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Thread: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

  1. #2581
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Black removal is just at a strange place right now.

    We get Decay... which is slow, fatal push... which can't hit a good chunk of legacy... and brutality? I don't really know...

    removal is obviously the weak point of the deck currently.
    "eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"

  2. #2582
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Guess I'm gonna keep going.

    3-1 tonight with a very low to the ground list with no "endgame" cards. Wanted to be as consistent as possible and without counterbalance around you don't have to worry about a low curve.

    4 DRS
    4 Shardless Agent
    4 Baleful Strix
    4 Grim Flayer

    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Force of Will

    3 Abrupt Decay

    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ancestral Visions

    22 land
    3 basics
    0 wasteland

    Killing people was a problem sometimes but DRS drain was usually enough. The goal was to just be as disruptive as possible with discard and force of will and then piling it on the the card advantage and the draw set up of Flayer.

    Most decks cannot deal with a protected Flayer and he ensures that you are only drawing gas every turn.

    That being said, I know I need some sort of jace/liliana in here...but it was fun!
    "eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"

  3. #2583

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    How is Shardless in the current meta? When Top got banned I switched to Aluren but I've been getting clobbered for months.


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  4. #2584

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch253 View Post
    How is Shardless in the current meta? When Top got banned I switched to Aluren but I've been getting clobbered for months.


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    You see the recent fusion? I like it a lot.https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...ews-from-japan


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  5. #2585
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control


  6. #2586
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrothgar View Post
    I tested a similar list. Goyf is so bad right now.
    Maybe a Planeswalker oriented deck is the way to go for the future.
    Jace is also not really shining with all the blasts around but still the best.
    Going up to 3 Lilianas in combination with Hymn/Vision is so good and she can close out games pretty fast.
    I would still play some numbers of AD and one Toxic MB.
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  7. #2587
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    I don't think a 3-0 against ANT is very representative for the Deck and the Matchup as well as the position in the Meta. He drew almost perfect against the Storm opponents, in my opinion the MU is usually very bad. By reference my experience was to draw in the Matchup to improve the power of the Discard Spells and increasing the chance of getting FOW + blue Card for the pitch. I am convinced that this Deck is very good against the Czech Pile Decks, but has more negative Matchups at the moment.

  8. #2588

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    so, after menguccis videos recently i felt some nostalgia since i had played shardless by heart for a long time (Food chain in paper now... but not on mtgo please). First of all, i agree the matchups he faced were anything but representing the current meta... but still i wanted to give it a shot (or a few more)

    Ive really tried to make the deck work in the last few days and wasted a ton of Tix in the process and tried various configurations inspired by mtggoldfish and so on. Long Story Short, if you havent sold your agents yet, do it before they are worth their net weight of paper.

    Theorycrafting i already thought the deck might not be that well positioned right now, but its even way worse than i ever expected. Played like 6 Leagues, the best i could do was 3-2, had one 2-3 and several 0-X Drop events.

    The deck always had a bad combo matchup but to be honest with Leovold things have improved to a certain degree, Baleful Strix and leovold make Grizzlebrand way worse then it used to be. I tried 4 maindeck Hymns as well as the split with 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Hymns which seems correct imho. Yes, you can somehow win even G1īs that way against combo decks. But still, even when sideboarding a ton of hate, u still are weak to combo decks. Especially if Sneak Show comes up with Leyline of Sanctity u can basically go hang yourself.

    So, if close to 30% of the meta are bad matchups, where is shardless good at?

    Grinding! At least thats what it used to be several years ago. The latest inclusion called Leovold, is way better on your opponents side of the table than it is on yours. A resolved Leovold which you dont have an immediate anwser for, is way too often simply game over. You cant control what your agents hit and most of the cards you can potentially hit are abyssimal with leovold in play. But even if your opponent doesnt happen to have leovold. Ive lost 2 games against Czech Pile, where i managed to resolve 2 Ancestral Visions and still simply got outgrinded by Hymn, Strix, Snapcaster and especially adding Kolaghans Command to that mix. You want to grind? Czech Pile is the way superior deck. Sure you can have those games where you crush them, but this is the total exception. And when it comes to long games, our deck is one of the leat consistent blue decks, since you only play several brainstorms to really filter your draws. You will end up drawing situational garbage, while they will find what they need.

    So if the current Control decks are negative to even at best Matchups, what about delver?

    yup, Grixis simply goes under the deck and is also even at best, especially against stifle you dont stand a chance. Same goes for UR Delver which beats you to the face and brings in the rest via burn and Price of Progress. Hey, at least against BUG delver i feel ahead, which is like 3% of the meta? And dont forget, even BUG delver plays Leovold now, which can run away with the games if played in the right spot.

    Ok, so delver isnt that great either?

    What is then? Very simple, there simply are no great or even positive matchups for shardless (except maybe some fringe tier 5 decks who nobody gives a damn about). But without any issues tons of abyssimal matchups like lands, elves and so on come to my mind.

    If you dont beleive me, try it yourself. The deck simply has no more spot in the meta of 2017, though gambling on cascades is fun. But as far as i am concerned shardless is completely dead and if you plan on sticking with shardless agent dont forget to take the extra money to play in sideevents after round 4.

    My 2 Cents

  9. #2589
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Agreed. Aluren is fun, but is the only home for Shardless Agent at the moment.

    I cannot believe people are trying to get Grim Flayer to play in Legacy. This is a lost cause.

  10. #2590

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Grim flayer might be the only card i didnt try cause i Couldnt see how it fixed any issues of the deck in the first place

  11. #2591
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by janchu88 View Post
    so, after menguccis videos recently i felt some nostalgia since i had played shardless by heart for a long time (Food chain in paper now... but not on mtgo please). First of all, i agree the matchups he faced were anything but representing the current meta... but still i wanted to give it a shot (or a few more)

    Ive really tried to make the deck work in the last few days and wasted a ton of Tix in the process and tried various configurations inspired by mtggoldfish and so on. Long Story Short, if you havent sold your agents yet, do it before they are worth their net weight of paper.

    Theorycrafting i already thought the deck might not be that well positioned right now, but its even way worse than i ever expected. Played like 6 Leagues, the best i could do was 3-2, had one 2-3 and several 0-X Drop events.

    The deck always had a bad combo matchup but to be honest with Leovold things have improved to a certain degree, Baleful Strix and leovold make Grizzlebrand way worse then it used to be. I tried 4 maindeck Hymns as well as the split with 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Hymns which seems correct imho. Yes, you can somehow win even G1īs that way against combo decks. But still, even when sideboarding a ton of hate, u still are weak to combo decks. Especially if Sneak Show comes up with Leyline of Sanctity u can basically go hang yourself.

    So, if close to 30% of the meta are bad matchups, where is shardless good at?

    Grinding! At least thats what it used to be several years ago. The latest inclusion called Leovold, is way better on your opponents side of the table than it is on yours. A resolved Leovold which you dont have an immediate anwser for, is way too often simply game over. You cant control what your agents hit and most of the cards you can potentially hit are abyssimal with leovold in play. But even if your opponent doesnt happen to have leovold. Ive lost 2 games against Czech Pile, where i managed to resolve 2 Ancestral Visions and still simply got outgrinded by Hymn, Strix, Snapcaster and especially adding Kolaghans Command to that mix. You want to grind? Czech Pile is the way superior deck. Sure you can have those games where you crush them, but this is the total exception. And when it comes to long games, our deck is one of the leat consistent blue decks, since you only play several brainstorms to really filter your draws. You will end up drawing situational garbage, while they will find what they need.

    So if the current Control decks are negative to even at best Matchups, what about delver?

    yup, Grixis simply goes under the deck and is also even at best, especially against stifle you dont stand a chance. Same goes for UR Delver which beats you to the face and brings in the rest via burn and Price of Progress. Hey, at least against BUG delver i feel ahead, which is like 3% of the meta? And dont forget, even BUG delver plays Leovold now, which can run away with the games if played in the right spot.

    Ok, so delver isnt that great either?

    What is then? Very simple, there simply are no great or even positive matchups for shardless (except maybe some fringe tier 5 decks who nobody gives a damn about). But without any issues tons of abyssimal matchups like lands, elves and so on come to my mind.

    If you dont beleive me, try it yourself. The deck simply has no more spot in the meta of 2017, though gambling on cascades is fun. But as far as i am concerned shardless is completely dead and if you plan on sticking with shardless agent dont forget to take the extra money to play in sideevents after round 4.

    My 2 Cents
    Could you please give us a Decklist you used?

  12. #2592
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    After play Shardels for years, in the last small event I've pilot 4c and, facing Shardless piloted by a good player, I've seems the matchup not easy but slightly in favor of 4c. Simple the cascade mechanic is, in the 50% of times, randomic...and this is no good vs a deck who have a lot of resources like 4c.
    Kolaghan give to 4c the chance to make great advantage in board destroying Shardless and Shaman, and a single Leovold in the right moment give to Ancestral Vision the simple -1 in hand valor.

    Two times in game i've face Ancestral with 1 time counter:

    - the first i've setup the right cards in top of library with Jace and play Leovold at the right moment;
    - the second i've top deck it in the right moment (happens).

    Playing all the match with a lot of attention I've feel the matchup not easy, for sure, but slightly in favor of 4c.

    From a Shardless perceptive I suppose is not great face Kolaghan Command + Snap, Jace, Shaman, Hymn and Strix.

    There are a GREAT difference from 4c and Shardless.
    4c do not leave nothing to the random draw / cascade, thanks to 4 Ponder too, and this is simply a good thing for the improve of the gameplan.

  13. #2593
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    It's pretty simple. Ponder is way better than Ancestral Vision at the moment, Snapcaster is better than Shardless Agent as well. Leovold makes Ancestral Vision to a big weakness.
    Why should we play Shardless BUG anymore?

    Yesterday I tested this list on MTGO and was a bit unlucky (Flooded and Mana Screw) with my draws, but I am also convinced the times of Shardless BUG are over.

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Fatal Push
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    2 Abrupt Decay
    1 Toxic Deluge
    4 Force of Will
    1 Liliana of the Veil
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Tarmogoyf
    2 Baleful Strix
    2 Leovold
    4 Shardless Agent

    22 Lands (10 Fetchland, 7 Duals, 1 Creeping Tar Pit, 1 Swamp, 1 Forest and 2 Wasteland)

    SB:
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Null Rod
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Baleful Strix
    2 Golgari Charm
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope
    1 Maelstrom Pulse
    1 Mindbreak Trap

  14. #2594

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    So I've noticed that the problems with the deck are its removal. We need to get lucky with Lili activations against Gurmag Anglers and probably take some amount of damage against Reality Smashers to play a Maelstrom Pulse unless we do manage to snap off the Force.

    We're no longer getting sick freebies by being one of the few decks to answer Swords of X and Y and Counterbalances. Now we're looking for ways to get rid of the myriad of creatures patrolling Legacy right now.

    The best we've got is Dismember which is pricey but the only reliable way to get rid of the creatures currently plaguing Shardless. Others are upping their number of Baleful Strixes which is also one of the only other ways to deal with these creatures while cantripping. It just allows for the decks we're playing it against to react to it.

    We could also go deeper on the number of planeswalkers we play so that we can hope to get luckier.

    As far as I can tell, Dismember is our best bet.

  15. #2595
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by HateKnuckle View Post
    So I've noticed that the problems with the deck are its removal. We need to get lucky with Lili activations against Gurmag Anglers and probably take some amount of damage against Reality Smashers to play a Maelstrom Pulse unless we do manage to snap off the Force.

    We're no longer getting sick freebies by being one of the few decks to answer Swords of X and Y and Counterbalances. Now we're looking for ways to get rid of the myriad of creatures patrolling Legacy right now.

    The best we've got is Dismember which is pricey but the only reliable way to get rid of the creatures currently plaguing Shardless. Others are upping their number of Baleful Strixes which is also one of the only other ways to deal with these creatures while cantripping. It just allows for the decks we're playing it against to react to it.

    We could also go deeper on the number of planeswalkers we play so that we can hope to get luckier.

    As far as I can tell, Dismember is our best bet.
    The easiest solution to Gurmag Angler is to grow Tarmogoyf to a 5/6, which shouldn't be difficult with 7-8 Artifact Creatures. I haven't settled on a list yet, but I'm pretty convinced that you want to be light on Planeswalkers, Hymns, and Vision, and heavy on Collective Brutality, Thoughtseize, and Ponder.

  16. #2596
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Well you got your deck back, have fun with those DRS becoming Thoughtseize. Question is, are you guys staying on Goyf and Liliana-otV or is Leo and Liliana, the Last Hope the new face of this archetype?

  17. #2597

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    We had a nice run together you and I.
    I stayed true to you even when top was banned and shardless left the tiers. But now when DRS is gone also, its finally time to attend the funeral.




  18. #2598
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    I also can't imagine how such a clunky Deck could exist without the mana fixing and versatility of DRS

  19. #2599
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by EronRelentless View Post
    I also can't imagine how such a clunky Deck could exist without the mana fixing and versatility of DRS
    Well you're going to have to imagine it, because miracles is going to be spamming Counterbalance across the format in response to RUG Delver and R/G Lands. If you want to play fair magic, you need Decay; you'll also need Strix if you want to have game against Delver without playing Delver. Czech's SCMs don't reliably resolve vs CB so they need more Decays, then they're on Shardless as they have to drop red for the deck with a cast trigger that digs to or towards Decay. If the mana is an issue, Shardless can drop Wasteland, but the rest of the deck is mostly solved once DRS becomes Thoughtseize.

  20. #2600
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Well you're going to have to imagine it, because miracles is going to be spamming Counterbalance across the format in response to RUG Delver and R/G Lands. If you want to play fair magic, you need Decay; you'll also need Strix if you want to have game against Delver without playing Delver. Czech's SCMs don't reliably resolve vs CB so they need more Decays, then they're on Shardless as they have to drop red for the deck with a cast trigger that digs to or towards Decay. If the mana is an issue, Shardless can drop Wasteland, but the rest of the deck is mostly solved once DRS becomes Thoughtseize.
    and RUG delver with punish you so hard to play this cluncky pile..

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