I'm not sure why you aren't running both Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void, if your combo is based around the interaction with Helm of the Leyline. 8/4 pieces for assembling the combo is more consistent than 4/4, and it gives you some serious gravehate against the majority of the format. I mean seriously, I can't think of very many decks these days that don't use their graveyard in at least some way.
Although I suppose if you're going alot heavier on the Board Control plan and plan to play the long and grindy game until you assemble you're combo, you might not need as many combo pieces. My only concern at that point would be: why not just play a better Control deck (Miracles) that has two different I-Win cards that don't actually need to combo together to win (Entreat and Jace)?
Also, mana acceleration is pretty mandatory for this combo to even be worth it. At least with an opening Leyline, you're looking at a 2 card 4 mana combo. With RIP, you become a 2 card 6 mana combo. Mox Diamond + Land Tax could be interesting, but the Sol Lands work too.
Don't you have to pay at least 1 to activate Helm of Obedience?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forumsOriginally Posted by Kyle
Yes
Hill Giant means business.
@ghkreiger
Hi!
I'm the ebayer I bought you the 3 helms!
@ Rest
I'm thinking on 2 archetypes if not 3 of this deck:
- Control Shell, as the Article of Starcity games, not bad designed deck. Still testing.
- Combo Oriented with city of traitors Lands and more acceleration
- In Parfait, this new build I'm focus still did not have a proper win cond, now it has.
I suggest to visit that Threat Deck Parfait.
I at least will definately run that combo in Parfait but by the moment 1 - 1 and 4 E. Tutors.
About c.b.:
I would not recommend running c.b. if it is not strictly neccessary, sure running 4 senseis and e.tutor is great, but you'll find that:
Nic Fit, UBG, The New Black Canadian, TES and Combo Archetypes includidng green for that splash will now crash you with c.b.
So the way will be playing more hard counters in the form of c.s.
Pure Control as Stanstill always had 2 main problems: Burn and Recursion, problems solved via Cunning mainly or Good Side,
Cunterbalance prevents this, however the Control rol can now be reinvented, going into a Pure Control Role (via hard counters instead of c.b. ) going well vs recursion (because of Rest) and still having a way to get Silver Bullets, Via E.Tutor. etc, etc.
All these are just thinkings, however I have to test all this Balance, No balance, Combo Oreinted, etc...
By the moment a 1 - 1 In Parfait is key, All I can say.
Just found this thread (Thanks Tao) and figured I would share what I think is the most optimal list so far:
// Lands
1 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
3 Polluted Delta
// Spells
4 Terminus
4 Rest In Peace
4 Helm of Obedience
3 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Spell Pierce
1 Humility
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 Rule of Law
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Vedalken Shackles
SB: 4 Energy Field
SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 3 Oblivion Ring
This still needs work (auromancy in SB?) but i would feel comfortable taking to to a tourney tomorrow if i had it ready. It has been incredibly strong, and with tops, and all the shuffles I have had games where i drop 5-6 combo pieces no problem when fighting through hate.
Thanks for that list, Technics! The only thing I'd suggest is the possibility of Stifle over Snare or Pierce. I also think that CB, while useful, isn't the right card for this deck, on account of the vast majority being 1 CMC, which hits mostly discard and Hierarchs (with the notable exception being Elves!)
Note: the problem with CB isn't that it's a powerful card. It is. It's just much more a meta call than it was. If you're in a heavy Storm/Elves meta, then sure, go ahead. If you're in a Dredge/Merfolk-heavy meta, then it'll be much less useful.
Played a match with this list against RUG, quick observations. Terminus feels like it could have been better as an Energy Field. You need that slot to gain time against aggro. Energy Field is easier to cast than Terminus (less mana intensive considering the setting up). Also the manabase felt a little shaky. I think it needs more lands and more basics.
If you want to make this a control deck I would look at this deck as a tested basis.
Rergarding to the list I think it has some lear mistakes:
this decks it is shut up by a resolved teeg, simple, we can't afford this.
Also swords should belong to the main, I would add some more jace (I'd like to see in can afford 4 main. we need c.a.!) and I'd like to discuss the number of e.tutor combo pieces in the control shell.
I think the most optimal is:
4 e.tutor
3 R. In peace
2 Helm.
Next I think I will play
3 senseis
3 Terminus
4 swords
Regarding the Counters Package:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 FoW
at least is a must
4 c.b. seems to be the norm as well, but at this point I will change the number of c.b. accordingly to hard counters and/or more key cards for E.Tutor and/or snapcasters. Still not sure.
And as playing 4 E. Tutors 3 should be the cards we should play at least:
1 Humilty
1 Moat
1 The New Great Oblivion Ring - this makes the puzzle vs Teeg in conjuntion with swords
1 Maybe E.E. not sure if neccesary
That what I've been thinking, the deck from starcity is the nearest idea in my opinion about what I intend on a control shell.
Reference to Control Shell:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...-The-City.html
hello guys, i liked very much the idea of the deck, because its a fair combo that can be played at any time and kill from nowhere. and all of that with FoW protection. its a really powerful idea.
but i think that we cant be like Miracle Control and sit there waiting our combo. we need to go very fast if required, kinda like Hive Mind or Omni-Tell.
After giving it further thought, I've coem to the conclusion that this list:
is wrong. The Gilded Lights have been surprisingly relevant. Perordain, however, have been remarkably underwelming, as have the Remands. I think that we only really need 2 of Helm, which opens us up for a slightly more toolbos approach. With this in mind, the changes I've made are:
-2 Helm of Obedience
-2 Remand
-4 Preordain
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Powder Keg
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Detention Sphere
+1 Phyrexian Metamorph
+2 other (Possibly Supression Field)
SB:
-1 Pithing Needle
+1 Vendilion Clique.
I do think it's a good idea to work with the Top/Counterbalance package. I think this could be an improved version of CounterThopter. The Thopter combo takes up time and mana, this combo just kills you immediately.
This makes Enlightened Tutor a better card because it helps assemble two combos and makes it much easier to assemble one of two combos in the early turns in some matchups.
It's nice to have a good plan vs. Show and Tell decks. Resolve a RIP, get Helm in hand and leave one mana open. Omniscience can't get around you. Petals kill won't work and the extra Emrakul turn kills them.The same has happened to Omni players who were facing Belcher, where they lose when the belcher player gets access to using three mana without casting any more spells and they have a Charbelcher in hand.
A Counterbalance deck needs a good curve for countering stuff. There are plenty of one drops with Tutor, Brainstorm, Swords and Top. Counterbalance and RIP on two. I would try a couple of Counterspells for rounding out the two drops and having more hard counters. Then add some Cliques and maybe a good artifact like Ensnaring Bridge to search up, which you can also put on top of your deck for CB. 2 Jace and 2 Helm round out the four drops.
This particular combo deck interacts with the rest of the format's combo decks and seems to have a good match-up against all of them. Counterbalance is a disaster for storm decks, Bridge is a disaster against Sneak Show, RIP is great against grave-based strategies like Dredge and Reanimator while also threatening against Omniscience when you could have a Helm in hand to win. It even has game against Belcher because of Fow and CB for later tries. This doesn't mean it beats all of them consistently, although it looks good in theory.
I would build something like this:
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Counterbalance
3 Rest in Peace
2 Counterspell
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 new UW wrath
4 Force of Will
23 lands including Karakas. Lots of fetchlands for optimal Top and Brainstorms and a bunch of basics which is easy as a UW deck. Possibly a sol land or two for quick Helms or Jaces but I don't think it's really necessary. There are 20 blue cards to support Force.
I like how this deck can ignore Pithing Needle where more dedicated RIP/Helm lists have trouble with that card. Here you can either use Helm to win or get CB/Top and win with Jace.
I like the thinking everybody is coming up with, but I want to see it all backed up by actual testing. I've played two dozen matches with the following list:
// Lands
8 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
// Spells
2 [AL] Helm of Obedience
2 [US] Energy Field
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [RTR] Rest in Peace
2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
4 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
4 [COM] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
1 [US] Back to Basics
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
SB: 4 [COM] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 [ZEN] Luminarch Ascension
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
Detention Sphere has pretty insane against S&T, but maybe I have a couple too many. Overall my bad match-up seems to be Qasali Pridemage (Maverick/Bant) decks. Not sure what can be done to fix this, other than maybe Needle main. I'd say the flex slots are 1 D-Sphere, and maybe the Spell Pierces. It would be nice to fit in some additional Energy Fields/Humilties/Moats/Ensnaring Bridges though, but the list is very tight.
One important note is I have taken all as many nonbasics as possible, due to Wasteland and Energy Field. I haven't had any mana problems, and we have answers to Emrakul anyways.
With the ultimate goal of essentially casting 5 CMC artifact, AND opponents will likely be attempting to go big over Counter Balance where is the lomg since forgotten Mana Drains?
It looks juicy in a counter war if you nail a Force too.
editOops banned nevermind.
Some variation of this list will most likely get enlightened tutor banned, seeing how RIP nukes all graveyards, it smashes 2/3 top decks and shuts down snapcaster and lingering souls. This will lead to a rise of goblins and Merfolk, which have no graveyard reliance, which ultimately leads to the rise of zoo.
Then enlightened tutor gets banned and we get to back up to today like it never happened.
Long story short If you really want zoo to be playable again, play this deck.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Would Scepter-Chant be good alongside RIP/Helm? Chant/Silence seem like great ways to protect the combo, are in your color, and provide an alternative route to victory. Enlightened Tutor is already a heavy emphasis, why not splash 1-2 Scepters in there to create a hard lock, giving you all the time in the world to set up RIP/Helm?
Just a crazy-ass idea...I love the deck concept and I really can't argue against the new blue Wrath and Jace as your power plays. Playing a 2-card combo makes me think that this is what Vintage must be like...but only from impression, I don't actually play vintage.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I actually think this is better than Energy Field since it stops Emrakul from attacking. Its not like Burn can't be stopped by CounterTop.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Pretty close to where I'm moving at the moment, I really like that list. I think the MD Needle is too good to not play (makes it really easy to lock out Maverick where otherwise it's really hard due to the Zeniths and has additional utility against Planeswalkers/Sneak Attack).
I've been trying a Future Sight as a tutorable way to match Jace-advantage and sometimes it has been awesome, sometimes lackluster. I'm unconvinced this deck actually needs four StPs, I'd replace one with a Porphyry Nodes (allows you to slowly clean the board against a Teeg plus Moms after setting up RIP/Field) and see how many others I can remove before creatures become a problem. The Field-lock has been that good.
Also, as bad as it is against Wasteland, I always want a single artifact land to tutor for, has come up a lot already and I remember how important being able to get mana was with ThopterFoundry.
I don't have low self-esteem, I have low esteem for everyone else. -Daria
Proud member of Team CAB
High Priest of the Church of BLA
CAB JaceTM
My articles
Hmm, I like Future Sight for the sole reason that you can e-tutor it to counter FOW when CB is out. I'll take a look into it. There have definitely been times where I'd have liked a Seat of the Synod (and times when I wanted Academy Ruins!)... I'll test SotS some more since it seems a lot more consistent than having one ofs of Karakas/Academy Ruins.
BTW, my friend moscowdemon listened to me and played my list and won a Trial at Magic-league with my list!
http://www.magic-league.com/deck/786...%20Pieces81982
2nd Legacy trial in a row won by RIP :) This time I was the pilot.
www.magic-league.com/deck/78645/legacy.html
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