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Thread: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

  1. #2601
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    and RUG delver with punish you so hard to play this cluncky pile..
    By that logic RUG Delver will punish every single non-combo Abrupt Decay pile of any variety...or is this where someone says Maverick, which might play 2 creatures without ability to clock (Birds/Hierarch + Mother of Runes) into threat into 3-for-1 Terminus, is somehow a more solid deck theory? The only thing that really separates Shardless from any other BUG deck going forward is an uncounterable turn 1 special action and Shardless Agent itself. Turn 1 Hierarch/Birds opener could be used to cobble together a replacement for DRS, but I think the looming threat of "I'm going to threaten a draw 3 in on turn 5, and send discard and fetchlands after Stifle in-hand in the interim" is a stronger strategy than play a mana dork that can't cast a turn 2 Hymn through Wasteland [mutually assured destruction of Hierarch exalting Goyfs and enabling better free attacks with Strix makes me doubt BUG decks are going to run Birds]. DRS might be banned, but Shardless was never dead on principle to RUG Delver when they didn't have a DRS opener previously. Not having DRS simply makes RUG Delver more likely to win a game it probably deserved to anyways, without really cutting into how massively favored Shardless became if it went late. If getting mana off the floor is that hard for Shardless, they can just turn Wastelands to basics.

    Strix is still good against Delver, Goyf is still good against Goyf/Goose, and LotV is still good against TNN/Goose. Not seeing how all these going over-the-top, effective strategies will suddenly be abandoned as if DRS was the only thing that allowed them to work. The real holdouts are going to be the ones trying to play Snapcaster Mage without CB (or the significant fixing demands of SCM with 3-4 Decay); it's ok-ish in Blade but still miserable against miracles. Suppose we should take a moment and remember that despite Blade pilots touting their "good" miracles matchup, they got run out of the tier 1 conversation by it. Now if your point is that AggroLoam is going to be better positioned than Shardless, then I don't disagree - I just don't think people are going to stop playing Strix, and this is still the deck for it.

  2. #2602
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    The people trying to keep this deck alive should look way back and see what Shardless BUG looked like before the printing of DRS.

  3. #2603
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkness View Post
    The people trying to keep this deck alive should look way back and see what Shardless BUG looked like before the printing of DRS.
    It didn't exist before DRS, both Shaman and Agent came out in 2012.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  4. #2604
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    It didn't exist before DRS, both Shaman and Agent came out in 2012.
    Actually Darkness has a very strong point.

    Shardless Agent and Baleful Strix were originally printed in Planechase 2012, which was released in JUNE
    Deathrite Shaman was first printed in Return to Ravnica, which was released in OCTOBER.

    So, actually there were MONTHS where the former were legacy legal and Shaman still didn't exist.
    But it was very clear since the beginning that Shardless had potential (cascade into Ancestral Vision or Tarmogoyf). Since there was also Baleful, the colours BUG were identified pretty early and Tourach also became an include.

    Some people (myself included) tried to play a deck which had a core list which was almost the same of what would eventually became shardless bug, except of course there weren't shamans (nor abrupt decays).

    We all abandoned our effort because without acceleration the deck was too clunky. End of story.
    The deck without shamans does not exist. If you wanna try Birds of Paradise, have fun with that


    EDIT: see for reference (both list aren't mine)
    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=8940&iddeck=65317
    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=9140&iddeck=66803

    you can try something like that if you want, of course updating them with the new prints. But I don't believe you will find them satisfying.

    Maybe it would be better to try RUG (Robin waterfall), something like this:
    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=8735&iddeck=63755

    enjoy.

  5. #2605
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Fair enough, I wasn't aware, thanks for bringing it to my attention!

    This is also a really cool way to use Shardless Agent that suffered vs DRS. It's something Tom Kellock who wrote the article and myself brewed up for fun, but might be appealing to some?

    https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...ery-agent-pox/
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  6. #2606

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Fair enough, I wasn't aware, thanks for bringing it to my attention!

    This is also a really cool way to use Shardless Agent that suffered vs DRS. It's something Tom Kellock who wrote the article and myself brewed up for fun, but might be appealing to some?

    https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...ery-agent-pox/
    This is one of the most fun looking Legacy decks I have seen in a long time. Wow.

    Shardless into Sinkhole, are you kidding me?? That seems awesome. I'm definitely going to give this a try; my Sinkholes have been gathering dust since I was playing them in mono black several years ago.

    Also, just wanna say that in I think people are being too quick to dismiss BUG/Esper control decks with the reasoning that RUG's mana denial is too much for them.

    RUG's main deck is made of up cards that were printed before RTR (except Hooting Mandrills/TNN if you play them). If BUG/Esper could compete with it back then (without DRS or Abrupt Decay, mind you), I don't see why it can't now.

    Now whether the best BUG shell will include Shardless/Visions is another question, but I do expect there to be a top tier Baleful Strix/Decay/Goyf/Hymn deck in the meta.
    Nobody plays Legacy anymore, the tournaments are all too crowded

  7. #2607

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...gue-2018-07-14
    Looks like Shardless BUG sure is viable in the new meta people!

  8. #2608

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Wakkz View Post
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...gue-2018-07-14
    Looks like Shardless BUG sure is viable in the new meta people!
    Looks like there was a few 5-0's

    I assume this is the one you were referring to though...

    REDPANDA1217 (5-0)

    Planeswalker (4)
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2 Liliana of the Veil

    Creature (14)
    4 Baleful Strix
    2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    4 Shardless Agent
    4 Tarmogoyf

    Sorcery (5)
    3 Ancestral Vision
    2 Hymn to Tourach

    Instant (14)
    3 Abrupt Decay
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Fatal Push
    4 Force of Will

    Artifact (2)
    2 Umezawa's Jitte

    Land (21)
    2 Bayou
    1 Forest
    1 Island
    2 Misty Rainforest
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Swamp
    2 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Wasteland
    60 Cards

    Sideboard (15)
    2 Duress
    2 Engineered Plague
    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Toxic Deluge

  9. #2609

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Correct!
    I only have 1 jitte, but Im gonna build this list with maybe an extra ponder.

  10. #2610

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Anybody tried Noble Hierarch? It's a bit awkward that it doesnt producera black in a mainly black deck but if you run mostly black lands i think you can make T1 Noble, t2 hymn with daze-protection work consistently. Playing a dork is huge versus RUG.

  11. #2611
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Wakkz View Post
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...gue-2018-07-14
    Looks like Shardless BUG sure is viable in the new meta people!
    Theorycrafting alone proved this. For some reason people conveniently forgot Shardless still won games without DRS in their opener.
    The success though will be mostly tied to whether or not Counterbalance is out of control and warping the format to the point that cascade tutoring to/towards Decay is a necessary tactic.

    @JackaBo look at the previous page's discussion over Hierarch/Birds.

  12. #2612
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Wakkz View Post
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...gue-2018-07-14
    Looks like Shardless BUG sure is viable in the new meta people!
    I saw that.
    Can't believe it can CONSISTENTLY work with 21 lands and no mana ramp.
    (Sorry Fox, I have to disagree even in this thread <3)
    I don't believe on theorycrafting but most of all I don't believe in a list that has ZERO turn1 plays (obviously not considering push -only reactive- brainstorm -awful t1- and suspend ancestral vision as an opening). When I played Shardless I used to have at least SIX openers NOT COUNTING AV.

    This list is bound to awfully lose to any mana denial.

  13. #2613
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    I saw that.
    Can't believe it can CONSISTENTLY work with 21 lands and no mana ramp.
    (Sorry Fox, I have to disagree even in this thread <3)
    I don't believe on theorycrafting but most of all I don't believe in a list that has ZERO turn1 plays (obviously not considering push -only reactive- brainstorm -awful t1- and suspend ancestral vision as an opening). When I played Shardless I used to have at least SIX openers NOT COUNTING AV.
    DRS is being replaced on a 1:1 basis [or nearly 1:1] with other turn 1 plays; so turn 1 play amounts haven't really changed. Even with DRS legal this deck had a massive amount of turn 1 land, pass or turn 1 land -> meaningless non-DRS thing, pass. Shardless won and lost games based on ensuring mana at the 2 cmc mark [this is where all the stabilizing power is], which in DRS-legal times meant getting your two basics down [vs Wasteland] even when you had a hand with blue cards. Following a gameplan of securing 2 mana with the old mana base was definitely better when 4 of your topdecks (DRS) were able to maybe get the third color (and 3rd mana), which is why this deck should now heavily consider a basic Island to make any blue 1-drop a better opening play (particulary opening suspend with intent to play around Daze).

    Shardless isn't exactly a hard deck if you understand that establishing the 2 mana floor is more important than being able to cast/color fix all your spells when against [non-R/G Lands] Wasteland strategies - you sit back, topdeck a dual land [reaching 3 mana mark] and cast whatever spell that became castable, it's better than what the Wasteland deck is doing. The two secure mana principle is central to any good stuff strategy whether it's Blade, Shardless, Maverick, Jund, etc.. or Czech, which until the ban was just the best version of good stuff (they're all the same thing, and no matter what tools they chose they were inferior to the combination of Hymn/SCM/Kcomm). Different mana plans can work (overwhelming Wasteland with land heavy hands, playing poorly and randomly dodging enemy Wasteland due to variance), but the 2 secure mana via basics is generally the most likely to produce high win percentage. The turn 1's of Shardless, particularly pre-board, have never been that important to how games go...unless they fetched/presented a dual; then they probably deserved to lose.

  14. #2614
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    DRS is being replaced on a 1:1 basis [or nearly 1:1] with other turn 1 plays
    I'm sorry, can you please list them others turn 1 plays?
    Maybe we are referring to different lists, in the one above I only see brainstorm (which apart being awful as a turn 1 play, was already there), fatal push, and suspend Ancestral Vision (which again was already there). So can you please tell me what it is that I am missing, which exactly are the cards that took the place of DRS?

    Of course I agree with the securing the manabase and the two lands part, but I disagree with the discussion as how the match should play, I think you will easily lose to canadian threshold, which has been the default fault-back deck of choice, at least here in Italy, as soon as deathrite was banned and the "goose got loose". You "just have" to reach three mana against wasteland and stifle when a delver is eating your life total, and playing your bomb into daze, and you think this is better than "anything" the opponent could be doing?!

    As for the plan "you only have to topdeck", I think its speaks for itself

  15. #2615
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    I'm sorry, can you please list them others turn 1 plays?
    I'm talking about SDT/CB Shardless lists. The classic version only had DRS, Visions, and BS as opening plays (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12147&d=2...=LE&show_pts=Y). Then CB went away and you have this weird period of time where Shardless is doing different things with Goyf numbers (Leovold/Fatal Push) and maybe some maindeck 1cmc discard - but this is all happening in the era where people don't really fully understand that Shardless is crappy Czech (Counterbalance isn't running rampant preventing SCM, played without CB, from resolving). People focus too much on 2-for-1 and mana ramping, the only thing that ever really mattered is that Decay-caster Mage (Shardless Agent) had a cast trigger to dig to/towards Decay targeting Counterbalance. You know UW is going straight back to CB for RUG Delver and R/G Lands, non-CB SCMs stop resolving and that's how we know Shardless is a deck again.

  16. #2616
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Sorry I don't know if I understand you reasoning, I'll try to synthesize: we expect more RUG, so on the miracle side we expect more counterbalance, so decay is a thing. Is it right?
    If so, the consequence is "BGx is strong", not "shardless without mana accelerants is a thing".

    (by the way as I said I don't care of "classic versions", I always played with maindeck thoughtseize and multiple turn-1 plays in the era when miracle had top legal, and stopped playing shardless alltogether when leovold was printed and miracle lose top).

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    By that logic RUG Delver will punish every single non-combo Abrupt Decay pile of any variety...or is this where someone says Maverick
    No, because not all BGx pile lists display the same grade of "clunkiness"... for example you can play other mana dorks (somebody suggested Hierarchs, I personally don't like this option but someone is testing them, somebody even tried birds of paradise), or you can lower your overall curve (less 3drops in favour of more 2 drops), increase your total number of lands (I'd suggest 22) and play more basic lands.


    Also for the sake of honesty and a fair discussion I'd like an answer to:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    DRS is being replaced on a 1:1 basis [or nearly 1:1] with other turn 1 plays
    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    I'm sorry, can you please list them others turn 1 plays?
    Either you please list the 4 1-drop who are replacing deathrite in the list above or you admit the first sentence is wrong. Thank you.

  17. #2617
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    I agree with Talpa.
    After drs ban, I think that this archetype could be unplayable. Against RUG Delver, with any kind of build, a flipped delver on t2 can be a match-loss. CC3 against stifle/wasteland/daze? damn...unplayable.
    There are a lot of specific casting costs: baleful strix, abrupt decay, leovold, shardless, lilianas....Against D&T and RUG Delver matchups? 0-2....
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  18. #2618
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    Either you please list the 4 1-drop who are replacing deathrite in the list above or you admit the first sentence is wrong. Thank you.
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...gue-2018-07-14

    This was linked before, go look at RedPanda's list, you will count 10x 1-drops. This is comparable to classic Shardless which only ran ~11-12x 1-drops as linked my previous post (counting Ancestral as 1-drop). The swap was 4x DRS -> 3x Fatal Push. You're welcome.

    To rehash: the replacement for DRS is either mana dork, discard, or removal with few exceptions. RedPanda's list is too clunky, playing 6x payoff spells above 2cmc with color reqs , , and (in addition to the 4x Agent), he also went to 21 lands. The mana curve of 10/15/10 (1/2/3+ not counting FoW) isn't a great place to be, but you get to 12/15/7 (add a land, add some 1cmc discard) and it's probably good enough.

    My assessment isn't BGx is strong, it's that you can't play magic against Counterbalance unless you run one of the uninteractives: CB, Decay, Boseju, Cavern, Vial, Chalice, K-Grip, E. Firecraft. DRS is gone, Decay is harder to justify splashing, and yet you still need it because Counterbalance not only hoses RUG Delver & R/G Lands, but the format shifts back towards two drops away from higher cmcs. When CB is oppressive (and Hymn/SCM/Kcomm can't run Decay), Shardless is playable - I don't consider Shardless to be an independently good deck that naturally rises, based on its own merit, to the tier 1.5 discussion outside of that context.

    The family of BUG (the ones that see play b/c they compete) goes from BUG Thresh -> Team America -> Shardless -> Aluren/Food Chain. You make a choice to be good vs miracles by shifting to the right, or you slide left and have a generally better deck against the rest of the format. You get past Team America and you see the first instances of basic land use and cards that grind out CA (i.e. have a comeback mechanism and the basics to work towards those cmcs). The point between Team America and Shardless is important, because that's where the decision to run, or not run, Strix is made (surrendering all intent to maintain tempo, in a color combination without access burn).

  19. #2619
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    However, Fatal push is not a turn 1 play unless your opponent gives you something you want to kill.

    I think that without mana dorks this deck needs to play fullset of ponders (which btw is a turn 1 play), because you want to hit your land drops in your first 4-5 turns, but don't want to flood too much in the late game.
    However I don't know if it will be enough to make this a good deck: meta will tell.
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  20. #2620

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Anybody mind sharing their current lists?
    I am starting with this http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD12713W/
    Thinking about moving Thoughtseizes and Bitterblossom / Jitte in the main. Blossom crushes Miracles and stops Marit Lage until we find an answer.
    Most of our games we have no t1 play and just drop a fetchland, turn 2-3 is where the fun starts. Still never played against any Delver decks.

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