What's your current shardless list I can't remember the last time I saw it? Mine is basically lejays online and way skewed towards maverick/d+t in my weekly meta.Originally Posted by btm10
If I play Shardless, it'll be something along these lines:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
1 Tombstalker
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dimir Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
Sideboard
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Crucible of Worlds
I cut Jace for the Dimir Charm MD because I was increasingly boarding him out against everything but the mirror, Lands, and Loam, and Punishing Fire means that he's unspectacular in those matchups except the mirror. Jace is great against Miracles if he sticks, but they're boarding in 2-3 Blasts and getting a 4 mana spell countered for one mana is a blowout. Garruk is every bit as good in the mirror while also being a haymaker against Miracles and every creature deck. I typically even bring him in on the play against Delver decks since they tend to shave 2-4 Dazes on the draw. I'd like to add a Pithing Needle to the board, probably replacing a discard spell; I'd likely make some change MD to hedge against combo a bit in that case. In testing I've preferred Crucible to Loam even though you can't Cascade into it. Dredge is a real cost without cycling or utility lands and you're almost invariably using Loam to replay Tar Pit, Wasteland, or a Fetch or to fill up your hand with bunk to throw away to Liliana, and Crucible does all of those except the last one. Loaming back Lands to throw away to Liliana is something that's only advisable when you're either desperate or ahead, so I'm fine giving up the absolute best Liliana +1s in favor of investing less tempo overall to get a broadly similar effect. Since the list isn't final, here are cards 76-80:
76: Sylvan Library
77: Ancestral Vision #4
78: Baleful Strix #3
79: Jace, the Mind Sculptor
80: Dimir Charm #2
Haha yeah I feel the same way. It's just something I've been trying out. It's been okay, won me a couple games at the GP, but sometimes it just pitches to Force of Will. Leaving it in for now.
i havent lost a game against miracles that i stuck a garruk. hes a beast. i always want to bring him in against delvers but im too wary of spell pierce/daze/ etc to bring in a 4 drop when im cutting jaces already. interesting point about bringing him in on the play though.... why not run pithing needle instead of the 2nd pulse? i almost want to put a 2nd pithing needle in my sb!
I'm not as concerned about Pierce since it's typically a 1-of in BUG and Grixis Delvers and it has to line up perfectly (they need to leave it in, too, which doesn't always happen) to answer Garruk, and you always have the option to play around it. I wouldn't bring Garruk in against RUG. Blasts always trade with Jace, even if he's in play, and aren't very good at answering anything but Jace (out of Delver).
I could see running a Needle over the second Pulse, since Pulse is largely there for the same things Needle is.
hi everybody.
with the release of EMA i've been considering entering legacy and i believe Shardless is the deck for me (partly because i already have some of the cards and some are available in EMA, but also because the deck genuinely sounds fun to play).
I do have a couple of queries about the deck though, some might seem a bit stupid but please bare in mind I'm very new to legacy so don't really understand the metagame properly yet...
1) why does the deck not try to fit divining top and counterbalance in? just seems like a useful small combo to have in then deck
2) how necessary is thoughtseize vs hymn? in what metagame would you choose one over the other?
3) what is the likely reason for the huge variance in jace's and lili's in most builds? i'm considering the 3 lili two jace variants, why do some people play less?
4) why are sinkholes not played in this deck? from a modern perspective sinkhole seems like a pretty good card and i can't understand why you wouldn't want to destroy your opponent's lands for 2 black mana! :P
again, sorry for the noob questions, this deck does seem really cool though and given the cost i'd like to understand legacy and the deck a bit more before jumping into such a huge investment.
thanks guys :)
1) Counterbalance UU cost is very prohibitive. This deck is essencially BGu, with blue being only cantrips and Force of Will. Sensei's Divining Top gives card quality, but we don't need that, we draw plenty of cards already.
2) Hymn is better against a unknown field. Thoughtseize is better against Show and Tell and GY-based decks (like Dredge and Reanimator).
3) Planeswalkers are good against control and aggro. They're terrible against combo. You need to adjust your deck to your metagame.
4) Some lists don't even play 4 Wastelands. I guess Sinkhole is better suited in some Pox/BG Loam variants. I'd play Hymn over Sinkhole anyday.
My list, for reference:
Lands [22]
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Wasteland
Cretures [15]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix
Spells [23]
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard [15]
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Dismember
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique/Life from the Loam (I switch these up depending on what I expect to see)
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
More importantly, counterbalance is an absolutely terrible cascade.
Report from the GP. This was my second GP and my goal going in was to make day 2.
I won two byes on Friday playing in a last chance qualifier. I played in two of them, top 4 in my first and won the second. 8-1 on the day. I did not take notes however I did use the same 75,
Saturday
Round 3 Grixis delver.
Game 1: I had to mulligan to 5, he took my shardless on turn two after a probe, could not recover.
Game 2: Mulligan to 6, being on the play was a big help, and after two hymms a goyf made quick work.
Game 3: He had the nut draw making 4 elemental tokens by turn 4. I did not find the charm or toxic to kill them
2-1
Round 4 Mericles
Game1: He got the counter top lock and I did not draw the abrupt decay until he had a jace up ticking.
Game2: I took an aggressive line with a Lilly in play and two cards, hymm and pulse. He had three cards in his hand and a monk token. I made us both discard and hymmed him so we where both top decking. His first top deck was Jace. I did not come back.
2-2
Round 5: ANT
Game 1: I was on the play I started with deathrite, into turn two shardless, flipping a goyph. On his turn two he cast ad nauseam killed himself.
Game 2: I kept a hand with thoughtsieve, hymm, deathright, 3 lands, and a shardless. He cast a turn one ad nauseam and cast tendrils for 22.
Game 3: I mulled the to 4 looking for lands. Kept a had with 2 death right, a force, and a goyph. on my first draw I found a blue card, but he took the force with a duress. He spends a few turns cantripping and I find a land on turn 5. Play my first deathright Next turn he ad nauseam's into 18 goblins and 2 bob's and down to 8 life. my deathright takes him to 4. and I play a land, my second deathrite and leave up a bayou. His bob flips an infernal tutor, and I kill him with my deathrite.
3-2
Round 6:Punishing Jund
Game 1: the main deck toxic was an mvp and got me a 3 for 1. He did not have an answer to goyph that was left.
Game 2: he beat me a quick draw and a knight of the reliquary.
Game 3: I kept a hand of 4 lands (one of which was the stronghold), brainstorm, decay, an simic charm. I played a fetch and passed. He thoughtsieved and I brainstormed into 3 more lands. I put the charm and the decay back. Meaning that he couldn't take a card. I decayed the library he played on turn 2. on turn three I drew into a shardless, flipping a goyph. From there the stronghold made sure that I always had a creature and that he could not kill my shardless.
4-2
Round 7: Shardless BUG
Game 1: he suspended a visions on turns 1, 2, and 3. I suspended my own on 1. my visions finds me a force to answer his second visions. And my main deck toxic got me a 2 for 1. From there Lilly was the star while we where both top decking.a goyph closed out the game.
Game 2: I cast a turn two shardless into a second deathrite. Turn 3 killed his goyph, and on turn 4 played garruk. and made a pack of wolves.
Round 8: Sneak and Show
Game 1: a turn two show and tell into emrakul made quick work of me.
Game 2: I played a turn two goyph, with a force in hand. he cast a blood moon, which I let resolve. From there I attacked him down to 7. But he had counter back up for his sneak attack, but had no open mana. my gopyh only took him down to 1 and on the next turn he attack for 22 with emrakul and griselbrand
5-3
Round 9: BUG Delever
Game 1: this was one of the grindiest games of my life with a total of 5 deathrites in play at once. But his flipped delever carried him. A top deck toxic in the last 5 turns would have changed the game.
Clock was a real concern at this point as we only had about 25 minutes left.
Game 2: I get the nut draw turn turn shardless into gopyh with removal to get rid of his goyph on turn 3.
Game 3: he started with a turn one deathrite, and followed it up with another deathrite and a delver. I played goyph and pass. He played a few cantrips and attacked with his unflipped delver. I played a toxic and goyph carried me into day 2.
6-3
Sunday
Round 10: eldrazi
Game 1: I am on the play but don't have a turn 1 play. He plays chalice on 1. I play a hymm hitting a chalice and a thorn of amethyst. He plays a turn two ThoughtKnot and takes my shardless. A turn 3 Smasher is to much for me to recover from.
Game 2: We have a grindy match with his displacer stopping me from attacking, but the board is stalled out. We where both in top deck, but he goes Thought Knot into Smasher and I go fetch into fetch.
Round 11: Sneak and Show
Game 1: He mulled to 5 and did not get what he needed for the combo and my creatures won me the game.
Game 2: Turn 1 needle on Sneak, and turn two meddling mage on Show and Tell made short work of the match.
7-4
Round 12: Lands
Game 1: While dredging to find the stage for his dark depths I was able to close out the game.
Game 2: He Gambles on turn one to find this loam, and starts dredging, he finds the depths but can't find the stage. But his maze slows down his goyph. However I play a click on his draw step to put the loam on the bottom of the deck. he needed to draw a stage on that turn but fails, I waste his maze and kill him.
8-4
Round 13: Death and Taxes
Game 1: A turn one mother of runes makes the game very hard, and the second one closes it out.
Game 2: golgari charm did a 4 for 1, shardless and goyph close out the game.
Game 3: He draws all 4 of his waste lands, 2 ports, and removal for both of my deathrites the turn I play them. Finally he gets an angel out an I don't find enough land.
8-5 drop.
Still I was super happy with my results (16-6 on the weekend) and for making my first day 2.
Overall I loved the deck, and the side board was great. I think I would cut a fetch for another tropical as I found a few times I didn't like only having the one. Gurrak has been great for me, I am 9-0 life time when I cast him, and was happy with the meddling mage package. The real spicy one for me was the simic charm. I found it very useful and although it didn't make any major plays over the weekend, I found myself wanting it a lot. All three modes on the card are good for us.
Also the one of stronghold was great and single handedly won me 4 games thoughtout the weekend.
I look forward to many more games with this deck:
2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Disfigure
1 Simic Charm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Meddling Mage
1 Null Rod
1 Scrubland
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Garruk Relentless
What do we do against Food Chain BUG?
After looking at GP Prague and some other recent lists, I think I agree with their thoughts and have been testing this today against Grixis Delver to a 2-1 finish in matches. No real notes, as he's learning and so am I, but I do believe I did a lot of things right and liked what the deck was doing overall, here's the list. I'm getting happier with the way my sideboard is changing, as well as what I've stolen from the GP Prague list that did best:
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Strix
4 Agent
1 Clique
4 FoW
2 T-Seize
2 Hymn
2 Liliana
1 Library
3 A. Vision
4 Brainstorm
3 AD
1 Pulse
1 Deluge
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 CTP
1 Trop
2 Bayou
3 USea
1 Misty
4 Verdant
4 Delta
Board:
1 Jace
1 NoSB
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Deluge
1 G's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Null Rod
1 AD
1 Surg. Extraction
1 Disfigure
1 G. Charm
1 T-Seize
1 Library
1 Needle
I think I'll drop a Ravenous Trap for Extraction #2. I also wouldn't mind squeezing in the 2nd Null Rod, but I can't see where I would put it.
Also, a reminder that this is for a painter/storm/dredge/reanimator and or Tin Fins/Imper. Bomberman, with a smaller amount of fair lists such as Burn, Merfolk, DnT, CounterSlivers, Miracles, the mirror, Enchantress, Junk, and Grixis Delver among other things.
Thanks so much for all the help so far, I'm doing well with this list and it feels good.
Went 6-3 at Eternal Extravaganza, losing to Grixis Dlver (I got Wastelanded 5.5 times in 2 games, the 0.5 is due to his open Wasteland forcing me to fetch basic Forest to cast Decay and never finding a blue source to cast the Brainstorms and Agents in my hand), UB Omnitell (didn't find enough interaction either game), and Eldrazi (I flooded out game 3 and he drew too many gigantic guys; there was a single combat that I might have been able to navigate differently, but I think I ended up on the best line), and beating the bye, Burn, Enchantress (the way you beat those is running perfect and having your opponent make mistakes), Eldrazi, Infect, and Ur Delver. Crucible and Jitte were absolutley fantastic, and basically have their spots in the board locked up. Tombstalker earned his keep all day, winning me two different games Strix would've lost me. I ran this list:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
1 Tombstalker
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Sideboard
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
3 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Jitte was a last minute addition as a tool to fight D&T while not being terrible in other fair matchups (Disfigure can be dead sometimes and I didn't want a third). I was definitely wrong in the past about it being too clunky. I flooded out several times throughout the day and bricked on land far longer than I should've in my Delver matchup, so I'm going to be re-examining a lot about how I'm building the deck over the next few weeks with a particular eye toward getting some more cantrips into the deck.
Played in local event. About 11 people or so
Overall: 2-2
Round 1: played against lands. It sucked. Lost 2-0 pretty easily
0-1
Round 2: game 1: played against infect. Game 1 i essentialy hymn his hand away while he beats down with inkmoth. He has 1 card in hand and i cast my mainboard vclique to see he has a force if will. V clique acted as a blocked while i beat with goyf
Game 2: i side in engineered plague, 2 disfigure, 2 golgari charm. I disfigure his t1 noble. I play the game wanting it to go late. I eventually brainstorm into eplague but i didnt think i could name "blinkmoth" considering thats the only infect creature on the field. Eventually get a wasteland and go for beats
1-1
Round 3: played miracles. Game 1 i t2 hymn. He forces. I firce back. T3 i play lilly, t4 i play jace....he scoops
Game 2: he durdles and we both have 1 card in hand. I have null rod and eplague (on monk..should have been human..not sure if the tokens are human) i brainstorm and find shardless and AV. He was carless with his hand so i thought i saw a pyroblast so i tried to play around it and not waste my time on AV and fetched it away. Turned out to be wear//tear whcuh removed null rod amd eplague..i should have been smarter, could have won.
Game3 he durdles (as miracles does) and eventually guets the double top mentor action going...cant find a way out. Lose
1-2
Round 4 oppenent was a no show bit he was playing affinity and we were testing pre-tourney.
2-2
Overall it was ok. I felt like thw dexk was well places in the meta....3 miracles, 2 infect, lands, d&t, affinity,burn, grixis delver.
I enjoyed the main board vclique. It gave me more info and a resonable beater.
Theres my report. Felt good but hoping i can do better. I really want this deck to be successful, i enjoy it to much for it not to win
What were your win/losses?
Last edited by Whit3boy316; 06-21-2016 at 10:49 AM.
In the post you quoted.
I've been taking a poll lately to see what most legacy players would do in a specific situation and thought I'd toss it up here to see what y'all think.
You're on shardless and you know your opponent is on miracles. It's game one.
You won the die roll and played polluted delta fetching an underground sea and played a deathrite shaman. its their turn and your hand is verdant catacombs, brainstorm, force of will, abrupt decay and wasteland.
They play island and cast a top.
Do you force the top pitching brainstorm potentially losing to jace/entreat/etc. Later in the game if you don't find another force?
Or do you let it resolve and attempt to in your next turns abrupt decay the top in response to a fetch allowing them to potentially draw and shuffle the top into their deck, saving the force for a spell you actually die to. That is assuming you don't think you're already losing every turn a top is in play under their control.
A reason why you would do one or the other would be appreciated as well.
I usually just try to save my forces for things that I just straight die to and let tops resolve and deal with them in a somewhat suboptimal way (abrupt decay in response to fetch). It seems to work usually but the games tend to go really long that way. Maybe this is fundamentally incorrect and top is really just worth forcing since its their main way of doing anything at all.
I almost never even bother Decaying Tops, so I definitely wouldn't Force one here. With the addition of Monastery Mentor they have way too many powerful targets to waste a Decay on a Top, especially since they're so good at finding additional Tops once they have one. Beating even 3 or 4 Monks isn't difficult if they only have one Top and Mentor isn't there to rebuild the team. Preboard we're pretty much locked in to either making them discard the Top before they play it or living with it in play.
I don't bother with the top and don't use either option to fight it. I want to Force Entreat or Jace or push through my own Jace and especially wouldn't force since I have to Pitch BS when I already have 1 Dead card + Fetch in my Hand. Decay needs to be hold up for CB. You can think about decaying their top when you have 2+ Decays but I almost never do it, because it is still -1 CA and they have so many cantrips to find a new one.
I love your deck - You made a lot of choices that I like. I played this yesterday in our LGS to a 3-0 (Monobrown Stax, NicFit, Deathblade):
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Ancestral Vision
2x Baleful Strix
2x Bayou
4x Brainstorm
1x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Force of Will
1x Forest
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
4x Shardless Agent
1x Swamp
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
SB:
1x Baleful Strix
2x Dismember
1x Flusterstorm
1x Invasive Surgery
1x Life from the Loam
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
1x Sylvan Library
3x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
I loved the deck and the fact that it plays 4 planeswalkers was very relevant as I played 3 very grindy games. In the sideboard I like to have at least 2 Pithing Needles and some grind cards like the Life from the Loam and the Sylvan Library.
As you mentioned before Loam and the Vendilion Clique are exchangeable. Also between main and side you can exchange Baleful Strix #3 and Toxic Deluge #1. I liked having 1 Wrath main as opposed to having just a metric ton of value with the third Strix.
Last edited by hofzge; 06-22-2016 at 07:38 AM.
Chalice on 1
What do you guys think is the best card vs miracles?
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