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Thread: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

  1. #41
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    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by HAVE HEART View Post
    EDIT: Going a step further, if I am the Maverick player and my opponent immediately performed an action that indicated he did not forget my Exalted triggers as well, then why would I not appeal to the judge that my opponent is very obviously cheating? Does this not lead to a next level where a person could purposely forget a trigger and bait their opponent into cheating.
    Your opponent is not responsible for remembering your triggers, even mandatory ones like Exalted, so they are not cheating.

    You, however, are still responsible for remembering your own triggers.

  2. #42

    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    Goblin Guide. With the old rules I was obliged to announce the attack trigger, but with the new rules I'll just fish everytime I attack with. If the opponent doesn't call it and I don't want to see his top card, freeroll?

    Now that's obviously cheating, but it's kinda hard to prove... "I was nervous!" and as you don't get punished for forgetting your triggers anymore.

    Right?

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    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by alderon666 View Post
    Goblin Guide. With the old rules I was obliged to announce the attack trigger, but with the new rules I'll just fish everytime I attack with. If the opponent doesn't call it and I don't want to see his top card, freeroll?

    Now that's obviously cheating, but it's kinda hard to prove... "I was nervous!" and as you don't get punished for forgetting your triggers anymore.

    Right?
    No, you still get punished for forgetting your own mandatory triggers. Just like before, if you get caught, it's a Missed Trigger warning (which escalates).

  4. #44
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    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by HAVE HEART View Post
    I am in the same boat as some others about being confused.

    Say my opponent is playing Maverick, and I snapblock his creature after he forgets to announce his Exalted triggers (in this example, a block that would not otherwise make sense if Exalted was correctly announced). I obviously KNOW he forgot his Exalted triggers, which is why I am snapblocking. This shows I am purposely not reminding my opponent of his Exalted triggers. This is cheating, right?

    How is this not the same with the Brain Freeze/Tendrils of Agony examples? If I am the opponent and I snapcall a judge over, put only three cards into my graveyard or lose only two life, then how am I not indicating that I, as the opponent, do not realize what is exactly happening in this situation? I obviously did not forget the Storm from either, so am I then cheating?

    EDIT: Going a step further, if I am the Maverick player and my opponent immediately performed an action that indicated he did not forget my Exalted triggers as well, then why would I not appeal to the judge that my opponent is very obviously cheating? Does this not lead to a next level where a person could purposely forget a trigger and bait their opponent into cheating.
    No, it is not cheating. If your opponent attacks without announcing Exalted you can simply block and eat the creature for free. If he forgets a trigger (and you want him to forget it), the trigger is gone. Poof.

    If, for some reason you want your opponent to remember his trigger (Dark Confidant the prime example) you can still force him to use it.

  5. #45
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    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    Seems like a huge waste of time. Given how much people bitch about SDT taking forever, I'm surprised no one has brought up the time factor. If you're playing Countertop, now instead if just announcing that you're topping in response to a spell, you're announcing the counterbalance trigger then responding to that. So you add an extra 3-5 seconds to every spell your opponent plays. Over the course of a game, that could be several minutes. Over the course of a match, it will definitely be several minutes. And god forbid you have to start announcing all your exalted triggers. This seems like it will make paper magic as unwieldy and lame as MTGO. Yes, shortcutting sometime benefits a bad player who would otherwise miss something. But it benefits both players by speeding the game along.
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    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules


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    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey View Post
    Seems like a huge waste of time. Given how much people bitch about SDT taking forever, I'm surprised no one has brought up the time factor. If you're playing Countertop, now instead if just announcing that you're topping in response to a spell, you're announcing the counterbalance trigger then responding to that. So you add an extra 3-5 seconds to every spell your opponent plays. Over the course of a game, that could be several minutes. Over the course of a match, it will definitely be several minutes. And god forbid you have to start announcing all your exalted triggers. This seems like it will make paper magic as unwieldy and lame as MTGO. Yes, shortcutting sometime benefits a bad player who would otherwise miss something. But it benefits both players by speeding the game along.
    This is similar to what I was thinking seems like over all announcing every single trigger you control can add a few seconds to ever turn in a already very complex game seems like adding a few minutes to tournament rounds might be needed
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    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    Saying "Attack Exalted" instead of "Attack" doesn't really add even 1 second to a turn. Storm as will usually happen only once during a game. However, what's actually going to make me feel like the biggest douchebag in the entire world is "getting" my inexperienced opponents at local tournaments. I don't want that. On the other hand, there's duals and Mana Drains up for grabs.

    What's gonna add the most "wasted" time is people discussing or not even being aware of the new rule in the first place.
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    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    Like the above post. (we really need a like/star/flag/etc. system)

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    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    Saying "Attack Exalted" instead of "Attack" doesn't really add even 1 second to a turn. Storm as will usually happens only once during a game. However, what's actually going to make me feel like the biggest douchebag in the entire world is "getting" my inexperienced opponents at local tournaments. I don't want that. On the other hand, there's duals and Mana Drains up for grabs.

    What's gonna add the most "wasted" time is people discussing or not even being aware of the new rule in the first place.
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    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    Saying "Attack Exalted" instead of "Attack" doesn't really add even 1 second to a turn. Storm as will usually happen only once during a game. However, what's actually going to make me feel like the biggest douchebag in the entire world is "getting" my inexperienced opponents at local tournaments. I don't want that. On the other hand, there's duals and Mana Drains up for grabs.

    What's gonna add the most "wasted" time is people discussing or not even being aware of the new rule in the first place.
    Yeah, im waiting eagerly how SCG crowd reacts to this after this weekend

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    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...gger-troubles/

    At the Pro Tour, in round three, my opponent forgot to reveal his card for Dark Confidant. He called a judge, and the judge asked me if I wanted to place his trigger on the stack now after it had been missed—I said no and he left. I thought this was very strange. When I appealed, the head judge basically said the same thing, that Dark Confidant was a beneficial trigger because, “who in their right mind would put a 2/1 for 1B in their deck if they didn’t want his benefit?”

    I found this very disconcerting—how can you say Dark Confidant is a beneficial trigger? It probably is if you’re at 15, but what if you have Emrakul in your deck and lethal on the table? Bob is likely a beneficial trigger when you’re at 20 and definitely not if you’re at 1, but what if you’re at 8? Who decides that?

    I also don’t like that my opponent didn’t get a warning for this, not because I’m some kind of rules lawyer who wants all his opponents to rack up warnings, but rather because if you are going to say that Confidant is a beneficial trigger and not give a warning for his missed trigger, then if I have Confidant in my deck and I’m at 1, I should just ignore the trigger every turn.

  13. #53
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    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    Sounds like that judge was both out of date with the IPG and wrong. The distinctiong between lapsing ("beneficial") and non-lapsing triggers was abolished in September, and even if it hadn't been, Dark Confidant's would very clearly not fall in the strictly defined lapsing category.
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    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Credo View Post
    Sounds like that judge was both out of date with the IPG and wrong. The distinctiong between lapsing ("beneficial") and non-lapsing triggers was abolished in September, and even if it hadn't been, Dark Confidant's would very clearly not fall in the strictly defined lapsing category.
    Let's leave lapsing out of it. However, whether a trigger is detrimental or not *is* something we care about now. Players missing a detrimental trigger receive a Warning. Players missing a non-detrimental (beneficial) trigger do not receive a penalty. If a judge observes a Missed Trigger where the opponent does not call you over, and the player does not receive a penalty, the judge should not intervene. This is the principle reason why we ignore the game state when determining whether a trigger is detrimental: the judge having to stop the match and investigate will tip the player off to their trigger.

    The judge at the time is correct. Dark Confidant's trigger is non-detrimental, and therefore players do not receive a penalty for missing it. The opponent still has the choice of whether the trigger should go on the stack.

    Incidentally the exact question from the article (who determines when Dark Confidant's trigger is good for you and when it is bad for you) is why Dark Confidant's trigger doesn't stop being beneficial when the opponent is at "low" life. Is a trigger beneficial or not is a strict "is this an upside or a downside?" question. Chalice of the Void triggering on your spells is obviously bad for you, but the triggered ability on Chalice of the Void is something you want to have happen; without that ability, the card is literally blank.

    tl;dr: Nihil Credo calling the judge "both out of date with the IPG and wrong" was both out of date with the IPG and wrong.

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    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Anusien View Post
    The judge at the time is correct. Dark Confidant's trigger is non-detrimental, and therefore players do not receive a penalty for missing it. The opponent still has the choice of whether the trigger should go on the stack.
    Just curious, but why is Dark Confidant's trigger considered non-detrimental even though there is a (what many would consider) detrimental component to it?

    I'm just wondering what is the definition for detrimental that's being used in these cases to define triggers?

    Thanks!

  16. #56

    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper3k View Post
    Just curious, but why is Dark Confidant's trigger considered non-detrimental even though there is a (what many would consider) detrimental component to it?

    I'm just wondering what is the definition for detrimental that's being used in these cases to define triggers?

    Thanks!
    There are a number of good rules of thumb (but they are rules of thumb, not hard and fast rules):
    *) Would you play this card without this ability?
    *) Does this ability make the card cost more or less?
    *) Is this ability an upside or a drawback?

    The compensation for a player missing a beneficial trigger when it would be bad for them is the opponent still gets the choice, if it's within a turn, to put it on the stack. And if it's a case where we believe the player did not actually forgot the trigger, we can intervene, even when it's beneficial. "So you never missed a Dark Confidant trigger, but then when you were at 1, you somehow 'forgot'?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by frogboy View Post
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  17. #57
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    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Anusien View Post
    There are a number of good rules of thumb (but they are rules of thumb, not hard and fast rules):
    *) Would you play this card without this ability?
    *) Does this ability make the card cost more or less?
    *) Is this ability an upside or a drawback?

    The compensation for a player missing a beneficial trigger when it would be bad for them is the opponent still gets the choice, if it's within a turn, to put it on the stack. And if it's a case where we believe the player did not actually forgot the trigger, we can intervene, even when it's beneficial. "So you never missed a Dark Confidant trigger, but then when you were at 1, you somehow 'forgot'?"
    Gotcha, thanks!

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    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Anusien View Post
    tl;dr: Nihil Credo calling the judge "both out of date with the IPG and wrong" was both out of date with the IPG and wrong.

    Sorry, couldn't resist ;)
    It's fine :) I did a ctrl-F for both "Beneficial" and "lapsing" in the IPG and only found the 'No more lapsing abilities' in the changelog. Turns out the new Missed Trigger section talks about 'generally considered detrimental' instead, so I choose to blame them for their otherwise reasonable vocabulary choices.

    That said, having seen the relevant paragraph, I find it a bit odd that the guidelines at the same time both (a) rely on the judge to decide if the ability is detrimental or not, instead of providing a list or strict criteria and (b) explicitly instruct the judge not to factor in the game state. If you're going to trust them to make the call of whether, say, Howling Banshee's trigger is 'detrimental' or not, then why not also trust them to tell a non-detrimental Confidant flip from a detrimental Confidant flip?
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    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Credo View Post
    It's fine :) I did a ctrl-F for both "Beneficial" and "lapsing" in the IPG and only found the 'No more lapsing abilities' in the changelog. Turns out the new Missed Trigger section talks about 'generally considered detrimental' instead, so I choose to blame them for their otherwise reasonable vocabulary choices.

    That said, having seen the relevant paragraph, I find it a bit odd that the guidelines at the same time both (a) rely on the judge to decide if the ability is detrimental or not, instead of providing a list or strict criteria and (b) explicitly instruct the judge not to factor in the game state. If you're going to trust them to make the call of whether, say, Howling Banshee's trigger is 'detrimental' or not, then why not also trust them to tell a non-detrimental Confidant flip from a detrimental Confidant flip?
    A) I have no idea how to tell when a Confidant flip is a good thing or a bad thing. What if you're at 1, but you Brainstormed LED to the top of your library last turn and I didn't see it? Making it game state dependent would cause these weird situations where different judges will disagree and radically alter the outcome of the match based on their own risk adverseness? That seems bad. Plus, the previous note about having to investigate the game state will tip off players to a trigger they missed.
    B) I explicitly emphasize the detrimental and non-detrimental terminology for this very reason
    C) Detrimental or not is not really intended to be a judgment call, any more than lapsing was. Lapsing did show us the downside of having a long list of criteria to memorize. The biggest areas of confusion we had with lapsing were attempting to cover the weird cases like this, where what we generally understand to be non-detrimental could in some .00001% case be bad for you. Once out of every thousand matches or so someone killed themselves with Glimpse of Nature does not make Glimpse of Nature's trigger bad for you.
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  20. #60

    Re: September 2, Updates to the Magic Tournament Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Credo View Post
    That said, having seen the relevant paragraph, I find it a bit odd that the guidelines at the same time both (a) rely on the judge to decide if the ability is detrimental or not, instead of providing a list or strict criteria and (b) explicitly instruct the judge not to factor in the game state. If you're going to trust them to make the call of whether, say, Howling Banshee's trigger is 'detrimental' or not, then why not also trust them to tell a non-detrimental Confidant flip from a detrimental Confidant flip?
    Suppose you're at five life with Bob in play and the top card of your library costs three. Is it detrimental to "forget" the Bob trigger? You won't die if you reveal, but going to two life could be an issue. What if your opponent has Lightning Bolt or a haste creature in hand? Does the judge consider that? Revealing to Bob then would be detrimental since you would die to the burn/haste guy. But if your opponent has no follow-up to punish you for being at two life, it isn't necessarily a bad thing to get your extra card...

    So what should a judge take into consideration? The detrimental nature of the Bob trigger here hinges on hidden information, supposing there isn't, say, a Grim Lavamancer or something in play. And even if there isn't, analyzing the board state to figure out if the Bob trigger is truly a detriment could take too long and is prone to errors or argument. It's better to just call it in a vacuum, I guess.

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