle, Wear // Tear, Dovin's Veto - flexible answers to many problems
    Last edited by FTW; 03-15-2021 at 07:14 PM.

  18. #258

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    I am really liking this! I already have the cards, so this likely where I will go with that crappy Lantern build I was running. Is Court of Cunning there for your alternative win con? It seems a little weak. Especially if you if you give your opponent the monarch. Loving this list!!
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  19. #259
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    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    I am really liking this! I already have the cards, so this likely where I will go with that crappy Lantern build I was running. Is Court of Cunning there for your alternative win con? It seems a little weak. Especially if you if you give your opponent the monarch. Loving this list!!
    It's there for tutorable card draw as well as the alternate wincon.

    I played a different version of RipHelm in the Oko meta (without Scroll Rack). It was pretty strong overall. But I found it had a lack of card draw to pull ahead in grindy long games, even when the lock is established or the board is under control. You shouldn't be durdling while the opponent has time to outdraw you and break your advantage. (Examples of when you need to tutor for cards over Helm are if you want to sculpt protection in hand before exposing Helm or the opponent has a Karn/Spyglass/Needle). For mechanic reasons, this deck can't support the usual suspects like Standstill, Snapcaster, Search for Azcanta, or Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath. As a solution I added Court of Grace. It was decent for draw and could threaten to steal back the Monarch but overall slow as a wincon, because it just turned on their dead removal spells and made StP lifegain suddenly relevant. Now I'm trying out Court of Cunning as it's easier on the mana, fits the CB curve better, pitches to Force, and synergizes with RiP better.

    Just having Scroll Rack should also smooth out those awkward topdecking games. I haven't tested Scroll Rack yet, but it seems good here for a lot of roles now that it's not a 3/3 Elk. It makes CB and Terminus much better, fights the discard that's seeing increased play now, and gives the deck better card selection. Rack also works with Court to clear 2 duds (you can target both players).

    I'm not too worried about opponent taking the Monarch. The deck is usually good at holding off dumb creatures if it's survived long enough to bother casting a Court. In those games drawing 2 cards per turn is huge for ensuring the lock doesn't fall. If creature-heavy decks (tribal aggro, D&T, Maverick) give it trouble, the 1 Court can be boarded out.

    Alternate wincon could be Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Entreat the Angels. The mainboard could be tweaked by a slot or two to make room. Jace was not in the old build because it was bad in the Oko meta. 1 copy in the 75 seems good here.

  20. #260

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    It's there for tutorable card draw as well as the alternate wincon.

    I played a different version of RipHelm in the Oko meta (without Scroll Rack). It was pretty strong overall. But I found it had a lack of card draw to pull ahead in grindy long games, even when the lock is established or the board is under control. You shouldn't be durdling while the opponent has time to outdraw you and break your advantage. (Examples of when you need to tutor for cards over Helm are if you want to sculpt protection in hand first or answer a Karn/Spyglass/Needle blocking Helm). For mechanic reasons, this deck can't support the usual suspects like Standstill, Snapcaster, Search for Azcanta, or Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath. As a solution I added Court of Grace. It was decent for draw and could threaten to steal back the Monarch but overall slow as a wincon, because it just turned on their dead removal spells and made StP lifegain suddenly relevant. Now I'm trying out Court of Cunning as it's easier on the mana, fits the CB curve better, pitches to Force, and synergizes with RiP better.

    Just having Scroll Rack should also smooth out those awkward topdecking games. I haven't tested Scroll Rack yet, but it seems good here for a lot of roles now that it's not a 3/3 Elk. It makes CB and Terminus much better, fights the discard that's seeing increased play now, and gives the deck better card selection.

    I'm not too worried about opponent taking the Monarch. The deck is usually good at holding off dumb creatures if it's survived long enough to bother casting a Court. In those games drawing 2 cards per turn is huge for ensuring the lock doesn't fall. If creature-heavy decks (tribal aggro, D&T, Maverick) give it trouble, the 1 Court can be boarded out.

    Alternate wincon could be Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Entreat the Angels. The mainboard could be tweaked by a slot or two to make room. Jace was not in the old build because it was bad in the Oko meta. 1 copy in the 75 seems good here.
    This is looking like a really tight list! If you're not worried about creatures too much then Court of Cunning should work well. You've also got Web of Inertia on the side just in case. I'm going to proxy the few cards I don't have and give this a spin.

    As far as Scroll Rack goes, I have tested it and it felt really strong to me. It was one of the best things I did with that crappy Lantern build. It's still not quite as good with CB as Top is because you can't just put it on top of your deck to counter 1cc spells but you can literally swap your entire hand for fresh cards and hopefully grab a fetchland to shuffle them all away. Also, you can put any card from your hand on top of the deck to interact with CB. It felt really really smooth to me.
    Last edited by Laser Brains; 03-16-2021 at 01:40 AM.
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