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You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
But..but.. then he'd have to read them all of them..or at least skim through till he finds something about boarding. Don't you think thats to much? Thats at least as bad as reading the primer in some threads.Originally Posted by Lejay
Sweet, thanks for the advise.
I apoligize I was a bit snappy about it. Though it does help reading between and asking concrete questions and not just "built me a sideboard" specially if one doesn't even know the maindeck.
I'm new to this deck but I have a fair idea of how it works. One question, does Shardless Agent get boarded out against combo? The first to come out is obviously the 4 Decays, then it's either the Agent or The Strix.
So do you -4 Shardless Agents and + XX Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce. Or do you keep the Shardless Agents in and board is XX Thoughtseize/Hymn. I feel that Upping the discard count and cascading into them is pretty strong. Baleful strix is a poor clock for 2 mana, so it seems likely to get cut. However With so much discard, if your hand is Force-less, you are dead to a topdecked combo piece.
Thoughts?
Due to the increase of SFM decks and True-Name Nemesis, I'm not sure that Baleful Strix is very good anymore unfortunately. I probably wouldn't even run any right now. That said, he can be a meta call if you have a lot of decks where he might still be good against. You can also note this trend from the Shardless BUG deck which got 8th at the SCG open yesterday which contains no baleful strixes: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=63429 .
Shardless agent isn't great vs. combo but I think you need to keep enough blue cards in to consistently be able to cast force of will. So the question isn't really do you want Shardless Agent, it's more "How many blue cards do I want for force?"
I assume that Agent always gets boarded out for Combo so you can shove massive amounts of cheap counters and discard into the deck.
Turn 1 Thoughtseize, Turn 2 Hymn, Turn 3 Lilly or Goyf w/Flusterstorm with FoW backup is pretty nasty for any combo deck. Top-decked combo piece is meaningless if their hand was empty to begin with.
Wonder why Jace got dropped. He can't touch TNN, but he's still card advantage and can bounce Germ tokens/Delvers.
The way I see it, that new list on scg only has 18 blue cards main which is a really low number. Also the curve is quite high with Shardless, Cliques and Lilies. There seems to be a clog at the 3 drop slot. It also runs 1 more land than normal which is 23 and that seems reasonable given zero Baleful Strix and the higher curve.
My opinion is that even though Baleful Strix isn't great against TNN, it still does alot of little things like upping the blue count, without clogging your high drop slots (like Jace and Clique). It also cantrips, allowing you to play less land (22) and when drawn I always find it useful because it replaces itself and has a meaningful body against Delvers.
It's never great, but it's never terrible as well. I think I'll keep running them to smooth the curve and keep the blue count high as well as for the cantripping effect and aggro busting abilities.
As for Shardless Agent going out, then I guess Flusterstorms and Cliques will come in to keep the Blue Count high enough.
The first cards to drop against decks like ANT would be Decay and Strix. The next one would be Jace, since 4 mana is quite a lot against any combo deck. Shardless is not exactly insane against combo mu's, but it still provides a clock and card advantage and the only card you don't want to cascade into is flusterstorm.
I've never been surprised by the performance of clique in this deck. It just doesn't seem to work for me. Strix on the other hand is beyond good, even with Nemesis and Mystic. As said it replaces itself and blocks Delvers, Goyfs, Tombstalkers or the odd Emrakul (yes, I've won more than a few rounds against Emrakul decks because of Strix blocking).
I played with a standard Shardless BUG list at a local tournament this past Sunday.
Round 1: W 2-1 vs Merfolk
Round 2: W 2-1 vs Sneak and Show
Round 3: W 2-0 vs BUG Delver
Round 4: W 2-0 vs UWR Delver
Round 5: ID into top 4
In the end top 4 just decided to split all of the store credit.
Despite my success in the tournament, I felt that Jace and Hymn were kind of bad all day long. I never even attempted to cast a Jace, and only resolved a Hymn once. With all of these blue decks running around loading up on Spell Pierce and Daze, I am honestly considering running 4 Thoughtseize and 0 Hymn in the main. Liliana won me every game I casted her in, and Baleful Strix seemed pretty solid for me throughout the day. I feel a minimum of 2 Baleful Strix is still needed because of how it can help us in the Delver match ups. If we don't draw an Abrupt Decay, we have no fliers to stop a flipped Delver. Combine that with how easily Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana can be countered and it is hard to recover without those Strixes.
No 4 drops means the curve is lower than the stock list.
@ATenjum
I was intrigued by your list from Nashville, but I have a few questions:
How did you find the combo matchup going more all-in on the discard plan?
Did you miss having Flusterstorm?
Is a turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity game over?
Thanks.
This. I see you are on the cascade plan post-board against combo. Let us know your thoughts. I'm deciding on what type of board to run right now as well. A tap out/discard/cascade anti combo type or a mana open for flusterstorm and no cascade type.
Yea I feel strix does alot of little things and that's great. The 1 power against combo is not too hot though.
I like being proactive and mana efficient against combo. Holding up counterspells such as Flusterstorm stymies your board development, where as the discard + dudes plan allows you to use all of your mana every turn. Shardless Agent becomes actively good, and allows you to board out your bad cards instead like Abrupt Decay and Ancestral Vision.
In my experiences, Leyline is not very common out of combo sideboards anymore. However, even they do have it, I still have the full playset of Force of Wills, Phyrexian Revokers to name Sneak Attack/Griselbrand/LED, Liliana's +1, and Wasteland to disrupt them, backed up by pressure.
I do regret not playing Baleful Strix in some quantity, and will probably play 2 in the maindeck, moving the Cliques to the sideboard, or vice-versa.
Hey all,
Just returned from Paris. Played this deck ofcourse.
Result: 33rd place with an 11-3-1 record. I will be posting a report some time this week, but this is the overview.
The list:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Force of Will
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
===============
3 Disfigure
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Force of Will
I decided to go with 3 Baleful Strixes because that card is always good. I dropped the second Jace for it. During the trials I tried to go without Hymns, but that didn't work out so they came back in. And I dropped the stock list Spellbombs (which are very good) for Cages to improve the matchup against Elves, which consequently I didn't see all weekend.
The rounds:
R1: bye 2-0 (1-0)
R2: Mono-R Sneak Attack 2-0 (2-0)
R3: Punishing Jund 2-0 (3-0)
R4: Junk 2-0 (4-0)
R5: Death & Taxes 2-1 (5-0)
R6: BUG Delver 2-0 (6-0)
R7: Punishing Jund 1-1-1 (6-0-1)
R8: Esper Miracles 2-0 (7-0-1)
R9: Sneak & Show: 0-2 (7-1-1)
=============
R10: BURG Delver 0-2 (7-2-1)
R11: UW Miracles 2-1 (8-2-1)
R12: BUG Delver 2-0 (9-2-1)
R13: Esper Stoneblade 2-1 (10-2-1)
R14: UWR Delver 1-2 (10-3-1)
R15: UWR Delver 2-0 (11-3-1)
The deck is far from dead. Any questions about the list or mu's, feel free to ask.
I like thay list, I'll be playing something similar. A few questions, why md Pulse? Seems like another Liliana would be better against TNN? Or was it a meta call as another out to Jace/Entreat from Miracles? Looking at the GP trials winners, there were alot of miracles.
And the 1 swamp instead of a 2nd Tarpit? How did that work out? I can see its value by being able to go fetch, swamp DRS against a Blood Moon deck, then being able to cast everything in the deck. But seems narrow Imo. I like the board, but would swap the SB liliana with the MD pulse as I feel liliana is more versatile since she destroys combo, control and aggro.
I see you played against UWR delver in the final rounds. How did that match up feel? Also congrats on your finish! 33 is something to be proud of!
Sent from my C6802 using Tapatalk
Thanks.
You are quite right to question the md Pulse. Liliana is a far better card and has won me a lot of matches. However, miracles and stoneblade are decks and Pulse is the easiest out against Batterskull, the angels and some other troublesome permanents. Sunday it destroyed a Moat for me, for example.
The Swamp is concession to Blood Moon. I never liked the second Tar Pit and it was the first card I dropped when I picked up the deck a year ago. It became the fourth Sea at first, but this is far better. That's the reason that the list is maximalised on the black fetches.
The Delver mu's are pretty good with the BUG version being very, very positive. The other Delver decks are harder because of Lightning Bolt. You have to work harder to stabilize before you are in double bolt range. I'd say that the first match is slightly in their favour and after boarding we turn it around. However, if during any game they can't put you under early pressure you'll easily win that one.
Cheers for the answers. I agree in general I feel UWR delver is a more powerful deck than BUG delver and a harder matchup.
Bug delver has too many spells that cost 2 mana or more. Imo abrupt decay should not belong in a delver deck because it's not efficient. Same thing for discard, by running discard, it's a tempo loss compared to counters like spell pierce which is tempo gain.
I feel in general UWR delver is a purer tempo delver deck with a good midrange plan with equipment while bug delver is a meta deck that's good against UWR delver and Combo.
My 2 cents.
Sad to see this deck go from DTB to the third page. I started legacy playing RUG and then switched to Team America after deathrite/decay were printed. The problem was I would have trouble closing without lightning bolts vs stoneblade and miracles. Delver just felt very inconsistent and a way worse play than turn 1 deathrite. Also, the games would go on a bit longer and there were no random stifle blowouts so daze become less consistent. For those reasons, I switched to Shardless.
I played it yesterday in SCG Atl to a top 8. Here's the list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=64130
Even though I have loved hymning people since when I first started playing magic 17 yrs ago, the deck felt glutted on two drops. Thoughtseize was ok but cascading into it was the worst. I saw Lejay advocating and doing well with a build without any discard and gave it a go. I also adopted the sideboard spice of meddling mage/scrubland from a daily list of his.
I didn't take many detailed notes but I'll give you the run down. Some of the later rounds are much clearer to me. I likely will mix up some of the earlier rounds. I was sideboarding on the fly so am open to suggestions.
R1 Vs UWR Delver
This matchup has always felt very good. The life gained from STP helps mitigate their bolts and them not having stifle also helps. Goyf being bigger than batterskull makes a big difference. Just hit land drops to avoid giving their dazes and spell pierces value. Watch out for the rare sword of feast and famine post board. I played around spell pierce with lilliana and rode her home in one game. Forced a swords on goyf and rode that home in another. I believe I had a deluge blow out here as well. SB +Golgari Charm, +scrubland +Notion theif +2 thoughtseize; -2 jace -2 force of will -1 AV.
R2 Vs UW RIP Miracles
G1 Another excellent matchup. After playing it twice vs alphastryk on Wednesday, I felt very comfortable with my list and game decisions. I kept a double abrupt decay deahtrite brainstorm hand (not knowing he was on miracles) which happened to be very good vs his double top double counterbalance hand. He enlightened tutored for a rest in peace to slow down my offense and I was able to find a third decay. This was very very lucky in that he had Helm floating on top. G2 I don't remember much but I don't remember it being close. I think I had lilliana and multiple visions resolve. He was a very nice opponent. He even was optimistic about having time to grab food which is so rare when playing miracles. SB +Golgari Charm +pithing Needle +notion theif +1 duress +1 meddling mage; -2 deluge -2 baleful strix -1 goyf. I opted to swap a goyf for a mage to maybe help close a game under rest in peace and shut off a card he tutors for since I knew he was running multiples. Maybe wrong. I may have sided out a land here too.
R3 Vs Reanimator
A local friend who always plays combo at the weekly events. I wasn't sure what variety though (lately belcher and ANT have been his favorites I think). I mulled a decent opener w/ no force no clock into a deathrite/lilliana based hand. He led on island ponder, so I put him on ANT. Unfortunately, when I tapped out for lilliana t2, he forced it, then proceeded to careful study/reanimate a griselbrand. Fortunately, I followed up with Baleful Strix. There was a trade, and then he exhumed both back. I followed up with a second Baleful strix. Deathrite removed his elesh norn from the gy and then his Ashen rider. And he quickly realized he was hardlocked out of the game no matter how many cards he drew. G2 He went all in show and telling elesh norn-I put in Strix again. I then played lilliana and meddling mage and rode them home vs his empty grip. SB YARDSALE SWAP -4 vision -4 decay -2 jace -Deluge -wasteland; +everything
R4 Vs Jund.
My opponent was a 5min late and received a game loss. He was very apologetic about it, and I assured him he was punished more than enough for it by the judges. He opened on deathrite into lilliana. I opened on deathrite as well. I was able to force his lilliana and play my own. He was stalled on a mana with only wastelands to support his overgrown tomb. I kept my deathrite up to block his. He played multiple goyfs but I was able to tick up lilliiana for another sacrifice, then play a second for a third sacrifice. At this point, he was loathe to wasteland me as he was likely holding multiple bloodbraids. This allowed me to play jace and take it home. He did not complain once during this match about his mana screw or not getting to play g3. Hats off.
R5 Vs Sneak and Show
I almost managed to steal g1 with NO disruption. He led island ponder. Second Island Ponder. Misty fetch. He git probed me and brainstormed a bunch. At this point, I figured he was on Monoblue. He forced a lilliana, then show and telled an emrakul. I followed up with a Deluge for 15. He then played a bare sneak attack with no cards. My Tarpit went to work putting him to a low life but I never found a goyf to close things out. Cardless, he pondered, shuffled, then hit the griselbrand-Which I should emphasize is not really very lucky considering the high density of cantrips he could also hit. He played well this game but was clearly under the weather which I think affected his game play in g2. G2 My thoughtseize is pierced. My t2 deathrite+ duress snags his sneak attack. He probes me and sees my notion thief. The following turn he brainstorms into my 4 open mana, realizes his mistake, and has to fetch/spell pierce his own brainstorm. This rattled him a bit. I play lilliana and meddling mage I think and he quickly scoops with no way to dig for answers. G3 I see him swap 2 more cards which I assume are pyroclasms. He forces my t1 thoughtseize. He show and tells t2. I have to think do I put in deathrite so I can play t2 lilliana. At this point, I'm hoping for an emrakul. It's actually just a sneak attack. He has two cards. I untap, play needle on sneak attack. I think land a lilliana. to go w/ double deathrite. I soon draw a mage and name pyroclasm to represent lethal on board. He has monsters in hand still and is drawing for echoing truth but I have force backup. SB -4 decay -tarpit -deluges -2 goyf -2 jace -2 visions +everything but the graveyard hate.
R6 Vs Rug Eventual winner and my quarterfinals opponent.
G1 I mull to five and get wastelanded. I play a goyf to stare down his but he has dismember. G2 I mull to 6 and keep a land heavy deathrite hand. I proceed to have my deathrite submerged and draw it again and draw more lands and a goyf. He opens on delver goyf goyf mongoose or something. I have my lone goyf dismembered again. Afterwards, we discussed the matchup a bit since I used to play RUG. He shows me he sideboarded out stifles which I advised him not to do for good reasons. This would have the opportunity to haunt me as I commented it might to him at the time. +scrubland charm spellbomb and theif -2 force, -2 jace.
R7 Vs Esper Deathblade A good matchup vs a tough opponent.
G1 T1 I was knocked down to two by a double thoughtsezie stoneforge lilliana aggressive draw. Fortunately, he had to search up underground to play lilliana which I was able to waste and keep him off blue for a long time. Goyf sat on defense and my two visions went off and gave me the tools to come back. This showcased the grindy nature of the matchup and the resiliency of shardless bug in any game that goes past the first few turns. G2 he had another aggressive start and was able to land batterskull/sword of feast or famine. I had the answer to the sword but couldnt find an answer to the follow up true name digging for deluge. This only left us with like 10min for g3. I was trying to play very quickly as I felt the matchup was favorable. For some reason, even though we both play at the same local store, my opponent distrusted me and kept repeatedly asking how many cards were in my hand and for me to shuffle his deck more after shuffling it as my cut after his fetch. While I understand his paranoia because of how rampant cheating can be, this did not help our clock situation even in G3. G3 was grindy. I landed jace first on an empty board and was pressuring his jace with agent into strix. Unfortunately my brainstorms yielded only deluges and charm and lands and visions and I couldn't find a goyf to save my life. I didn't suspend the first vision because I was hoping to brainstorm into an agent. With less than a minute on the clock, I opted not to suspend any of my 3 visions because maybe I'd draw forces and they would never resolve. My opponent picked up his pace of play some but I suspect made sure I had turn 0 and he had t1. At this point, I calculated I couldn't kill him from 12 even if I found goyfs so I merely bounced his fresh stoneforge w/ jace. The game ended with me having answers in hand and jace vs his threats and jace. He then made a snarky comment about how of course I'm not the kind of person to concede even in the face of his overwhelming advantage. I regret wasting a little breath showing him my hand and explaining the situation. I think he felt the esper-shardless matchup was way better than it is for him and probably rightly felt himself a better player (although maybe a lot closer in legacy than he thinks). Unfortunately for him, he was paired down and missed top8 on breakers.
R8 Vs Elves
My opponent I recognized as a very good elves player whom I had played in a past open. Fortunately I was able to lead deathrite into lilliana into double goyf. He had to use his natural ordered behemoth to kill lilliana and then was forced to oplay defense vs 5/6 goyfs which closed out the game. A radically different game if I lose the die roll. G2 I have the cage which locks him out of two green suns in hand which I see when I thoughtseize the behemoth in hand. I make my one punt of the day when I draw meddling mage. I snap play it going to name abrupt decay...then I think well I saw viridian shaman g1 and maybe he didn't sb in decays...then i name shaman...then I remember I have force of will in hand. I lucksack out and kill him the turn b4 he would draw it. He then explains he only saw BUG delver cards g1 and I had played BUG delver vs him in previous open so he definitely boarded in decays.
R9 vs esperdeathblade. One of Shardless Bug's best matchups. My opponent was Alex Bertoncini. He was very nice and pleasant to play against (and also was when I played near him in earlier rounds). I was anxious to win to try to top 8 but even more so because of an earlier round situation vs my friend at x-1. During that round, after drawing their opening hands, my friend asked how many cards Alex was holding. He responded 7. My friend asked him to count twice and 7 was the answer. Then my friend asked him to lay them flat and found 8 cards. The judges ruled it a warning and a forced mulligan. G1 He was in a tight spot after I decayed his Vclique with Jitte equipped leaving him with an empty board, 8 life vs my goyf. He landed a deathrite then a true name to turn the game around quick. He then punted on the critical turn at 2 life vs my goyf. He attacked with nemesis for 2 jitte counters, then played a jace into my one card and 5 mana tapping his deathrite and fetching down to 1 in the process. My last card was force of will. My goyf was a 5/6 and attacked for the win. He beat himself up pretty bad about this punt and has publicly posted on facebook about it. I was relieved and lucky and admitted so. G2 was not close with multiple visions going off into a double shardless turn. He was very gracious in defeat.
Top 8: Can be found in the coverage. My opponent agonized over his keep and led tarn pass. This let me know he had stifles and wastelands and no threats. I had a great hand with goyfs and strix. Fortunately, he fetched on his turn before playing his second land allowing me to fetch out my swamp. Unfortunately, he had double stifle double waste daze goyf hand and an answer to my t2 deathrite. On the last turn before lethal, I found a second land to try to land one of my two drops, but his last card was the daze. I died with goyfs and strix aplenty in hand. Another game radically decided by play/draw. G2 I couldn't mulligan a force vision deathrite 4 land hand, as I felt any hand with a deathrite and lands was favored over his average hand. I force his t1 delver (which I know force sucks in this matchup). I suspend a vision and play deathrite and pray. He continually submerged my deathrite without me fetching which I found strange, but it worked for him as I never drew enough gas to keep up with threats. At two, in top deck mode, I couldn't draw an answer to his new drawn lavaman.
Wow-I remembered more than I thought. Props to friends for lending me a few cards and for sticking around to watch. Also, thanks to all my opponents who really were very nice to play against. Making top 8 was cool, but I was excited just to play a full day of Legacy. I feel that RUG is a tough but maybe slightly favorable matchup, especially with my md configuration so it sucked to lose twice to it, but we all can't run hot all the time.
Thanks for reading.
I'm sorry, but I'm not at all surprised that Alex tried cheating you. Anyways, congratulations on your finish.
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