The Current Metagame: Junk vs Canadian Threshold

[Hanni]

This started off in The Rock thread, but I figured I'd toss it into Format Discussion instead.

With a metagame consisting of Miracles, Show and Tell decks, RUG Delver, with fewer aggro decks being played than in previous months (thanks in part to the first two mentioned decks), I'm not sure why Junk isn't seeing any play as the go to "tempo" deck.

RUG Delver is better equipped at beating fast combo decks like Storm with its free countermagic, and better equipped at beating swarm aggro like Goblins and Merfolk with its more efficient red removal options.

On the other hand, the black disruption package of Junk seems much better equipped for dealing with pure control like Miracles, slower hand dependant combo like Show and Tell, and favorable in the "tempo mirror" (Junk vs RUG).

For reference, here's a decklist for those unaware of what a Junk deck looks like:

B/g/w Deadguy Rock

Lands (23)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland

Creaturues (10)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tombstalker

Spells (27)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Vindicate

This is just a rough list I threw together. Sinkhole seems like it would be good against Show and Tell and Miracles, situationally bad against RUG Delver*, and decent to good everywhere else. I'm not defending whether the card does or does not belong, just justifying why I put it into this list. With the format slowly becoming slower over the years (playing more and more spells outside of the 1cc-2cc range), it seems like it's starting to become a well-positioned card again. However, the Sinkholes in this list could be something else instead.

*By situationally bad, I mean bad most of the times, except when you hit the opponent with discard first to prevent losing alot of tempo to something like Daze, and are capable of either manascrewing their 18 land manabase, or colorscrewing their 14 colorsource manabase.

Have I been away from Magic too long to understand the game anymore, or am I thinking in the right direction and people just haven't adapted yet?

Discuss.

EDIT: For those that disagree with Sinkhole (understandable), those slots could become 1-2 Tombstalker, 1-2 Terravore, a Forest, the 4th Thoughtseize, a couple more 1cc spot removal spells, some Dark Rituals, or whatever.

[(nameless one)]

Isn't that what Esper Stoneblade variants are doing, beating on Show and Tell decks and Miracle decks?

Also, someone made a point on how Chalice at one needs to see more play. It shuts down Brainstorm which seems to be what's holding together the decks you mentioned.

Also, you're missing Pernicious Deed in that list.

[damionblackgear]

This was parts of my response from The Rock Thread.

Hanni, the answer is two fold, simple, and unwanted. Not only are we not blue, but the thread is full of random archetypes mixed together.

There's a huge push for blue decks by both Pro and popular Joe players. There's also a heavy criticism for any non-blue player as having had made a sub-par choice. So, when new players start, they're typically handed blue decks now and told to never do anything else because Brainstorm is the strongest card in legacy*. Filters allow for mistakes as you have a better chance to recover from a mistake. So, in essence, the "traditional" blue decks are playing with a crutch. In this case, a lot of players are unwilling to get rid of the assistance and stand on their own.

The different archetypes become apparent as you search even the last 10 pages of this thread. Different packages, which in other decks warrant different threads (current AnT and TES are the best example as the real difference lies in the manabase at this point) are something that's overlooked here and advised on as a group. The confusion leads people to stray away as they get multiple viewpoints telling them to go many different routes. Example, I say play the Mox and 23 lands and Matt says play 24 and no Mox. While that may be small, when you start getting into packages - like Stoneforge, Green Sun, Discard, Planeswalkers and Removal - many new players become afraid to try out the different archetypes inside this one thread.

[Hanni]

Isn't that what Esper Stoneblade variants are doing, beating on Show and Tell decks and Miracle decks?

Also, someone made a point on how Chalice at one needs to see more play. It shuts down Brainstorm which seems to be what's holding together the decks you mentioned.

Also, you're missing Pernicious Deed in that list.

I suppose so, although most of the Esperblade lists I've seen are a little slow. They beat Show and Tell just as effectively through the discard/countermagic + flashback discard package, but the clock is still worse than something like Team America or Junk.

And I'm not sure that Esperblade is "destroying" Miracles as opposed to having an even to favorable matchup, but maybe I'm wrong. A few discard spells is nice if drawn early, but a topdecked and resolved Counterbalance is still going to give Esperblade fits, and Detention Sphere now deals with a swarm of 1/1 flying tokens. EE might destroy Counterbalance, but it takes SFM/Snapcaster/Jitte along with it. Even then, that still doesn't stop Miracles from sweeping the board. Aside from the Jace vs Jace battle, I don't see how Esperblade has any additional tools available to it, to deal with a swarm of 4/4 flying tokens, than Miracles has to deal with a swarm of 1/1 flying tokens. But none of this directly answers my original question.

The original question was not why Junk isn't seeing play while Esperblade is.

The original question is why RUG Delver isn't sharing some of it's played %'s (of the field) with Junk. Both of them fill the "tempo aggro/control" niche, but to me, Junk seems better suited for the current metagame.

Also, you're missing Pernicious Deed in that list.

Pernicious Deed is a slow control spell. Junk is a relatively fast aggro/control deck. Deed may or may not be a strong sideboard option, but it's not a maindeck card. I didn't list a sideboard, but that may have been the wrong call on my part. Possible sideboard options that Junk has against the current metagame vs what RUG has is pretty important. For now, I'm going to leave that area open for discussion.

[death]

Any tri-color deck that doesn't run Stifle is never favored against any real Tempo deck. I would prefer playing a two-colored deck with more basics any time of day.

[Hanni]

Any tri-color deck that doesn't run Stifle is never favored against any real Tempo deck. I would prefer playing a two-colored deck with more basics any time of day.

Even with 23 lands (or more), a ton of discard to get rid of all that reactive countermagic (including Stifle), bigger threats (in both the air and on the ground), which all dodge RUG's removal, while only Mongoose dodges Junk's removal?

If RUG gets the nuts and starts first with Stifle/Waste/Delvers and the Junk player durdles and then gets their creature(s) Dazed, sure. If the Junk player hits them with some discard to clear the countermagic, kills the Delver, and drops a 5/5 Knight in front of a 3/3 Mongoose, then no.

In this matchup, RUG has a limited time to disrupt and race before getting outclassed by Junk's stronger midrange aggro and removal. Also important to note is that the proactive black disruption package trumps the reactive blue disruption package in the control war, especially when Junk has the permanent removal to deal with what slips through the cracks while RUG does not (again going back to RUG having ineffective removal, where Junk's hits everything but Mongoose).

Stifle alone doesn't change the structure of this matchup. I'd argue that this deck has a better RUG matchup than Maverick does. The only advantage that Maverick has vs RUG that I can think of (as opposed to Junk vs RUG) are the mana dorks, since they help to negate RUG's Stifle/Waste/taxing counter plan. That plan is susceptible to Lightning Bolt and Forked Bolt though, whereas Inquisition and Thoughtseize nullify everything but Wasteland.

[damionblackgear]

Any tri-color deck that doesn't run Stifle is never favored against any real Tempo deck. I would prefer playing a two-colored deck with more basics any time of day.

Sir, I'm no doctor but, I see you suffer from foot in mouth syndrome.

http://blip.tv/scglive/scgmad-lgc-rn...-ellis-6147519

http://blip.tv/scglive/scgmad-lgc-to...-ellis-6148090

http://blip.tv/scglive/scgmad-lgc-fi...-ellis-6147446

[sdematt]

Don't worry kids, we know what we're talking about.

-Matt

[Koby]

Hanni, I think the deck you posted in the opener needs Brainstorm, because fuck it why not? You're already playing 3 colors.

[Hanni]

Hanni, I think the deck you posted in the opener needs Brainstorm, because fuck it why not? You're already playing 3 colors.

I know you're being sarcastic, and it's pretty comical after reading the 'Miracles running rampant' thread in Format Discussion, which turned into a 'Ban Brainstorm' discussion for a page or two. However...

Your statement (outside of the sarcastic context) is one of the reasons why the metagame continues to be blue dominated. I wish people would realize that more non-blue decks are not only viable, but can be better than their blue equivalents in the right metagames.

Yet, instead of thinking outside of the box (and netdecking the latest and greatest from the SCG Circuit instead), we have 'Ban Brainstorm' discussions every other week.

Can I have an A+ for effort anyway?

[death]

Sir, I'm no doctor but, I see you suffer from foot in mouth syndrome.

http://blip.tv/scglive/scgmad-lgc-rn...-ellis-6147519

http://blip.tv/scglive/scgmad-lgc-to...-ellis-6148090

http://blip.tv/scglive/scgmad-lgc-fi...-ellis-6147446

These videos sum it up then. Is this you? Well that explains it. Why are we still durdling around with our pet decks, please tell us exactly what to sleeve so we can beat the best deck (which is RUG) and become a "Deck To Beat" coz ya know Junk has a loongg way to go, as in not-there-yet.

FWIW, the deck I'm hinting at is Eva Green, in case that didn't strike you as you were too busy with self-indulgence.

I know you're being sarcastic, and it's pretty comical after reading the 'Miracles running rampant' thread in Format Discussion, which turned into a 'Ban Brainstorm' discussion for a page or two. However...

Your statement (outside of the sarcastic context) is one of the reasons why the metagame continues to be blue dominated. I wish people would realize that more non-blue decks are not only viable, but can be better than their blue equivalents in the right metagames.

Yet, instead of thinking outside of the box (and netdecking the latest and greatest from the SCG Circuit instead), we have 'Ban Brainstorm' discussions every other week.

Can I have an A+ for effort anyway?

Netdecking has been part of Magic since thedojo days. Can we stop arguing about how powerful Brainstorm and Force of Will now, cause they've always been and always will be, and stick to the subject: Junk pwns RUG.

[Hanni]

Netdecking has been part of Magic since thedojo days. Can we stop arguing about how powerful Brainstorm and Force of Will now, cause they've always been and always will be, and stick to the subject: Junk pwns RUG.

Those of you actively discussing Legacy on a forum aren't the majority of netdeckers, so when I toss that term around, I'm not referring to everyone. It wasn't a personal insult.

Also, the subject wasn't Junk pwns RUG. The subject was that I think Junk is the better tempo deck right now in the metagame. That's why I created this thread, and that's the discussion I'm trying initiate.

People keep getting stuck on the smaller picture, i.e Junk is bad because Esperblade is better, RUG beats Junk, etc (just citing two examples that were brought up).

I'm still waiting for the discussion to start, regarding the niche of Junk vs RUG in the current metagame.

[Hanni]

Double Post I know, but I'm trying to jumpstart the discussion.

Three of Junks worst matchups are currently missing from the metagame due to other Tier 1 decks: Burn/Sligh, Zoo, and Storm Combo.

Burn/Sligh has problems against Counterbalance, and Show and Tell races Burn (especially with countermagic buying time).

Zoo is outclassed by Maverick, can't race Show and Tell, and can't handle 1cc Wrath of Gods + Counterbalance lock.

Storm Combo is dead in the water right now. It is outclassed by Show and Tell as the formats combo deck, and has very bad matchups against Counterbalance and RUG Delver.

Junk has a good matchup against Miracles, Show and Tell, and RUG Delver. Junk also has a good matchup against Merfolk if it picks up in popularity (due to Miracles and Show and Tell), and Junk can board into Engineered Plague to handle Goblins if it picks up in popularity (due to Miracles).

The only relatively bad (popular) matchup I can see right now is Maverick. This deck can board into EE/Deed, maybe even Virtues Ruin or other removal, to dramatically improve that matchup postboard.

I need to get to bed now. Hopefully when I get off work tomorrow, I'll have several pages of stuffs to read through. ;)

[menace13]

I'm still waiting for the discussion to start, regarding the niche of Junk vs RUG in the current metagame.

Why play a deck without Brainstorm and FoW?

No seriously, the best cards in eternal are always blue. Playing a deck with 3 colors and none of them blue is a terrible thing to do to someone. Someone said Bstorm is crutch(seen the same weak shit said about FoW on these boards too), Best players play the best decks and the best decks play the best cards.

Why would anyone want to play a deck without blue when you can play Brainstorm, Ponder, Daze, FoW, Delver.....

[Phoenix Ignition]

Why would anyone want to play a deck without blue when you can play Brainstorm, Ponder, Daze, FoW, Delver.....

Oh, I dunno, maybe to win the SCG open? Blue is a great color, but not necessary to win.

[sdematt]

The Maverick game postboard isn't bad at all. You're usually running 2-3 Deeds, EE, and Virtue's Ruin in the board. It's fine.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

That is me (... and my ego loves that you recognized me by username). Don't worry though, we'll get there when more than 10 people pick up the deck

To get back on subject. There's a big downplay to people playing discard over counters so, more people are inclined to play counters vs discard. That's probably a good starting point for figuring it out. Counters are also a lot easier to play than discard as they're entirely reactive (you get to know what you're getting when you pull the trigger) and discard is proactive (you probably get to take something, but you don't know until you pull the trigger).

Remember, you are wondering why people aren't playing a deck that's extremely touchy with lines of play, has no agreed upon way to be designed, forces the pilot(s) to be well versed in the overall legacy meta, and be able to adapt in order or they'll be punished.

There is an "agreement" between the two. The "current things" are BU Death's Shadow deck and BUG Delver (Black tempo thresh) which have access to both counters and discard as a way to fight the different things in the meta.

[sdematt]

Part of the problem is this:

To get back on subject. There's a big downplay to people playing discard over counters so, more people are inclined to play counters vs discard.

Topdecks beat discard, but we have superior board control, so it should be good.

That's probably a good starting point for figuring it out. Counters are also a lot easier to play than discard as they're entirely reactive (you get to know what you're getting when you pull the trigger) and discard is proactive (you probably get to take something, but you don't know until you pull the trigger).

It's much easier to just counter something good than to pinpoint something for discard and understand the fundamentals of the deck you're playing against, and what answers you have or don't have and when you will have those answers. That takes a ton more skill in some ways that just Force of Willing a card that's good against you. This isn't to say choosing what to counter is a mindless job on assembly line, they're just different intricacies that I think more people are comfortable with in one way (blue) than the other (discard).

-Matt

[menace13]

Oh, I dunno, maybe to win the SCG open? Blue is a great color, but not necessary to win.

Yeah, I guess, but, I mean, going by past winners blue decks out number the others. Same for GPs.

Three out of the top 4 decks in the format now are blue,a nd before Miracles it was 2 out of 3. And before that it was all blue. The only time recently in the past 3 years that it wasn't blue was during Survival.

I'm not saying Junk is bad, but blue is just so much more powerful and the ease of use(Diamond and Matt Stated above^) is just one of those reasons.

[Tammit67]

Storm Combo is dead in the water right now. It is outclassed by Show and Tell as the formats combo deck, and has very bad matchups against Counterbalance and RUG Delver.

CB is admittedly a bad matchup, but RUG isn't as bad as you would imagine for storm, usually around 55-45%.

The only problem I have with Rock is the problem I have with a lot of the non-blue decks: Once your opponent deals with your opening hand plus the 2-3 relevant impactful cards you drew over the first handful of turns, how can you find threats faster than the blue deck can find answers with all its filtering effects?

This is why I feel we haven't consistently seen Junk/Rock/Eva green at the tables beyond the lack of people playing the deck. In order to go the disruptive 'tempo' strategy, you potentially make your topdecks terrible. RUG at least can brainstorm them away or pitch them to Force. Or hell, maybe that turn 6 daze will be useful anyway, much more so than similarly late thoughtseize.

So how to make it work? Instead of running spells that have these effects, try what maverick has done and run creatures that have utility and you are rarely disappointed to have drawn later on in the game. Punish them for their filtering with your consistency, as maverick does now and Zoo/merfolk did before it.