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Thread: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

  1. #821
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    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    -4 Shardless
    -2 Jace
    -1 Sylvan
    -3 Visions
    -1 Forest

    +1 Savannah
    +2 GCharm
    +2 TS
    +1 Cage
    +1 NoSB
    +4 Meddling Mage

    Take out stuff that is slow to impact or cast for things that are not. Shardless is slow and IMO pretty garbage without Goyf to actually kill the opponent here; further you don't want to trade with them; you want to win. Lily is good because it causes immediate impact and tells them they have to go off now. Visions is bad because without shardless you have to wait 3 turns. You want Hymns because with Brainstorm you can afford dead cards for free wins. Don't grind with them; beat them to death with 4/5s and be done with it. Wastelands are still good; don't cut those! You only have two to start with. I've won a few games by wasting Elves off of mana when they got greedy or a Hymn did all of the work.

    This perspective comes from the idea that you're the aggro opponent here. It doesn't feel like it with all of these control elements, but they have the stronger late game of "LOL top-deck Hoof'd ya!" and "OOps, Progenitus!"; which is another reason you want to keep liliana.
    I feel like siding out Shardless is never an option, in any matchup. They are your main engine to help ensure you play spells you want to and they also pitch to FoW. I always side out goyfs for the MM's.

  2. #822
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    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by JayOSU View Post
    I feel like siding out Shardless is never an option, in any matchup. They are your main engine to help ensure you play spells you want to and they also pitch to FoW. I always side out goyfs for the MM's.
    By all means, test it out. It's just my hypothesis that keeping a deck that does stuff before the turn you lose is going to do better than a deck that is trying to assemble engines. I cut all the engines that didn't effect elves and made the deck proactive. If you keep shardless and not goyf you're more prone to dragging out the game and, I would guess, losing.

    I'd note that Shardless's CA is completely canceled by Reclamation sage and that he's prone to trading with garbage. On top of that? Goyf can profitably block small-hoof numbers and is quite good against the trample; so having that big butt may well save you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  3. #823
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    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Vs combo decks, why not cut all the slow cards like jace and visions and turn into a delver style deck? I have never cut agent post board and i never will.

  4. #824
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    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90 View Post

    I'm wondering how you guys would sideboard against Elves with this list? I played against it in the last round and went 2-1 against it, sideboarding in the following way: -2 Liliana -2 Jace -3 Hymn to Tourch, -1 Forest, -2 Tarmogoyf, -1 wasteland, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Night of Soul's Betrayal, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Savannah, +4 Meddling Mage, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Force of Will.
    With your list i think i would board like this:
    -2 Liliana
    -3 Hymn
    -1 Wasteland
    -3 Visions
    -1 Library
    -1 Jace

    +2 Charm
    +4 Mage
    +1 Savannah
    +1 Night of S
    +1 Cage
    +1 FoW
    +1 Thoughtseize

    In general, i would like this configuration. On the play i am more likely to leave in both jaces and not bring in the 3rd thoughtseize. Post board i dont think they try to combo you and play more of a board presence game.

  5. #825
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    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by James_Nguyen View Post
    Vs combo decks, why not cut all the slow cards like jace and visions and turn into a delver style deck? I have never cut agent post board and i never will.
    How is this different than what I'm suggesting other than Shardless? You have to get those slots from somewhere and cutting disruption seems dumb. You're replacing shardless with mage, so you run the same number of threats but loads of extra disruption. I think the slots we're really arguing over are Hymn vs. Shardless, which I could sort of see (but I'd rather land strong disruption and beat in with Goyfs than land no disruption and have a 4/5 and a 2/2)
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  6. #826
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    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Its not different, I just dont think Lilianas and Hymns are good vs elves post board

  7. #827

    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by James_Nguyen View Post
    With your list i think i would board like this:
    -2 Liliana
    -3 Hymn
    -1 Wasteland
    -3 Visions
    -1 Library
    -1 Jace

    +2 Charm
    +4 Mage
    +1 Savannah
    +1 Night of S
    +1 Cage
    +1 FoW
    +1 Thoughtseize

    In general, i would like this configuration. On the play i am more likely to leave in both jaces and not bring in the 3rd thoughtseize. Post board i dont think they try to combo you and play more of a board presence game.
    Thanks for the input man. Very much appreciated coming from you! The reason I kept visions in for the most part is to keep the blue count for Force of Will at about 19, thought they did help me grind out games as well. You bring up a good point though about Elves not going for the combo plan as much postboard. Do you think that helps make it okay to have only 16 blue spells in the deck (including FoW) postboard? Also, why do you prefer to keep Jace over Liliana?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysandros View Post
    I'm a crusty "old" player who would play nothing but Vintage, Legacy and 93/94 if I could, so I'm probably biased...but I'll never understand the draw to Modern. It's the Communist Soviet Union of MtG formats.
    In regards to Legacy:
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimoirePath View Post
    I dont know, I guess I like the anarchistic, outlaw format that allows everything and can thrive with or without the papal blessing.

  8. #828
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    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    I dont think liliana protects you from Natural order, which i think is their main way to win post board. Liliana going up doesnt do anything and going down kills one creature which is a pretty inefficient. They have been getting Worldspine Wurm not progenitus so shes not pretty bad vs that. If you ever try to ride her to her ultimate, they even have decays of their own to stop that plan. I dont have Mages in the sb like others so she may be ok if you can go mages for natural order and then play her, but i assume that the first mage always names glimpse. From my experience she have been not so good. Plus you have like 10 cards to bring in so something needs to get cut. I like jace because he can close games. If you spend the first couple of turns killing things and thoughtseizing them, it lets you reload and keep the cards flowing. Its even an out to Worldspine Wurm. So my game plan post board would be; kill everything that matters, play some crappy creatures and then slam jace. If you are worried about your blue card count then you can leave a force in the board and bring in the thoughtseizes.

  9. #829
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    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Also i am not a shardless bug savant. Just someone who has played the deck A LOT. We all have our own play styles so if you find something that works for you then by all means go with it.

  10. #830

    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by James_Nguyen View Post
    Also i am not a shardless bug savant. Just someone who has played the deck A LOT. We all have our own play styles so if you find something that works for you then by all means go with it.
    No problem man. I don't like to emphasize it but someone like you who has had big success with the deck means your opinion carries more weight than most. No offense to anyone else's and their opinions. I have looked at everyone else's posts as well though and will keep your guys' input in mind so thank you all!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysandros View Post
    I'm a crusty "old" player who would play nothing but Vintage, Legacy and 93/94 if I could, so I'm probably biased...but I'll never understand the draw to Modern. It's the Communist Soviet Union of MtG formats.
    In regards to Legacy:
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimoirePath View Post
    I dont know, I guess I like the anarchistic, outlaw format that allows everything and can thrive with or without the papal blessing.

  11. #831

    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    FWIW I like Hymn against Elves and Liliana is fine in small numbers. It depends on your blue card count also. That said, I haven't played that matchup in a long time.

  12. #832

    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by GerryT View Post
    FWIW I like Hymn against Elves and Liliana is fine in small numbers. It depends on your blue card count also. That said, I haven't played that matchup in a long time.
    That's the main reason I kept Ancestral Visions postboard against Elves last time I played it at my lgs. It kept my blue count at like 19 or 20 (with Force of Will). Would you be okay going down to 16 blue cards or would you still be more comfortable keeping it at 19 or 20 Gerry?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysandros View Post
    I'm a crusty "old" player who would play nothing but Vintage, Legacy and 93/94 if I could, so I'm probably biased...but I'll never understand the draw to Modern. It's the Communist Soviet Union of MtG formats.
    In regards to Legacy:
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimoirePath View Post
    I dont know, I guess I like the anarchistic, outlaw format that allows everything and can thrive with or without the papal blessing.

  13. #833
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    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by GerryT View Post
    FWIW I like Hymn against Elves and Liliana is fine in small numbers. It depends on your blue card count also. That said, I haven't played that matchup in a long time.
    Gerry, I heard you saying that you are planning to play this list again this weekend. I know that the meddling mage sideboard plan was implemented after you stopped piloting this deck. What are your thoughts about potentially boarding 4 mage and a savannah? I have just put this sideboard plan together to test it out, but haven't really seen it in action yet. thoughts?

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    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Why do you like hymns gerry? To me, the the match up feels like it is about very specific cards and not about card advantage.

  15. #835

    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    I've cut some number of goyfs in the elf matchup before when bringing in the mages. I cut the forest and would consider cutting the tarpit. I'd cut the jace. I'd cut 1 Lilliana. I'd cut some number of visions. Just my 2cents.

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    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by James_Nguyen View Post
    Why do you like hymns gerry? To me, the the match up feels like it is about very specific cards and not about card advantage.
    I realize I'm not Gerry, but I want to ask why you would cut the hymns for this matchup? the individual cards in elves are terrible and require the rest of the cards around them to be any good. It seems to me that the more resources they are denied, the better. I used to play team Italia before TNN showed up, and I played a lot of games vs. elves. It was a pretty interesting matchup, but the games that I could win consistently were often the ones where my sweeper came down after shredding their hand. It prevents them from rebuilding quickly and would give me time to take over. That deck doesn't have U though, and maybe the counter magic changes the need for discard?

  17. #837

    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Hello everyone! I will be running Shardless BUG in an upcoming large tournament and I cannot decide on the 15th sideboard slot. If I could get some help/suggestions I would greatly appreciate it. Here is the list.

    Shardless BUG (60 Cards)

    Lands 22

    2 Bayou
    2 Creeping Tar Pit
    2 Misty Rainforest
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Snow-Covered Swamp
    2 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Wasteland

    Creatures 14

    2 Baleful Strix
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Shardless Agent
    4 Tarmogoyf

    Instants 11

    4 Abrupt Decay
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Force of Will

    Sorceries 9

    4 Ancestral Vision
    1 Hymn to Tourach
    3 Thoughtseize
    1 Toxic Deluge

    Planeswalkers 4

    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2 Liliana of the Veil

    Sideboard 14

    2 Disfigure
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Force of Will
    2 Golgari Charm
    2 Hymn to Tourach
    2 Nihil Spellbomb
    1 Null Rod
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Toxic Deluge


    So what should the 15th sideboard card be? Please explain your answer.

  18. #838
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    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by drocker23 View Post
    Hello everyone! I will be running Shardless BUG in an upcoming large tournament and I cannot decide on the 15th sideboard slot. If I could get some help/suggestions I would greatly appreciate it. Here is the list.

    Shardless BUG (60 Cards)

    Lands 22

    2 Bayou
    2 Creeping Tar Pit
    2 Misty Rainforest
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Snow-Covered Swamp
    2 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Wasteland

    Creatures 14

    2 Baleful Strix
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Shardless Agent
    4 Tarmogoyf

    Instants 11

    4 Abrupt Decay
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Force of Will

    Sorceries 9

    4 Ancestral Vision
    1 Hymn to Tourach
    3 Thoughtseize
    1 Toxic Deluge

    Planeswalkers 4

    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2 Liliana of the Veil

    Sideboard 14

    2 Disfigure
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Force of Will
    2 Golgari Charm
    2 Hymn to Tourach
    2 Nihil Spellbomb
    1 Null Rod
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Toxic Deluge


    So what should the 15th sideboard card be? Please explain your answer.
    Jitte ☺ it helps against burn, and is great for any fair matchup.

  19. #839
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    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    I like Jitte as card #15 if you drop the Disfigures; it looks like removal overload otherwise. I don't like Flusterstorm at all, though - boarding it in means brining some number of Agents out (or opening yourself up to bad Cascades), which means losing blue cards, etc. It's probably better as either Duress or Therapy. Also, Krosan Grip is conspicuous by its absence.

  20. #840

    Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by btm10 View Post
    I like Jitte as card #15 if you drop the Disfigures; it looks like removal overload otherwise. I don't like Flusterstorm at all, though - boarding it in means brining some number of Agents out (or opening yourself up to bad Cascades), which means losing blue cards, etc. It's probably better as either Duress or Therapy. Also, Krosan Grip is conspicuous by its absence.
    i think flusterstorm is just fine. seeming as how the matchups you really want them in are the matchups where you don't wanna be just throwing out hasty shardless agents. you're more interested in casting your hand hate spells and holding back counterspells. shardless agent can stay in post board, but i think it's better that you have a grip on the game before you cast him otherwise yea, you might durdle into random flusterstorms. if you've torn their hand apart and you can just cast shardless agent into whatever, it probably doesn't matter at that point then what you cascade into honestly. you should have the game wrapped up. the argument can be made for flusterstorm that they can get rid of it with duress or therapy, but they can also get rid of meddling mage with abrupt decay or chain of vapor. but i think flusterstorm is more useful in more matchups. i am referring to the combo matchups mainly of course. if you don't have flusterstorm then you have to have meddling mage which i disagree with.

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