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Thread: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

  1. #41

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by EviLDemon View Post
    I'm trying this build right now:

    // Artifacts:
    2 Sensei's Divining Top

    // Creatures:
    4 Shardless Agent
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Baleful Strix
    2 Vendilion Clique

    // Planeswalkers:
    2 Liliana of the Veil

    // Enchantments:
    3 Pernicious Deed

    // Sorceries & Instants
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Ancestral Vision
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    3 Abrupt Decay


    // Lands:
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    3 Bayou
    2 Misty Rainforest
    3 Polluted Delta
    1 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland

    It's working pretty well. Liliana is a must, helped in so many games. I tried to fit Deathrite Shaman, but I don't know which cards to withdraw.
    You can start with deed. It's in most cases one turn too slow and now when you run shaman, you have to hit 3+ cards to make CA.
    While Lili being very strong against a lot of decks you aren't happy everytime you have to discard. She only makes CA with her ultimate or 2x sac. Not that fast imo, maybe I'll try something else in that 2 slots.
    I wasn't happy with top. Against aggro it's also too slow and control is a great matchup anyway.
    Don't underestimate therapies instead of hymns. With agent and strix you have all possibilities to get rid of the cards you fear atm. Hymn does this at random...
    21 lands without acceleration is few in my eyes even if you want to play cc4 spells.

  2. #42
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    I've been toying with the following list:

    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Shardless Agent
    2 Tarmogoyf
    4 Baleful Strix
    2 Esperzoa

    2 Liliana of the Veil
    3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2 Life from the Loam

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Ancestral Vision
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    3 Abrupt Decay

    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Forest
    1 Bayou
    1 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Misty Rainforest
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland

    ~

    Might change a Strix out for another Goyf, but it run really well so far. I like the Planeswalker control lock backed by creatures.

    Esperzoa + Jace + Shardless Agent nets you a ton of card advantage, too.
    Currently playing Manipulate Fates. Learn about the Magic Card Market.

  3. #43

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper3k View Post
    @EvilDemon: I'm running a very similar list right now, but still loving the Jaces. Do you miss the extra Brainstorming at all to set up Cascades?
    Nope, the top (with the help of some fetchs) do whatever I need. Also T4 for this deck is hard to reach against some decks, and liliana just helped me a lot. After T4 normally I'll try to stay with no cards in hand(to use the +1 without fear) and keep letting an abrupt decay on top with my top. After I get to this position it's hard to not win, you'll keep getting the right cards on your drawstep(always putting ingame(goyf,shardless,baleful)) and using liliana's hability. Most of the time the other player (if he doesn’t stop liliana soon) he won't be able to do anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by whiley85 View Post
    You can start with deed. It's in most cases one turn too slow and now when you run shaman, you have to hit 3+ cards to make CA.
    While Lili being very strong against a lot of decks you aren't happy everytime you have to discard. She only makes CA with her ultimate or 2x sac. Not that fast imo, maybe I'll try something else in that 2 slots.
    I wasn't happy with top. Against aggro it's also too slow and control is a great matchup anyway.
    Don't underestimate therapies instead of hymns. With agent and strix you have all possibilities to get rid of the cards you fear atm. Hymn does this at random...
    21 lands without acceleration is few in my eyes even if you want to play cc4 spells.
    I do think therapies are way better than hymns, but you'll need a great knowledge of the enemy's deck (which I don't have right now =/).
    Deed helped me a lot against many things, but I'll try. Thanks!
    I didn't played a lot, but almost any match I played top I won; It helps so much the cascade and the overall draw.

  4. #44
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    I've found that much of the time I've been wishing I had more than 2 Tops and oftentimes am forced to blind Cascade with Shardless Agent.

    However, the times I've had multiple Tops on the board makes me want to punch myself in the nuts (although it's not horrible with fetches).

    I've just pretty much never been sad to see Jace hit the board on top of being another blue card to pitch to Force (one of the problems the deck seems to have is a relatively low blue card count).

    Another issue I've had with Liliana in testing is that with all the card advantage we generate, I've ended up in many times where I have cards, they have 0 cards so I don't want to +1 Liliana.

  5. #45

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    I've been having a decent amount of succes with an a bit of the wall build:


    //Creatures:
    4 Baleful Strix
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    2 Scavenging Ooze
    4 Shardless Agent
    2 Tarmogoyf
    1 Vendilion Clique

    //Spells:
    3 Abrupt Decay
    3 Ancestral Vision
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Force of Will
    1 Inquisition of Kozilek
    1 Life from the Loam

    //Planeswalkers:
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Liliana of the Veil

    //Artifacts:
    1 Umezawa's Jitte

    //Lands:
    2 Bayou
    1 Forest
    1 Island
    3 Misty Rainforest
    1 Swamp
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    3 Wasteland

    //Sideboard
    1 Inquisition of Kozilek
    2 Spell Pierce
    1 Submerge
    1 Thoughtseize
    3 Engineered Plague
    2 Pernicious Deed
    1 The Abyss
    3 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Vraska the Unseen


    In honesty, vraska and the abyss are not suposed to be in the sideboard. I just enjoy playing some cookie cards! :)

    Piloted this to a 5-0-1 at a local turney yesterday.

    Small recap:
    Round 1: bye
    Round 2: Thalia Zoo.
    G1: I am able to handle his early pressure, stabilize and bury his lands with recurring loam/waste.
    G2: A long one as I am unable to apply pressure, but i keep him away trough a t3 the abyss. I finally get some agents going along with jace and its a win.
    Win with a t3 the abyss: Achievement completed! :D
    2-0
    Round 3: My cusine, playing UG infect.
    G1: open a hand of 3x Abrupts, which leads to a blowout.
    G2: I make a terrible misplay, and he wins with a misdirection on my decay.
    G3: I am able to throw a submerge on his t2 all-in play and takes it from there.
    3-0
    Round 4: Mirror, against BUG control. Differint build, but mirror nonetheless.
    G1: He grinds this one out through 2x thragtusk (Which is awesome in the mirror, sooo much value!
    g2: Close one, with lots of grinding away. I do however manage to stick my Vraska, and I win with her assasins following a misplay from my opp.
    G3: I am closing in on the win, but time is called and I am a turn or 2 away from closing the deal.
    3-0-1
    Round 5: Elves.
    G1: He combos, i lose.
    G2+3: Plagues and deeds, along with timely disruption takes him down, even though i almost punted G2.
    4-0-1
    Round 6: BW taxes
    G1: Lots of discard flowing back and forth, but I stick a jace, and are able to pile a visions to follow a agent twice, and thats enough to seal the deal.
    Really long game, means very short time for g2.
    G2: I just play defence, not allowing serious threats, and he scoops with an emty battlefield as we go to time.
    5-0-1

    All in all I loved this deck. I wouldnt consider changing very much from the main, weakest card is lili, she might become a jace.
    A couple of thragtusks are also being considered having seen them in action, they are so much value, and I love value and CA.

    Bad MUs include burn and S&T. Other than that i feel good. I like never beeing out of a match, as this can com back from a lot! :D

  6. #46

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    So I've been playing a list pretty close to Demars' original one and I've been crushing. Played a bunch of games against Burn and UR Delver the other day and very literally just died in a fire almost every time. Any ideas? Early Hymns were good but putting a clock on them was hard. Basically need multiple Goyfs to race. Scavenging Ooze was decent out of the board but not great at all. Has anyone tried a countertop package out of the SB? Seems like its crush burn and a lot of other random rogue MUs. we already have lots of ways to manipulate the top of our deck so it doesn't seem too hard to fit in.

  7. #47
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Burn is traditionally a tough matchup for BUG anyways. I bring in Oozes and Jitte since that life gain is key to staying alive.

    I haven't found UR to be as bad because they tend to have less burn spells for dudes and countermagic... which makes Abrupt Decay better against them.

    Post board, I actually take out Hymns, Jaces, and Cliques. Hymns are terrible mid-late game against a deck that can drop it's hand so quickly. Jace is too slow and Cliques only trade with creatures and don't actually defend you like a Tarmogoyf does.

    I actually keep Force of Will in because we generally generate enough card advantage to compensate for it and if Price of Progress resolves, we generally die (even if we fetch basics and Wasteland our own lands).

  8. #48
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    I've gone back to testing this deck. Although the main list that people are currently working with is good, I think there is one card that would greatly help the deck: Deathrite Shaman.

    [edit: going back through the thread, I see that this guy has been suggested several times, but I haven't seen too many lists actually incorporating it.]

    In this deck, Deathrite Shaman performs several very important functions:
    -It provides both reach AND lifegain, both of which can be a problem for BUG. It can drain the last few points of damage in a stalemate or help keep you alive and out of Lightning Bolt range after you've established board control
    -99% of the time it will be capable of providing acceleration as well. In a format full of fetches and Wastelands, you shoudn't typically have much trouble using it for this purpose. This deck is incredibly mana-hungry and has pretty awkward mana requirements.
    -It gives you a bit of breathing room against Goblins if they have an aggressive start with Lackey. It also blocks unthreshed Mongeese and unflipped Delvers like a champ, and will help keep Mongoose small.
    -It serves as maindeck graveyard hate, and will help out against decks with annoying recursion strategies.
    -It's another one-drop for a deck that otherwise doesn't have much early action.

    Now admittedly, it's not a very impressive card to flip via Shardless Agent, but that's a small risk to run for so many benefits. And Agent is only one part of this deck's strategy, and the list I've been testing only has 3 anyways.

    Now the question is, how do we make room for this card and what changes should be made. I think we can cut the land count down to 21 since Shaman will be providing us some mana, and also we should consider changing the split of Decay/Deed from 3/3 to 4/2. I think we can also shave a Sensei's Top. I'm also thinking we can cut either the Baleful Strix or Snapcaster Mages, or one of each.

    As for the sideboard, I definitely feel that 3 Counterbalances are a necessity, and perhaps some more SDT's to help out with that strategy. Without the counterspells, Storm strategies will be problematic, and Counterbalance is also incredibly good against stuff like Burn and RUG. I also think there should be some cards to help out against the UW Miracles deck that is very popular now, and I think more Jaces and Vendilion Cliques are probably the best options. Maybe some Malestrom Pulse(s) too.

    [edit 2: I see that both the RUG and BUG cascade decks are beginning to converge into a 4-color monstrosity. I think that this might be a great approach going forward, and that BBE and red removal might actually strengthen the deck more than the midrangey elements found in the pure BUG build...]

  9. #49
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    As of now, this is my list; i'm going to a tournament on saturday so i'll let you guys know how it goes.

    EDIT: Well i went 2-3. I won all my creature based matchups, but lost to U/W Miracles three times. Apparently we have no good answer to Jace, the Mind Sculptor and we need more of it. don't know how to fix it, but we can't pressure Jace enough with the creatures we have, one Terminus and we're gone and we cannot counter it unless we have force of will. The game i won against them i drew 3 force of will. So i was 1-6 against Miracles.

    Creatures
    1 Snapcaster Mage
    3 Tarmogoyf
    4 Shardless Agent
    2 Vendillion Clique
    4 Deathrite Shaman

    Enchantments
    3 Pernicious Deed

    Instants
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    3 Abrupt Decay

    Planeswalkers
    3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    Sorceries
    3 Ancestral Vision
    4 Hymn to Tourach

    Basic Lands
    1 Forest
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    Lands
    2 Bayou
    3 Misty Rainforest
    3 Polluted Delta
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Underground Sea
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland

    2 Nihil Spellbomb
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    2 Krosan Grip
    2 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Vendilion Clique
    4 Thoughtseize
    2 Liliana of the Veil

    Let me know what you think, it has some weaknesses to both Mother of Runes and Omniscience, but it has the tools to defeat it to.
    Last edited by Stoyrm; 11-25-2012 at 08:17 AM.

  10. #50

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    I've been playtesting alot lately with a rather different BUG list, and im quite suprised i've never really found anything like it elsewhere.


    CREATURES (12)
    4 Shardless Agent
    4 Baleful Strix
    4 Deathrite Shaman

    SORCERIES (3)
    3 Ancestral Vision

    INSTANTS (11)
    3 Abrupt Decay
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will

    PLANESWALKERS (4)
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

    ARTIFACTS (8)
    1 Umezawa’s Jitte
    3 Sensei’s Divining Top
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Vedalken Shackles
    1 Crucible of Worlds

    LANDS (22)
    1 Bayou
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    3 Wasteland
    3 Misty Rainforest
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Polluted Delta
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Swamp
    1 Forest
    2 Island

    SIDEBOARD
    1 Darkblast
    3 Engineered Plague
    2 Dread of Night
    1 Nihil spellbomb
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Thoughtseize

    I really think the deck synergizes well, and i've never really understood why no1 really has tried to play tezz in a non superartifact heavy list. Even though you might not just hit his ulti pretty much as soon as you drop him, hes +1 and and -1 are still really strong! The chance of not finding an artifact on his +1 is superslim even thought only playing 16 artifacts esp considering you play loads fetchlands and SDT, + you got academy ruins.

    I think this deck has very strong control mirror match with very strong CA with the baleful + shardless + ancestral vision and both brainstorm + top + jace to set up vision. Tezz ofc also is very strong CA if he lives, which strixes easily make sure he does. Academy ruin strix combo or shardless is also extremly potent lategame, considering there is also crucible in there it's hard to ruin the synergy!

    Vs creature decks and aggro its also kinda good, baleful is king vs non mother creature decks, Decay is also very nice vs RUG since you dont have to worry about daze, pierce etc. Sboard is also kinda heavy with anticreature decks esp since mother rune can be annoying with decay as only target removal, however since addition of needle + vedalken in main things are much easier, there is also EE ofc :).

    I did playtest loads vs mav, RUG, death tax, and miracles and found those MU to be pretty nice, although i still need to playtest vs combo, although sideboard is mostly decdicated vs combo, IE 4 counterbalance and thoughtsize, figured it would fare ok vs most cept it's probably rather weak vs show and tell. Venser does not seem worthy of SBslots although i feel its the only real counter vs omniscience. Goblins i presume is hard mu as always with bug, esp without deed, therefore i 3 engyplague in board, altho guess still not enough?

    From my experience there aint that many slots to switch, the only ones im not beeing fairly certain on are the pithing needle and the vedalken, since mostly those matchups can anyways be handled most of the time. I'd really like to have a 4 Decay since its such a monster card, and also if i could fit a darkblast in main. There is also the option of having ratchet bomb instead of EE although i feel like EE is strictly better cept the fact you can cascade into ratchet, although from my testing its not often you don't know what ur cascading into.

    Would really appreciate some comments ! )

  11. #51
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Edit: wrong cascade thread
    Last edited by wcm8; 11-26-2012 at 08:30 AM.

  12. #52
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    @drfontaine: it looks like your list could benefit from 1 or 2 Trinket Mage, as you are running Engineered Explosives, Sensei's Divining Top, and Pithing Needle Maindeck. You could probably drop a Top if you did that.

    Also, I'd drop a Shaman for another Jace. In my experience, having a second one to pitch to FoW is helpful, plus the redundancy is great if your opponent takes out the first one.

    Fun list and looks like it could be quite effective. The Tezzeret + Strix synergy is awesome. And to help Tezzeret out, you could consider some more mana acceleration from Dimir Signet or Talisman of Dominance.
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  13. #53

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Superbig Thanks for the feedback Kyle!

    I would like to avoid the path of U/B tezz deck and play fullset of signet acceleration, and instead rely somewhat on the superallround and powerful deathrite instead, especially since its in most matchups a must remove, which offers protection for my animated b strixes, or other artifacts. Which can otherwize be quite a setback if you -1 tezz and ur creature gets removed by plow.

    Concerning the Trinket mage, i feel like shardless is just straight up better since hes an artifact IE can be tutored + animated with tezz, and placed on top with academy ruin. He also is quite good at finding tops on his own, and best of all he casts the spell for free instead of ending up in ur hand :). And in my current version i even reduced shardless to 3 pieces. He suffers the same issues as shardless IE a 2/2 body without eq which is very lacking esp for 3 mana :/, therefore i desperatly need the additional synergy of beeing an artifact ;). I also removed the pithing needle main since it's just too much of a dead card sometimes. I would however like the ability to find EE since its my only reliable tool vs mother rune which is very annoying vs this deck.

    I did however try a new approach for the list and can't decide whichever version i'd have the most faith with in a tournament. Right now im trying a version with counterbalance in main instead of SB since it does idd free up some more space in the very powerful sideboard of BUG colors! Also CB is an extremely powerful card to casc into, and it really is strong obv for the combo mu, but naturally also vs RUG, altho i feel this deck with 4x Adecay, 4x Baleful, and 3x Deathrite is exremely good vs rug, the only downside beeing shaky manabase.

    I cant decide which version i like the most, since the CB is ofc abit more versatile meanwhile the original list is better vs the fair decks, and esp good in control mirror! The one thing that annoys me is the worse MAV mu with the CB version, since so few counters vs mother rune preboard. Thalia is also very annoying since it messes up the deck while having first strike vs strix, altho dread of night takes care of that postboard.

    Tellme what you think of this version pls!! :)

    1 vedalken shackles
    4 sensei divining top
    1 Engy Explosives

    4 Baleful Strix
    3 Shardless Agent
    3 Deathrite Shaman

    3 Counterbalance

    4 Abrupt Decay
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will

    2 Jace
    3 Tezz

    2 Ancestral Vision
    1 Life from the Loam

    SB:

    1 Grafdiggers cage
    1 Nihil spellbomb
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Pithing Needle

    X???????

    3 Dread of Night
    3 Engineering Plague

    1 Darkblast

    3 Thoughtseize

    1 slot unsure

    THANKS alot !!

  14. #54
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    I think in any of these decks where you're trying to cascade into Ancestral Visions or suspend it on T1, playing less than 4 is probably incorrect.

  15. #55

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Regarding amount of ancestral vision i think that's really wrong, at least if your trying to play more of a control build. In that case #1 priority is surviving the early phase of the game, drawing multiple ancestral in early game doesn't improve board state. Imo if you only manage a single ancestral during a game its most often enough to win the game anyways. Praying you will cascade into ancestral is also just complete gamble, and for those kinda decks i think you should be playing WATERFALL cascade which is kinda different deck with RED, there you will blindly cascade into anything improving board state or you can just strike opponent with lightning in face! Those decks are obviuosly alot more about tempo which is quite different.

  16. #56
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by drfontaine View Post
    Regarding amount of ancestral vision i think that's really wrong, at least if your trying to play more of a control build. In that case #1 priority is surviving the early phase of the game, drawing multiple ancestral in early game doesn't improve board state. Imo if you only manage a single ancestral during a game its most often enough to win the game anyways. Praying you will cascade into ancestral is also just complete gamble, and for those kinda decks i think you should be playing WATERFALL cascade which is kinda different deck with RED, there you will blindly cascade into anything improving board state or you can just strike opponent with lightning in face! Those decks are obviuosly alot more about tempo which is quite different.
    That's the thing - with DeMars' original list, you actually don't pray you cascade into Ancestral that often. Between the Tops, Brainstorms, Jaces, you have a pretty good chance of setting it up yourself.

    Also, it's understood that Ancestral is the best thing we can cascade into, so it's important to maximize the chances of doing that or suspending it on T1.

    Playing it as a 2-of just means you're 1) even less likely to draw it in your opener, 2) even less likely to be able to set up a cascade into it, and 3) very unlikely to blind cascade into it (worst case scenerio with cascades).

  17. #57

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper3k View Post
    That's the thing - with DeMars' original list, you actually don't pray you cascade into Ancestral that often. Between the Tops, Brainstorms, Jaces, you have a pretty good chance of setting it up yourself.

    Also, it's understood that Ancestral is the best thing we can cascade into, so it's important to maximize the chances of doing that or suspending it on T1.

    Playing it as a 2-of just means you're 1) even less likely to draw it in your opener, 2) even less likely to be able to set up a cascade into it, and 3) very unlikely to blind cascade into it (worst case scenerio with cascades).
    Big problem is however there is never in the early game enough time to setup a known cascade, since the only real working scenario is when you find something truly useful from looking at top. Cause brainstorming to set it up early game just costs to much mana, and chances are your mana sources comes from fetches, ie fucking up your setup. And this in conjunction with wastelands, and daze/pierce etc makes it so unreliable anyways. So in a controlling build casting an agent for random cascade is generally not worth it from my pov. Unless ofc the agent itself presents worthwhile board presence on its own.

    This is the reason that in a controlling build i find the agent to be rather lacking, altho with the synergy with tezz at least it makes it decent, and considering it wins you game mid/late game in control mirrors or when estabilshed control and you can afford to setup ur cascades i still find it a pretty decent slot.

    I am however after further testign rather skeptical about CB in this BUG build. Playing a non reactive spell that can get countered (best case) turn 2 can sometimes already be too late, CB shines when it has access to 1mana wrath, or else it suffers to much tempoloss. There is a possibilty to include it as a 1of and not relying strategywize on the card, but just include as strong card, and therefore making more room in SB.

    I do however realize the reasoning is completely different considering a more mid/tempo oriented build. Which i guess this thread originally was about.

    I am once again back to playing 3 ancestral in my controlling build, and just reduced shardless as a 3of.

  18. #58
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    In a controlling build, you shouldn't be blind jamming a T3 Agent anyways. The longer you hold off on casting an Agent, the better your cascades become.

    Early turns should be spent clearing out the board and establishing your mana / setting up for future turns, imo. It's not like you're really going to be aggroing out with a T3 Agent anyways.

  19. #59

    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper3k View Post
    In a controlling build, you shouldn't be blind jamming a T3 Agent anyways. The longer you hold off on casting an Agent, the better your cascades become.

    Early turns should be spent clearing out the board and establishing your mana / setting up for future turns, imo. It's not like you're really going to be aggroing out with a T3 Agent anyways.
    Like i've been saying all along :/.

  20. #60
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    Re: [Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

    DrFontaine - Maybe I just like Intuition and Loam too much, but I think adding those two cards would be a powerful addition with all those artifacts. Intuition for Loam, Ruins, and relevant artifact can be backbreaking.

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