I feel the same way about TNN. The fact that it really competes with toxic deluge made it a dealbreaker for me. I'm kindof torn on the disfigures in the board. They are obviously great to draw, but I really just love jamming shardless blind on an empty board and knowing that what I hit will be relevant (except abrupt decay!). This is why I chose Submerge! Great in the mirror and RUG, and can't be cascaded into. And it's cheaper to cast. And you can even target your own shardless agent in response to some kill spell, for VALUE ofcoursE!Originally Posted by defector
Hey guys. Took this deck to my local last night and 4-0'ed to end with $40 store credit. Here's the list I'm running:
4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Savannah
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Sower of Temptation
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Baleful Strix
SB: 1 Force of Will
I'm wondering how you guys would sideboard against Elves with this list? I played against it in the last round and went 2-1 against it, sideboarding in the following way: -2 Liliana -2 Jace -3 Hymn to Tourch, -1 Forest, -2 Tarmogoyf, -1 wasteland, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Night of Soul's Betrayal, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Savannah, +4 Meddling Mage, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Force of Will.
Meddling Mage was the best card out of my sideboard since it was a reasonable beater and forced my opponent to play fair at the same time. In general, the sideboarding worked out well for me last night but I'm not entirely sure about it. My friend who I like to bounce ideas off thinks I should be sideboarding in the following way with this list against elves: +1 Force +1 Grafdigger +1NoSB +2 Thoughtseize +2 Charm +4 Meddling Mage +1 Savannah -4 Tarmogoyf -2 Jace, the Mind -1 Tarpit -1 Sylvan -3 Ancestral. I totally disagree with cutting tarpit. Would rather cut a basic. I'm not sure about cutting all four Goyfs. He's pretty bad in this matchup but I still like having some to close out games. I am also not sure about cutting ancestral and sylvan since they help you grind out games and the elves matchup is often a grind.
In regards to Legacy:
All the bring ins are great ofcourse. I'm fine with cutting Sylvan. I actually agree with cutting the tarpit, as come into play tapped lands are not where you want to be in this matchup. It's all about early turn tapouts for removal and disruption. Jace is just too slow, fine cut. Lilianas are a toss up, I leave them in because she is removal, but I totally understand taking her out since she is really slow. A couple visions can definitely be cut, they are very slow, but they do help keep your blue count up for Force of will, so you'll probably want to leave some in. I would not cut any wastelands - wasting an arbor or cradle turn 3 or later is totally legitimate, and I really don't like cutting goyfs, since you need to kill them at some point (although if you are bringing in the Meddling Mages I guess a couple goyfs can be cut).
I'm curious how you like the meddling mage package? do you think that it is better than 15 answers in side that are more specific? Also, I'm also agreeing that goyf stays in for this matchup. We spent some time testing this matchup the other night, and most games that Shardless closes vs elves involves grinding em out of resources, and then forcing them into a spot where they have to block their team into oblivion. I also like leaving Lili in for this matchup because she is the perfect way to hold control after sweeping the board EOT w golgari charm. Also, elves has scary 2 card combos (glimpse+dude, NO+dude,) that you don't want them to be able to assemble. once their board is empty, being able to keep them hellbent helps reduce the % that they can put this together is important (IMO). She is terrible into a full board of elves though.
I've liked it a lot for my combo matcups. It gives you another angle of attack that can be cascaded into. I am not sure if it is better than more specific, targeted sideboard cards though. I have not done too much testing with this list yet as I only recently started playing the deck again, combining aspects I liked from American and Lejay's lists.
In regards to Legacy:
-4 Shardless
-2 Jace
-1 Sylvan
-3 Visions
-1 Forest
+1 Savannah
+2 GCharm
+2 TS
+1 Cage
+1 NoSB
+4 Meddling Mage
Take out stuff that is slow to impact or cast for things that are not. Shardless is slow and IMO pretty garbage without Goyf to actually kill the opponent here; further you don't want to trade with them; you want to win. Lily is good because it causes immediate impact and tells them they have to go off now. Visions is bad because without shardless you have to wait 3 turns. You want Hymns because with Brainstorm you can afford dead cards for free wins. Don't grind with them; beat them to death with 4/5s and be done with it. Wastelands are still good; don't cut those! You only have two to start with. I've won a few games by wasting Elves off of mana when they got greedy or a Hymn did all of the work.
This perspective comes from the idea that you're the aggro opponent here. It doesn't feel like it with all of these control elements, but they have the stronger late game of "LOL top-deck Hoof'd ya!" and "OOps, Progenitus!"; which is another reason you want to keep liliana.
Cascading into Flusterstorm is really awkward but Cascading into Meddling Mage seems golden for Combo Matchups.
EXACTLY. against decks like storm, they attack your hand so much that flusterstorm rarely does what you want it to.
How many pieces of discard have you guys been running? I've settled down on 6, but I think it might be one too many, since discard is pretty useless in the late-game. Also, that Meddling Mage plan is really awkward, as it screws up the manabase even further for a card that can be easily replaced. Cascading into Meddling Mage is a thing, but in my testing, they didn't survive longe enough to be effective.
My latest list is, for reference:
Lands [22]
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Island/Swamp
1 Forest
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit
Creatures [12]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
Spells [26]
4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard [15]
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
Vendilion Clique does Meddling Mage's job fine enough, and stays on color.
About basic lands, what's the best configuration? Forest/Swamp or Forest/Island? I've tried both and haven't reached a conclusion.
About the Burn matchup, just try to dodge/scoop? Any real answers beside Hydroblast (which is awful)?
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
If you are playing without Baleful Strix then Swamp and Forest seems optimal for the basics. Against anything where you are worried about Bloodmoon you can fetch up the basics first and cast some spells till you can fire off that Abrupt Decay. For burn, your main card is going to be Hymn, but I've been a big fan of Chill in the board. It's a bit narrow, and only comes in against mono red decks, but it sure hoses them bad if you can land one. It really gives us a shot in the toughest matchups imo.
I've been running a one of jitte per James' winning list from portland. it is amazing, and if you can find it against burn, it will close a game very quickly. it's also just overperforms in every fair matchup out of the side.
I've been using the chill to some success in the mtgo daily events. Burn is heavily represented online and as hobart said it basically completely shuts them down... even if they flood out they can only play 1 spell a turn and you should be able to beat that. playing around price of progress by fetching forest/swamp 1st and only playing out 1 underground sea makes their best card a 2 mana shock to the face. I only play more lands out when I can play a wasteland to protect the blowout.
I think the meddling mage plan that Lejay innovated has been the best thing that's happened to shardless bug outside of toxic deluge. It shores up so many bad match ups that were FOW/HYMN or bust. If you run his mana base it's not really janky at all. I've never have a hard time casting it on turn 2.
I dont think its worth boarding in specific cards for the burn match, unless you are playing on modo. I think the match up is sooooo bad that, to me, its not worth having crappy cards like chill in my sb. Also i think everybody should be playing Jitte in the sb right now. Its the best card vs some of the more popular decks in the format. It also helps against burn!
Last edited by James_Nguyen; 08-20-2014 at 07:48 PM.
I agree. anytime that you can take a narrow card out of your board and replace it with a versatile one it is a win as long as it helps enough. I think jitte does that.I dont think its worth boarding in specific cards for the burn match, unless you are playing on modo. I think the match up is sooooo bad that, to me, its not worth having crappy cards like chill in my sb. Also i think everybody should me playing Jitte in the sb right now. Its the best card vs some of the more popular decks in the format. It also helps against burn!
I agree with James about chill in paper. If I have to play in the qualifiers for the mocs I might play 3 in my sb.I dont think its worth boarding in specific cards for the burn match, unless you are playing on modo. I think the match up is sooooo bad that, to me, its not worth having crappy cards like chill in my sb. Also i think everybody should me playing Jitte in the sb right now. Its the best card vs some of the more popular decks in the format. It also helps against burn!I've yet to test Jitte in that slot, I'll give it a try this week.
James, I wanted to ask you how much you like Karakas and whether or not you are still playing it? I haven't had a chance to do a lot with it yet, but I do like that it is uncounterable and still useful if you don't need it to solve a problem right away. Are you planning to continue running this card or would you recommend something else in it's place?I dont think its worth boarding in specific cards for the burn match, unless you are playing on modo. I think the match up is sooooo bad that, to me, its not worth having crappy cards like chill in my sb. Also i think everybody should me playing Jitte in the sb right now. Its the best card vs some of the more popular decks in the format. It also helps against burn!
I probably wouldnt play with it again. Its kinda only good when they show n tell emrakul and bad in most other spots in that match up. The changes i would make to the deck are; the md stronghold out for a tar pit or wasteland. The fetches i played were wrong because i didnt have access to 4 deltas, so it should be 4 detla, 4 catacombs and 2 mistys. And in the board, the karakas and leyline should be cut for other cards.
thanks. i have cut the karakas and leyline, but wanted to make sure that I wasn't overlooking anything. as far as the stronghold goes, I have really liked it in grindy matchups... do you think that it's good but the other lands are just better, or has it not performed consistently for you? If you had to choose between an additional tarpit or wasteland what seems better to you? I have been considering finding a way to add a tar pit to the main as it is often amazing.
I only played it in one tournament so this may be a small sample size, but all my creatures kept getting swords or terminus so it felt like in the matchup where i wanted to return creatures the most, it never really worked out how i wanted it to. It does seem insane in the mirror and vs jund, but its probably one of those "better in theory than in practice" card. I would probably add a tar pit, i dont really find myself aggressive using wasteland. but thats a play style thing.
cool. thanks. I'm going to try the tar pit. I don't use the wastes aggressively either. I think they are just there to solve problems like clique/karakas or grove. In testing, the stronghold has closed a lot of mirror matches and some delver games, but is usually mediocre and too slow. Thanks for your thoughts!
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