[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[drocker23]

after watching the invitational and some of the open series this weekend, i'm starting to consider the meddling mage sideboard plan. reason being is i wonder if going forward, people are going to be bringing a lot of combo to this event to beat the fair decks, or if they are just going to play what they saw in the invitational which would pretty much be shardless bug, miracles, and deathblade, unless people also jump on the u/g infect bandwagon. i'm wondering if cutting the discard for cards like sylvan library and adding more wastelands makes your deck more threat intensive in the fair creature matchups. i may want meddling mage vs miracles but i'm wondering what a final 75 would look like for next weekend. 22 or 23 lands? meddling mages or not sb? if one of you all who plays shardless bug all the time consistantly wouldn't mind posting a deck list post invitational results, i sure would appreciate it.

[Whitefaces]

Adding white gives you access to Gaddok Teeg too which is great against miracles.

[MinosSnt]

I don't understand why you would like to play Gaddok against Miracle because firstly it's a reaally good match up, and secondly, gaddok shuts down your own Jace.

By the way, you have more Plainswalkers than Miracle, Decay for Counterbalance and Vision to make more CA, so you should explain why it can be hard. With the sideboard you can add null rod against top and Meddling Mage (which is a really good hate against all combo, more than fluster that you can cascade into)...

[exallium]

I'm looking at the list that top 8'd Washington and saw 2 chills in the board. What do people think of this as a hedge against Burn? I realize we can cascade into it, and that burn is in general a bad matchup for us, but was wondering if there's anything else we could be using to pull the burn matchup into our favour without having two sideboard slots dedicated to a "probably just won the game card" vs burn.

[Whitefaces]

I'm playing a fairly stock list tonight at my LGS, but I don't take these nights too seriously so want something a bit different. I'm probably just going to throw Groves and Punishing Fire in there with a Keranos. Anything else worth trying out?

[exallium]

I'm playing a fairly stock list tonight at my LGS, but I don't take these nights too seriously so want something a bit different. I'm probably just going to throw Groves and Punishing Fire in there with a Keranos. Anything else worth trying out?

One-of restore balance for value.

[Lejay]

Troll them with a playset of strixes+opposition. Very nice versus sneak show and death and taxes.

[infiniteJ]

Ended up running Lejay's list at the SCG invitational and Legacy open. -1STP +1 disfigure. -1 wasteland +1 creeping tarpit b/c I got nervous about colored mana and miracles. -1 null rod +1 pithing needle because I like the flexibility to hit sneak attack (came up in two rounds) and thespian stage.

Deck performed great. I didn't miss baleful strixes (only 2 delver matchups in 16 rounds) or notion thief. Blew people out w/ deluge and night of souls betrayal. The extra jace was better than notion thief in the board. I've been playing this deck for a while now and firmly stand by the no discard in the main. Have even stolen plenty of g1's vs combo. The white splash has been a nice way to keep the blue count and threat level high post board vs combo.

5-2-1 in legacy in the invitational. I drew a tight 3 games vs miracles early. Lost to dnt with a ton of hate and keranos/mulliganning out of UWR stoneblade (not delver/miracles). I can't remember all the matchups but I think the wins were vs bug delver, the mirror, miracles, monored sneak attack, and ?. I went 3-3 in standard though b4 dropping.

Started out 4-0 in the Sunday open against BUG Nic fit, DNT, Sneak/show, and miracles before losing to Shehar Shenhar DNT in a really tight g3. Mindcensor prevented two fetches and a Deluge blowout. Lost next to punishing jund w/ md gamble and life from the loam. Ended up scooping and dropping at 5-2 when my Non-shardless bug opponent wouldn't concede to my overwhelming board in turns. No reason for us both to be dead in the tournament and I was tired/hungry.

[infiniteJ]

Also, having basic swamp/forest was great throughout as I faced multiple bloodmoons. I drew out of a bloodmoon lock vs Monored sneak and show. I even searched up two basics vs BUG nic fit for the blow out.

[Whitefaces]

Troll them with a playset of strixes+opposition. Very nice versus sneak show and death and taxes.

I totally would if I had any Oppositions!

I was playing with the idea of having some Disciple of Deceit and a toolbox of two drops. Sylvan Library, Snapcaster Mage, Hymn to Tourach, Life from the Loam, Golgari Charm and Dimir Charm as well as Goyfs and Decays.

[mtgmafia]

Troll them with a playset of strixes+opposition. Very nice versus sneak show and death and taxes.

Lejay,

I've been moving my list closer to what you're running. I have the playset of Force and i've cut my discard down to 2 thoughtsieze main. I've added a forest, and have moved away from hymn. I've been very impressed so far! I expected to really dislike this configuration initially, but the mana is much better without hymn, the deck is faster, and it's able to maintain it's advantage better with the 4 of force. Thanks for bringing some interesting innovations to this list. :)

[mtgmafia]

James,

I wanted to get your thoughts on flusterstorm. I decided to test it out of the side, and while I expected it to be weak, I have instead found that it is a pretty impressive card. It does set you up to occassionally have a bad cascade, but the upsides seem to outway the low% that you might only get a 2/2 out of your agent. Are you still on this card in your side? If so, how many are you running and what matchups do you bring them in for besides obvious combo decks? Miracles and delver? thanks

[James_Nguyen]

James,

I wanted to get your thoughts on flusterstorm. I decided to test it out of the side, and while I expected it to be weak, I have instead found that it is a pretty impressive card. It does set you up to occassionally have a bad cascade, but the upsides seem to outway the low% that you might only get a 2/2 out of your agent. Are you still on this card in your side? If so, how many are you running and what matchups do you bring them in for besides obvious combo decks? Miracles and delver? thanks

I am actually a big fan of spell pierce atm. I feel like its better than Flusterstorm right now. It counters bloodmoon, which is important right now vs show and tell and miracles. Countering Jace and sometimes top on the play is nice too. Flusterstorm is sometimes a hard counter for show and tell, which is a plus, but I like the fact that pierce can counter a fast show/sneak/moon. I dont think the bad cascade is really a thing, you play about 25 cascade targets pre and post board. Even after playing 5 of those cards, theres still 20 left. So only a 5% chance you get unlucky. I am playing one right now, im thinking about playing 1 of each just to hedge.

[swoop]

I took out some stuff, put in a few alurens, a cavern harpy and imperial painter. Now I've got a fun deck. Try it

[TheHeff]

Hi all, recently made the switch from BUG Delver to Shardless and I'm loving it! The deck always seems like it has answers and insane card advantage/quality. Fits my playstyle much better and I've been playing the B/G shell for a long time in both Modern Jund and Legacy. My full list is in my sig below but it's a pretty stock list, 2 Strix, 2/2 Jace/Lili split, 3 FoW, 2 Hymn + 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Deluge MD. My SB is duplicated below because I have some questions:

2x Disfigure
2x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
2x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Null Rod
1x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge

The Null Rod is a carryover from my BUG Delver list, it's a ridiculous card against Storm (probably one of our worst matchups), Stoneforge decks, Aether Vial decks, and even splashes some Miracles hate against Top. It's so good sometimes I want two, it's hard to believe some lists don't play it! My real question is Flusterstorm- I see why it's in the SB, but as has been discussed at length, it's a bad cascade and it forces you to hold mana open and play more reactively. It is blue, however, and I guess it's useful if you tend to heavily cut Visions/Shardless in combo matchups to keep your blue count up? Wouldn't they be better spots for a third Lili, another Thoughtseize/Hymn to max out on discard? Also, I have a single Cage SB for Dredge/Elves MU's, has anyone found it to be pointless? Most lists I see are content with Spellbombs. Thanks for any advice you guys have!

[drocker23]

Hi all, recently made the switch from BUG Delver to Shardless and I'm loving it! The deck always seems like it has answers and insane card advantage/quality. Fits my playstyle much better and I've been playing the B/G shell for a long time in both Modern Jund and Legacy. My full list is in my sig below but it's a pretty stock list, 2 Strix, 2/2 Jace/Lili split, 3 FoW, 2 Hymn + 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Deluge MD. My SB is duplicated below because I have some questions:

2x Disfigure
2x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
2x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Null Rod
1x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge

The Null Rod is a carryover from my BUG Delver list, it's a ridiculous card against Storm (probably one of our worst matchups), Stoneforge decks, Aether Vial decks, and even splashes some Miracles hate against Top. It's so good sometimes I want two, it's hard to believe some lists don't play it! My real question is Flusterstorm- I see why it's in the SB, but as has been discussed at length, it's a bad cascade and it forces you to hold mana open and play more reactively. It is blue, however, and I guess it's useful if you tend to heavily cut Visions/Shardless in combo matchups to keep your blue count up? Wouldn't they be better spots for a third Lili, another Thoughtseize/Hymn to max out on discard? Also, I have a single Cage SB for Dredge/Elves MU's, has anyone found it to be pointless? Most lists I see are content with Spellbombs. Thanks for any advice you guys have!

i'm having a few of the same issues you are. although i'm playing 3 thoughtseize 1 hymn main deck, so i need an extra hymn in the board, i have also noticed that most people over the last year either run grafdigger's cage, or spellbomb. i don't think you need cage as badly vs elves because we play toxic deluge maindeck. so as long as we can keep them off Craterhoof Behemoth whether it be hardcast or via Natural Order, we can let them overextend and roflstomp them with Toxic Deluge. Golgari Charm also helps quite a bit too. Dredge and Reanimator are both decks I wouldn't mind having Cage for over spellbomb, but these decks have been played fairly infrequently lately that i'm not sure if another GY hate card is something you really want. I guess perhpas it depends on the decks you're looking to face. i'm trying to figure that out myself. what decks i'm expecting to face in st. louis so i know how to round out my sideboard. i know people talk a lot about how bad it is to cascade into flusterstorm but no one ever talks about how awful it feels to cascade into thoughtseize. and most of the time, it's just as bad. so don't let people use the cascade argument to divert you from playing flusterstorm if you want to. because in my opinion, a bad cascade isn't good enough to board shardless agent out, or not run flusterstorm at all. if you played meddling mage then there would be no need for flusterstorm. but i'm not sure that's where the decks wants to be right now.

on a side note: taking out shardless agent in a combo matchup doesn't sound unreasonable but not because of the fear of cascading into flusterstorm. i'm not sure that card advantage matters too much in combo matchups. what i want is a bunch of discard, maybe a counterspell of some kind for insurance, and a threat to win the game. shardless agent isn't really that threat. not sure i really wanna tap out on 3 for shardless agent and give them the green light. however, a shardless agent a few turns later, or a brainstorm + shardless agent + hymn to tourach to blow out their hand is fine. so it'll be up to you and your judgment whether or not to keep shardless agent in post board against the decks you bring flusterstorm in against. just don't base it all of the potential for a bad cascade. also, someone told me once that having flusterstorm against elves isn't bad either. usually they can cast a bunch of spells in a turn or at the very least, it can choke their mana some when they try to combo out. something to think about.

[Einherjer]

Streaming Shardless BUG with Patrick Dickmann on http://www.twitch.tv/ofe1ia
Will start in about 2 hours from the date of this post. Come join, watch and enjoy!

Greetings

[mtgmafia]

I am actually a big fan of spell pierce atm. I feel like its better than Flusterstorm right now. It counters bloodmoon, which is important right now vs show and tell and miracles. Countering Jace and sometimes top on the play is nice too. Flusterstorm is sometimes a hard counter for show and tell, which is a plus, but I like the fact that pierce can counter a fast show/sneak/moon. I dont think the bad cascade is really a thing, you play about 25 cascade targets pre and post board. Even after playing 5 of those cards, theres still 20 left. So only a 5% chance you get unlucky. I am playing one right now, im thinking about playing 1 of each just to hedge.

In testing so far, I have been very impressed with the one of spell pierce. It answers a lot of problems efficiently, and nobody is playing around it. Seems like a great way to gain an edge on miracles especially and still does almost everything I want it to against combo.

[TheHeff]

So I've finally settled on a list I'm pretty comfortable with but I'm having some issues working out how to sideboard. I realize some of these might be noob questions, but I'm new to legacy (only have about a year of exp) and am a total noob with this deck (only played about 20 games with it). I also realize that every situation and sideboard choice can be different depending on deck "quirks" and the way an opponent is playing/sideboarding, I'm just looking for some broad-strokes advice on these questions moving forward until I get enough exp to know exact numbers/situations. Thanks in advance!

1. When do you add extra SB discard? Only against combo?
2. Are there decks where Hymn is better than Thoughtseize, and vice-versa?
3. Do you take out Jace against decks like ANT, RUG Delver?
4. Do you take out Lili against Elves and D&T?
5. Do you keep FoW in against any non-combo decks? (RUG Delver or Miracles)
6. When do you take out the Shardless/Visions package? Any times where it's only Visions or only Shardless?
7. If you must have them, Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce? If not, what do you add? Extra Lili?

[Whitefaces]

1. When do you add extra SB discard? Only against combo?
   
   Usually, though I might bring in Thoughtseize vs SFM decks.
   
   
2. Are there decks where Hymn is better than Thoughtseize, and vice-versa?
   
   I find Hymn to be better vs storm decks as they need a critical mass to go off. TS is much better against combo decks that are matching A and B together (Sneak and Show for example).
   
   
3. Do you take out Jace against decks like ANT, RUG Delver?
   
   Yes and yes. I take out Jace vs all Delver decks as their plan is to screw you on mana, you just don't want 4 CMC cards in your deck. And he's too slow vs storm combo decks too. Though you absolutely keep him in vs SnT as the bounce is very relevant.
   
   
4. Do you take out Lili against Elves and D&T?
   
   Vs Elves I used to keep in one or two as they are most probably boarding in Progen, but you have to have a sweeper to set that up. She's just a 3 mana edict which gains you a life otherwise, which is nowhere near good enough. I board them all out now though as we have Deluge. 10 life is a lot, but it is at least an answer to the big scary monster. VS DnT I board her out. The edict can be very good, but a lot of players have Wilt Leaf Liege now which just wrecks us. Don't give them the chance of popping it into play for free.
   
   
5. Do you keep FoW in against any non-combo decks? (RUG Delver or Miracles)
   
   I keep FoW in against Delver decks, you just have to be very careful and pick your moments to use them. Try and play around Daze at all times, spell pierce is harder to play around. But the Delver matchup is about board presence rather than CA. VS miracles, having the FoW to stop a T1 top can win a game, and it's an answer for their Jace and/or Entreat that they only have 4 cards of CMC 5 to flip to CB (unless they have Keranos too).
   
   
6. When do you take out the Shardless/Visions package? Any times where it's only Visions or only Shardless?
   
   I haven't ever cut either completely, they're a huge backbone of the deck. I have shaved one or two Visions and replace them with TS against combo decks though.
   
   
7. If you must have them, Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce? If not, what do you add? Extra Lili?
   
   I'd aim for a split. Fluster is obviously better than pierce at what it does, but with Miracles being everywhere there are a lot of annoying Enchantments hanging around.
   
   

There's a chance people will disagree with me, but this is how I SB.