Originally Posted by kingtk3
I have a lot of experience with shardless, and your maindeck is almost identical to mine. The only difference is I move one of the deluges to the sideboard and I have a 3rd Lili, and for the record I think either configuration is fantastic in a creature meta.
First off, I would take out the Notion Thief for a Golgari charm, so let's assume that you have.
against DnT: Turn your 2 for 1's into 1 for 2's.
-4 FoW
+1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
+1 Golgari Charm
+2 Pithing Needle
The only spell in their deck FoW will most likely do anything against is Aether Vial, and I'd rather just let them use the card, then kill everything they put in play with it. If you live long enough to resolve NOSB you will win the game. Toxic Deluge will win the game. Golgari charm will almost win the game by itself. Take over the game with Goyfs and Planeswalkers.
Lands is much harder, and unlike DnT you will still be unfavored even after sideboard, but you could improve the matchup. I have less experience with this matchup but I still have some theories, and I still don't like Fow here:
-2 Toxic Deluge
-4 Fow
-2 Baleful Strix
-1 Sylvan Library (this card is fine but we need more room)
+2 Surgical Extractions
+4 Meddling Mage (should probably name Punishing fire then Loam)
+1 Savannah
+2 Pithing needle (almost always naming Thespian's Stage or whatever it's copying)
Against RG combo lands with your board I'd probably go:
+1 Savannah
+4 Meddling Mage
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Pithing Needle
-1 Forest
-4 FoW
-2 Toxic Deluge
-1 Baleful Strix
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
Surgical is obviously awesome, Pikula is sweet if you can get two since the first can name Punishing Fire and the Second can get Loam. Needle can name Thespian Stage. FoW seems pointless against them unless you can snipe a turn 1 Gamble/Exploration, Pulse seems bad because they don't have a ton of non-land permanents and Decay can hit everything they do have, Strix is too slow to be a clock and only buys you a turn against Marit Lage, Deluge is just not a card since you're not gonna pay 20 life to kill a Marit Lage. I could see Duress on the play also being ok.
Against D&T, I'd go:
+1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Golgari Charm (if you have it)
-4 FoW
Force isn't good against D&T and those are basically the only 4 cards in your sideboard that I can see making a real impact. I suppose Thoughtseize is fine as well as a way to get equipment or Mirran Crusader out of their hand if you want it
Not sure about the 4c Loam matchup, I haven't played against it a ton. Seems tough though since that deck kinda plays like a hybrid of jund/maverick/lands. I'd probably want all the same cards that I have against lands but use Pithing Needle for Knight of the Reliquary or Wasteland if they're on the recurring Wasteland plan against you. Also, if you can kill a Knight early on it might be worth it to Surgical it out of the deck. I normally hate that play against "fair" decks but in this case, that deck is usually pretty low on actual win conditions and if you get rid of all their Knights they lose a lot of tricks against you and might not have a card that can actually kill you quickly.
From nothing came teeth.
As a former Esper Deathblade player, I found the transition into Shardless BUG to be a comfortable shift after the cleansing of legacy (aka purging the format of Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time). The first four round event at a LGS was a bit rough, but I got over it. At GP Atlanta, I played it in most of the legacy challenge events to a weekend record of 10-3-3. My losses were twice to the same Miracles player though they were very tight and I beat other Miracles pilots as well as a round to Infect. All draws were intentional so I could go eat food. I felt like the deck was well positioned against everything and always had lines open up.
Based on some previous comments, I wanted to highlight a line to beat Lands. I played a very skilled player twice in the weekend. I cannot understate how good Deathrite Shaman is in this match up, he is the route to victory. I stick it on turn one and counter a Punishing Fire with Force of Will in order to eat the Punishing Fire. Twice I regenerated my Deathrite Shaman in response to a Punishing Fires via Golgari Charm (this card was an all-star!). In two of our six games, I won because I would Force of Will a turn one Exploration or Crop Rotation cast off his Mox Diamond and follow up with destroying his land with Wasteland and/or Abrupt Decay his Mox Diamond or drop the Null Rod to turn it off. I really did mana deny the lands player long enough to stick Shardless Agent and Tarmogoyf for additional card advantage. Pithing Needing would name Thespian Stage, and if I got two I put them both out with the same name to hedge against Krosan Grip if available.
Creatures [15]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Instants [11]
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
Sorceries [9]
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
Planeswalkers [3]
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Lands [22]
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard
2 Duress
1 Engineered Plaque
1 Force of Will
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Notion Thief
1 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
My questions are aside from Liliana of the Veil, how have people beat Miracles consistently? Is there a modification that would help for that match up?
I have not found Jace, Vryn's Prodigy too good in the main and was considering dropping it. I would shift Jace, the Mind Sculptor in from the board and have a free sideboard slot.
Any suggestions on the sideboard? I may have an open slot or two if I drop the Notion Thief (it is fun to catch a JMS activation, but people do catch on). I like the idea of Sylvan Library but am open to hearing recommendations.
Is null rod really helpful in shutting down RG lands? I don't think we hit a lot of cards in that deck. I'm pretty inexperienced in this match up as well. Would appreciate your inputs.
Cheers
Thank you.
For the RG Lands MU I think that meddling mages for punishing and loam are right, but one of my friends told me that it's risky to side in another color against a deck with waste recursion. In a sense he is right because many things can go wrong (punishing killing DRS, waste on savannah), but the mages can effectively shut down the Lands' engines.
However I don't understand why we should keep the decays in: they basically hit only sideboard cards like spheres and choke (maindeck targets are only exploration and mox), and I don't even know if they will side them all (choke obviously yes). Wouldn't FoW be better because it can hit crop rotations and gamble too?
What about this?
+4 Meddling mage
+1 Savannah
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Pithing needle
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-2 Toxic Deluge
-2 Abrupt Decay
-1 Bayou
-1 Force of Will
-2 Tarmogoyf
I like that Strix can block Marit lage for an attack, giving time to Lili or Jace to take care of him.
Against D&T I would like to side in all the cards that you mentioned plus 2 Thoughtseize because, as you said, they are good against stoneforge and crusader; what other 2 cards could I side out alongside the Fows? I'm thinking at a combination of Jace, Ancestral and Sylvan, but since I haven't played against D&T very much I don't know what are the best cards against them.
Ignorance is strength
Your friend is very, very wrong. You sideboard in Meddling Mages. First one names Punishing Fire 99% of the time, then the second should be Loam, Gamble or potentially Crop Rotation. Kind of dependent on what's going on in the game. If you've got it under control with a DRS and access to Waste for a naturally drawn combo Gamble is probably correct.
You sideboard out goyf as you want to maximize your cascades from shardless into disruption pieces, you need to treat this like a combo matchup.
Don't side out Force of Will, you need it for T1 Exploration/Manabond, a tempo counter on p fire/loam to eat it with shaman or a late game gamble/crop rotation for combo.
Don't side out a Bayou either, they're trying to manascrew you.
Side out all Visions, this matchup isn't about card advantage. Thoughtseize/Duress, while not ideal on the draw, are much better. Especially as post board you can expect them to cut Manabonds and bring in hateful permanents like Spheres, Choke, Trini etc. Whether that's correct from their side or not, people generally do it against me. This is another reason to keep decays in, but you need them for Exploration too.
So, if I understand correctly, the sideboard plan should be:
+4 meddling mage
+1 savannah
+2 surgical extraction
+2 pithing needle
+1 duress
-4 tarmogoyf
-4 ancestral vision
-2 toxic deluge
right?
Ignorance is strength
In my opinion, yes. I would cut the Pulse for the second Duress too.
Discard isn't ideal in the matchup, but it's better than the alternatives.
I would rather drop a decay than the pulse, since I saw some lists that play one or two planeswalker in the side. And anyway pulse can deal with multiple spheres/explorations...
Anyway I don't play the MU often so it's only speculation from the part of mine.
Ignorance is strength
I've not seen any lands deck run PWers in the side, or at least one that's done well.
The one mana difference between Decay and Pulse is bigger than you think. You have two basics, that means you can drop a dual and cast decay on a Sphere, the Pulse would need a DRS or a turn not being Wastelanded (I know not every game goes this route, but it's fairly common). Decay is also better vs Port for obvious Reasons.
Miracles is basically the only matchup where I've found JVP to be worth it, as he's very good there. But more generally, when you beat Miracles it's because you succeeded at Plan A - generate a ton of card advantage. Liliana is one way of doing that and helps hold your slower starts together, but any way that you can generate card advantage improves that matchup. I've won with Baleful Strix beats more than once, though Hymn is arguably only a conditional 2-for-1 (they need to have at least 2 cards in hand) and so I'm less keen on it when the goal isn't to stop them from ever getting their feet on the ground like it is with Delver. Similarly, you need Force and shouldn't board Decay out even if they're cutting Counterbalance since it's the best way to break up early Entreats for 2-3 Angels.
Based on your board, yes. FWIW, I prefer Nihil Spellbomb to Surgical in this deck. I think Pulse and Duress are both pretty marginal, so it's mostly a wash. I've never seen Lands board in Planeswalkers.
I'll second this. I have two leylines in these spots, though they have been a Nihil Spellbomb and something else in the past. Point is, Extraction is a reactive card, Leyline and Spellbomb are proactive which work better with Shardless. While Surgical may be better than Spellbomb in this specific matchup, you're running the risk of bad cascades off agents.
On discard. Like I said, it's not ideal, but better than Pulse. And if you were to only bring in three, cut a thoughtseize as the 2 life might be relevant and they do the same thing.
Hey all,
First time poster so please bear with me for formatting errors and the like. I've been working on building this deck for approximately six months now and will be going to an event this evening. At this point I am missing the majority of the duals and wasteland from the deck. My list at the current moment is
Land (20)
1x Bayou
2x Breeding Pool
2x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Darkslick Shores
1x Forest
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Watery Grave
Planeswalker (5)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Liliana of the Veil
Sorcery (8)
4x Ancestral Vision
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge
Creature (14)
2x Baleful Strix
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmogoyf
Instant (12)
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library
Sideboard (15)
2x Arcane Laboratory
1x Baleful Strix
1x Chill
1x Disfigure
1x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Hymn to Tourach
2x Krosan Grip
2x Pithing Needle
1x Seal of Primordium
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Toxic Deluge
I cut down two lands on the recommendation of a friend of mine who frequently plays legacy. He said that wasteland is not a mana source most of the time anyway so if I did not have it it would be better to run more spells. My only dual at the moment is the bayou so I subbed out duals for shocks. Asking the obvious questions I suppose, is the list playable in this state, what changes could I make to make it more playable (aside from purchasing the remaining pieces) and what nuances should I pay particular attention too? I play GBx in modern so I'm hoping those skills translate somewhat.
Cheers,
Talon
With Shocks instead of Duals you're probably better off playing Delver since it doesn't use its life total as a resource as much as Shardless. If you're sold on Shardless I think a Fetch/Tango/Shock/Basic manabase is better that all Shocks. 4 Liliana is a lot - they're pretty hideous in multiples except against D&T, so I'd cut 2 for Wastelands if you have them. The Darkslick Shores is definitely better as basic Island, and I'd try to work a U/B Tango Land in somewhere. Wasteland IS a mana source in this deck a lot of the time, and I'd want it to deal with problematic nonbasics like Karakas and Grove of the Burnwillows. I'm not a fan of the Strix in the board, and Arcane Lab is bad if you aren't running more countermagic. What's your expected meta?
I was told that Delver required wastelands (which I don't yet have) so I should play a midrange variant. The argument as I recall was mana denial was really important to Team America Delver decks.
If I were to cut Liliana's without being able to replace them with wastelands what would the optimal replacement be?
I'll look into rebuilding the manabase for sure. Is running a budget wasteland such as ghost quarter viable given that it is used to remove specific lands rather than mana screw your opponent?
The board is a disaster, I'm really new to legacy so I looked at winning lists and cobbled it together.
Metawise I know there is: Tin fins, UB reanimator w/ show and tell, Deathblade and a Jund player. That is by no means an exhaustive list as the turnout is usually around 15 people.
Thanks for your help so far :).
What's the logic behind running a Savannah over a Scrubland? Fetch-wise it doesn't matter, as you'll only have one fetch that can't get it either way. Is the additional green source for Decay that much more important in the matchups you'd bring in Mages against? I feel like I'd much rather have more black for discard if the Mages are coming in already.
Scrubland pairs with Windswept Heath as the last fetchland, and Bayou is the only black source Heath can find in games where you don't board the Scrubland in. The only lands Marsh Flats can't find are basic Forest and Trop, which are the least important lands in the deck.
Your friend is right that you really can't play BUG Delver without Wasteland. With that meta I'd do something like:I was told that Delver required wastelands (which I don't yet have) so I should play a midrange variant. The argument as I recall was mana denial was really important to Team America Delver decks.
If I were to cut Liliana's without being able to replace them with wastelands what would the optimal replacement be?
I'll look into rebuilding the manabase for sure. Is running a budget wasteland such as ghost quarter viable given that it is used to remove specific lands rather than mana screw your opponent?
The board is a disaster, I'm really new to legacy so I looked at winning lists and cobbled it together.
Metawise I know there is: Tin fins, UB reanimator w/ show and tell, Deathblade and a Jund player. That is by no means an exhaustive list as the turnout is usually around 15 people.
Thanks for your help so far :).
-2 Liliana of the Veil
+2 Thoughtseize
and try this as a sideboard:
3 Graveyard hate (Probably 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 2 Nihil Spellbomb or 1 Cage, 1 Spellbomb, 1 Leyline of the Void)
3 Duress
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge OR 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal OR 1 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique OR Phyrexian Revoker
Alternatively, if you have a Temple Garden or Godless Shrine (and the appropriate fetches) you can try the Meddling Mage plan. In the combo matchups where you want Meddling Mage, the life lost from Shocks won't matter.
I don't follow that Scrubland pairs with Heath just because Savannah pairs with Flats.
Mana base: 4 Underground Sea, 1 Tropical Island, 1 Bayou, 1 Swamp, 1 Forest
Fetches with Savannah in the sideboard:
- 4 Verdant Catacombs - can get everything
- 4 Misty Rainforest - can't get Swamp
- 1 Polluted Delta - can't get Forest or Savannah
- 1 Marsh Flats - can't get Forest or Tropical Island
Fetches with Scrubland in the sideboard:
- 4 Verdant Catacombs - can get everything
- 4 Polluted Delta - can't get Forest
- 1 Misty Rainforest - can't get Swamp or Scrubland
- 1 Marsh Flats - can't get Forest or Tropical
So in both situations you have only one fetch land that can't fetch your white source. It feels like there's a real trade off here between accessing green vs. black, and if you're already bringing in combo hate, I'd much rather have easier access to black.
Am I missing something here?
You're cutting the Forest for the white source either way, and are probably leading on Sea (or fetch into Sea) in almost all of your keepable hands. I don't think you're making some huge concession by running Scrubland. I avoid this issue entirely by not running Meddling Mage, but when I ran Mage neither Savannah nor Scrubland posed a problem. Either way, you really want to be able to cast Agent on turn 3 off of any land, so you can't just ignore green mana. Scrubland forces you to open by fetching out Trop (or playing Trop) to have access to UBGW on turn 2, and lets you fetch Sea, Savannah, Sea rather than Trop, Scrubland, Sea, so your 3 land mana is just better with Savannah.
@Ephemeron, Dissection and btm10: thank you for your advices!
@PhyrexianLibrarian: since the first land you will fetch will almost always be Underground sea, having Savannah instead of Scrubland lets you have all four colors with two lands. Also mind that in a deck without many double Black casting costs (ie, no Hymn, only 2-3 Lilies) it is not so much imperative to get double black asap.
Ignorance is strength
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