The Current Metagame: Junk vs Canadian Threshold

[Rico Suave]

It is very easy to explain what tempo is. You set a clock for X turns, then stop the opponent from doing anything that would mess with your clock for those X turns.

When people talk about a tempo deck, it is often shorthand for what you are describing. It is an overload of the opponent's defenses before they can be established.

Tempo however is simply time. It is a lot more broad than what you are describing, and what you are describing is a specific strategy that utilizes tempo as its primary focus point. Keep in mind that every strategy makes use of tempo in one shape or another.

What The Rock does is not tempo. It's a strategy focused on a concept called momentum. Momentum comes from the formula mass * speed, which in magic terms equals to threats * clock. Here are the differences with other decks:
1. A deck based on tempo (fixed clock, early threats that don't grow) has a fixed amount of momentum that varies little as the game progresses;
2. A deck based on speed (a.k.a. following the blitzkrieg strategy) focus on an initial (temporal and huge) boost of momentum, then tries to win before it runs out of it.
3. A deck based on momentum starts with low momentum and generally includes cards to slow the opponent's momentum to a halt (discard, removal, etc.), then slowly but steady builds up momentum until it becomes unstoppable (for example, mana-ramp decks, death & taxes, etc).

Linear decks follow a simple strategy known as "human wave", which is pretty bad except under some circumstances, for example when they focus all strenght on a single well known "weak point" that the opponent didn't protect well (for example, dredge, burn, or turbo-fog).

There is not a single "control strategy", but a bunch of different strategies. There are decks following the exhaustion strategy, then there are decks following strategies known as trench warfare, the spanish "tercio", attrition, inertia, etc. I have the full list somewhere.

In sum, any deck ever built in magic has an equivalent to a firmly established war strategy. The ways to play the decks can also be categorized under already established war tactics. Magic players have never tried to apply real world strategy to the game, and as such they're stuck with flawed definitions with lots of overlap such as combo, aggro, control, or card advantage, that are irrelevant and useless for the most part, and don't provide enough information about how a deck should be played, what tries to do, and what strategies are good against them.

Yes this is very applicable, and very insightful.

Your origin story's a little off so... Correction.

I don't see how anything you said disagrees with what I said. Decks do evolve over time, and names ebb and flow with those decks. The name is just a quick way to describe a strategy and as long as the basic strategy is communicated through a name then that is all that's necessary.

PT Junk, btw, evolved from Survival of the Fittest decks.

[Zirath]

I'm not really sure what the point of this distinction is. For starters, blue in Modern has gotten pretty hollowed out by bannings; even setting that aside, the power level of the counters in the format is significantly lower. Okay, I'll concede that Legacy's counters being very cheap or free is important, and I'll grant that grant that context matters, but it still doesn't change things like, "If you draw a discard spell late game it will be worse than drawing a counterspell because the opponent's hand is likely to be fairly empty."

If Brainstorm were black, there would still be a strong draw into counters for those reasons. The fact that it's blue simply means there is no contest.

...

Hanni was talking specifically about whether a tempo build of Junk could take some of RUG's metagame share, which is why I brought up Team America. Honestly, the concept of Junk is vaguely defined enough that people can argue it any way they want, which to me sounds like a symptom of a deeper problem.

Thank you. I think that was the point I was trying to make. And you are correct, counter spells scale better than discard with game length. I should have stated that since I realize I made it seem like I believed otherwise.

I did not understand your point about Team America but I think I do now. The linchpin of this is really black in many ways. Black is the weakest color in Legacy most of the time and it partially stems from the same point you made about in blue in modern: it has lost its most powerful cards to bannings but Wizards has not made changes to recoup the loss. Black is more or less defined (in recent sets) by discard spells, tutors, creature removal, card draw at the cost of life and 1 mana 2/Xs with a draw back. If we think about Legacy, discard spells are the only thing black has over the other colors (and even in that field Vendilion Clique kinda trumps a lot of black's discard plan because of the large flying body combined with flash). All of blacks tutors are horrible right now since all the powerful ones are banned. Dark Confidant and Phyrexian Arena are the only draw engines playable and they are extremely slow and are usually outclasses by Blue's cantrips or the engine generate from Life from the Loam. Even with all the 1 mana 2/2s, Gravecrawler is the only one that shines out because of the engine it provides through recursion. Cards like Kird Ape and Loam Lion are no longer good enough when compared to Goblin Guide and Delver of Secrets so what chance does Sarcomancy or Carnophage have.

I guess all of what I have said is more or less obvious but I like to be a little analytical.

@DrJones: That was quite interesting to read. I enjoyed the definitions a lot. However, as far as tempo is defined, it literally means a turn. Gaining and losing tempo has to do with how each player's board is developed. This is the definition from chess. Every play made causes a gain or loss of tempo. You make a larger tempo gains when you cause your opponent to lose board position without compromising your own. Delver + Daze means that you can prevent your opponent from developing without compromising your aggressive plan. As Rico Suave said, you are describing a Tempo deck. A number of decks can make tempo plays without being a tempo deck. If I am playing NLT and I Ice a Knight of the Reliquary so I can attack on the ground with Tarmogoyfs to pressure my opponent's life/creatures, that can produce an enormous tempo swing because I am forcing my opponent to trade his board position for the Fire/Ice. NLT is a control deck primarily but this is a tempo producing play nonetheless.

Again, maybe this is obvious and I am just rambling.

[catmint]

It would take a very long essay to explain what tempo is, and frankly I don't feel like typing it up because you can google up several different books on the subject and I'll save hours of time. The real question is why you feel like talking about this criminally over-used term as if you are a basis of authority, when it's quite clear you should be quiet and learning instead of talking.

Nailed it... hehe.
Well Hanni is quiet now... not sure if he is learning or still believing everyone else is wrong.

[damionblackgear]

I don't see how anything you said disagrees with what I said. Decks do evolve over time, and names ebb and flow with those decks. The name is just a quick way to describe a strategy and as long as the basic strategy is communicated through a name then that is all that's necessary.

PT Junk, btw, evolved from Survival of the Fittest decks.

The off point was that it started out as a GW base deck. The original lists were running green and white creates alongside black disruption. The color counts were became more even over about a 3 month period of it being tested but it started out closer to BG than GW.

The name came from the idea that all of the creatures were "junk". People were dying to Spectral Lynx and River Boa which had been chosen because they could survive all but two cards at the time (Swords and WoG) which being able to swing past almost every deck at the time. The terrible create mark held when porting to legacy almost past the introduction of Goyf, although they had opted to incorporate him over skip past him. Spectral Linx being the link to the old deck.

Less so a more aggressive version of Rock (which had been popularized in 2000 by Sol Maka (Titled The Rock and his Millions) was the origin. Not Survival decks. Survival used a toolbox of creatures where Junk used specific answers via their creatures. Majority of the creature base was actually used in popular Survival at the time (I'd get you proof but the Vengevine version keeps popping up) because they were considered "Junk" and they didn't want to have to tutor for "junk".

As time when on, people began to look at both decks as being the same thing. Rock having limited/lost the Deranged Hermit and Phyrexian Plaguelord for cards like Spirit Monger and Troll Acetic. where the Simian Grunts and Call of the heard eventually turned into Bob, Goyf, and Tidehollow Sculler.

Both decks began to evolve together and indeed attempted using many different cards, i.e Survival. Neither side could really use the other's tools as well. I.e. Recurring Nightmare is a Rock card, where Tidehollow Sculler turned into a popular maindecked Junk card.

The ideology behind each (speed vs control) was maintained between all the different builds. Interestingly enough, it was the Rock, which was arguably more popular because of Spirit Monger (Penis Monger to some) was more popular in The Rock, although both actually played it for a while. So, the Junk title was lost and both decks became known as Rock. From there, it was easy to associate all BG(w) decks as being, The Rock. So, we lost names such as Truffle Shuffle, Deadguy Rock, and others.

Recently, some decks have been pulling out. Nic Fit is the more popular of these but Trisomy 21 (closest to a BG/w Pox Rock) managed to sneak out as well by relying on cards not typically associated with The Rock.

The current builds of The Rock are actually neither of the starting two.

Junk is dismayed because the starting reason behind the creatures was their natural durability, evasion, and cost. Knight lacks for evasion or durability (from anything except lightning bolt) and Bob lacks any form of protection or evasion at all. The cards lead to a more grounded game than a smooth flow of unsuspected threats that are hard to deal with.

Rock decks focused on getting to the late game early and crushing with a large, hard to deal with creature. Using the tools available, Rock attempted to take control of board, and hand as graveyards were a thing. Just not as big a deal as currently (Phantom Nishoba and Akroma, Angel of Wrath being some of the better targets throughout reanimators earlier years, pre-Ravnica1).

Current builds are actually built towards consistency and speed. Most lists lacking even the "preached" about Pernicious Deed, instead opting for a different approach of just stop it from happening. By using creatures as the basis for gaining and advantage (Junk) the current lists allow for the spells to play the control aspect (Rock). So, the current iteration of (commonly referred to as) The Rock/Junk, is actually a different deck that's merged both of them.

There is the rest of the history lesson (although, most doesn't belong in this thread).

[Kich867]

It may not belong but that was interesting as hell to read.

[Richard Cheese]

So is it a rule that every GBx deck has to have a terrible name?

[Rico Suave]

The off point was that it started out as a GW base deck. The original lists were running green and white creates alongside black disruption. The color counts were became more even over about a 3 month period of it being tested but it started out closer to BG than GW.

The name came from the idea that all of the creatures were "junk". People were dying to Spectral Lynx and River Boa which had been chosen because they could survive all but two cards at the time (Swords and WoG) which being able to swing past almost every deck at the time. The terrible create mark held when porting to legacy almost past the introduction of Goyf, although they had opted to incorporate him over skip past him. Spectral Linx being the link to the old deck.

Well, then I suppose now would be a good time to share some history.

The PT Junk you referred to in the wizards article was in Extended, circa 2002. That was not the beginning of PT Junk. PT Junk was originally created as a reaction to the 2000 standard season as a way to beat Fires, which was tearing up standard at the time. That PT Junk deck was strictly G/W. Strictly. And it also had a very, very good match against Fires.

Your analysis of the creatures is also off. Swords to Plowshares didn't exist in this format, for starters, and I won't go into details about the other ins and outs.

PT Junk was later ported to Extended, where it had some success (though not much) but it needed black because 2002 Extended was full of decks like Turboland, Trix, Psychatog, and other dangerous decks which could circumvent board removal and needed to be fought with discard. This is the deck you were referencing.

Both Junk and Rock have both evolved from those days, of course. It is over a decade later so this would be expected. It's also possible to say that neither one really exists in its true form anymore, and the only reason we continue to use those names is simply because people "know" what you are talking about when you say them and coming up with a new, accurate name that sticks is nearly impossible.

As for the rest of your post, I'm going to leave it alone.

[damionblackgear]

Well, then I suppose now would be a good time to share some history.

The PT Junk you referred to in the wizards article was in Extended, circa 2002. That was not the beginning of PT Junk. PT Junk was originally created as a reaction to the 2000 standard season as a way to beat Fires, which was tearing up standard at the time. That PT Junk deck was strictly G/W. Strictly. And it also had a very, very good match against Fires.

Your analysis of the creatures is also off. Swords to Plowshares didn't exist in this format, for starters, and I won't go into details about the other ins and outs.

PT Junk was later ported to Extended, where it had some success (though not much) but it needed black because 2002 Extended was full of decks like Turboland, Trix, Psychatog, and other dangerous decks which could circumvent board removal and needed to be fought with discard. This is the deck you were referencing.

Both Junk and Rock have both evolved from those days, of course. It is over a decade later so this would be expected. It's also possible to say that neither one really exists in its true form anymore, and the only reason we continue to use those names is simply because people "know" what you are talking about when you say them and coming up with a new, accurate name that sticks is nearly impossible.

As for the rest of your post, I'm going to leave it alone.

As I said, that link was because the link from my initial quote no longer worked (404: page not found to be specific). The list on it was from 2000-2001 (same era as Flores btw)

The PT Junk you're referencing the Mike Flores PT Junk deck (Voice of All, Rebels, and the rest) That's about as close as the two decks labeled Dark Horizons I listed earlier (Since I'm now pretty sure you missed/skipped it, Here and Here). This isn't, and wasn't, a common occurance but does happen. I could understand your misunderstanding.

The two decks share about as much as Maverick and real Rock. In fact, the only really shared aspect is, the name.

So, if you didn't notice or just wanted to do some quick look-up, that's not a port to switch from that to something like this to this (I'm expecting you to be able to search for either junk or Bryan Hubble). The later is a blatant mod of a similar deck, not a tooling to a different archetype (Aggro to mid-range).

Points for trying though.

[sdematt]

More interesting thoughts about Junk can be found in the Rock Primer, the first post in the Rock Thread. Hint: I wrote it :)

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

I love everyone that has posted in this thread. Especially the rock guys and their shameless self plugs:)

[Rico Suave]

As I said, that link was because the link from my initial quote no longer worked (404: page not found to be specific). The list on it was from 2000-2001 (same era as Flores btw)

The PT Junk you're referencing the Mike Flores PT Junk deck (Voice of All, Rebels, and the rest) That's about as close as the two decks labeled Dark Horizons I listed earlier (Since I'm now pretty sure you missed/skipped it, Here and Here). This isn't, and wasn't, a common occurance but does happen. I could understand your misunderstanding.

The two decks share about as much as Maverick and real Rock. In fact, the only really shared aspect is, the name.

So, if you didn't notice or just wanted to do some quick look-up, that's not a port to switch from that to something like this to this (I'm expecting you to be able to search for either junk or Bryan Hubble). The later is a blatant mod of a similar deck, not a tooling to a different archetype (Aggro to mid-range).

Points for trying though.

The point is if you're going to go back in time and reference the origin of a deck, it would be best to clarify where its true origin is. PT Junk has its roots, and even the name was used, before the point in time you were claiming it came from. The original deck did not have black - it was G/W. The overall archetype from whence PT Junk spawned was also G/W, and it was around for many years before PT Junk was even named.

Now it's true that variations have come up since then, and we've seen the name Junk used in everything from Extended to Vintage since that time. Over a long period of time decks will change drastically, but it doesn't change too quickly to warrant a name change. A name is just a quick way to describe a deck anyway. In Vintage our "control" decks are often comboing out on turn 3-4.

Regardless it's quite clear that the term "Junk" has very little resemblance to any sort of tempo based strategy, which is why I was originally posting in this thread.

[damionblackgear]

The point is if you're going to go back in time and reference the origin of a deck, it would be best to clarify where its true origin is. PT Junk has its roots, and even the name was used, before the point in time you were claiming it came from. The original deck did not have black - it was G/W. The overall archetype from whence PT Junk spawned was also G/W, and it was around for many years before PT Junk was even named.

Now it's true that variations have come up since then, and we've seen the name Junk used in everything from Extended to Vintage since that time. Over a long period of time decks will change drastically, but it doesn't change too quickly to warrant a name change. A name is just a quick way to describe a deck anyway. In Vintage our "control" decks are often comboing out on turn 3-4.

Regardless it's quite clear that the term "Junk" has very little resemblance to any sort of tempo based strategy, which is why I was originally posting in this thread.

I think you missed the overall point of my last post and haven't really opened up anything new to talk about. Basically my past couple of posts have already dealt "most" (I will actually address this) the topic of debate.

As for name changes, they're finicky things. Most people don't like ot have a deck's name changed (Hence the similarities between the different BGW decks and their common name). On occasion, there are simple changes that influence a name change. The best example would be Canadian Tempo Thresh and Rug Delver (+4 Delver, -x Lavamancer -y cantrip/mongoose | x+y=4). They literally added one card and overnight, it became a new deck.

Another Example would be Nic Fit. While an evolution of this (Not saying this is the first ever, just using it as a recorded example), because it disappeared for so long, it was allowed a new name. The concept isn't new nor was it unknown when it "came out" but it didn't have enough people aware of it.

More drastic changes occur all the time but do not warrant name changes. Say for the different choices between the Rock decks (Aggressive levels varying). It's not like we call every UGW deck Bant (New Horizons exists!). So, why do we do the same thing for the BGW decks?

It's not really important, and I honestly don't want to deal with naming conventions anymore, SCG killed any chance of it Miracle Whip, 34th Street (reference), Count Chocula, and Weird Science are all lost deck names. It's just an observation.

I'm pretty much done with it at this point. If you present something new/interesting, please feel free to pm me (I really do respond to them). Otherwise, don't expect more of a response (Everyone can start the "Oh he quit" flames now).

[Mirrislegend]

I thought we could all just agree that Junk is a GBW deck with high quality threats, good removal, and good discard. The specifics of it vary, but that's what the original conversation was about: tempo builds vs Stoneforge builds vs Pernicious Deed builds, etc.

Personally, I believe the point Hanni was trying to make in the opening post was this: Deadguy Ale was a great concept, but in the modern day Black and White alone do not provide the necessary threats. By adding in Green, you get the beats of Goyf and KotR, goodies like Abrupt Decay, and great SB/silver bullet options. At least, that's how I see his concept.

[sdematt]

I would agree that Junk could be very solid right now, but the biggest discussion is based around whether or not to play tempo builds vs Stoneforge builds vs Pernicious Deed builds, etc., just like Mirri said.

-Matt

[death]

The bigger question is if you want to play tempo why not play say, Thresh or Team America?
If you want GWx bash with Knights and have a positive combo matchup why not play Maverick?
Why risk getting blown out by Stifle + Wasteland, when you can play Deadguy Ale or Eva Green?

[Mirrislegend]

The bigger question is if you want to play tempo why not play say, Thresh or Team America?
If you want GWx bash with Knights and have a positive combo matchup why not play Maverick?
Why risk getting blown out by Stifle + Wasteland, when you can play Deadguy Ale or Eva Green?

This is a question that cuts right to the heart of things. Thank you for asking good questions and slicing through the rhetoric!

Here's my personal opinion:
I play Junk over Thresh, because I don't like the "win by the skin of my teeth or don't win at all" mentality. I play it over Team America because TA is fragile (if I remember correctly). I play Junk over Maverick because Junk has card advantage and Maverick does not (This is why Junk beats Mav and can be good against control even without Mav's maindeck hate). Stifle + Wasteland is a significant vulnerability, counteracted wonderfully by Mox Diamond. Junk has more power than Deadguy and more utility and resilience than Eva Green.

[Rico Suave]

I think you missed the overall point of my last post and haven't really opened up anything new to talk about. Basically my past couple of posts have already dealt "most" (I will actually address this) the topic of debate.

As for name changes, they're finicky things. Most people don't like ot have a deck's name changed (Hence the similarities between the different BGW decks and their common name). On occasion, there are simple changes that influence a name change. The best example would be Canadian Tempo Thresh and Rug Delver (+4 Delver, -x Lavamancer -y cantrip/mongoose | x+y=4). They literally added one card and overnight, it became a new deck.

Another Example would be Nic Fit. While an evolution of this (Not saying this is the first ever, just using it as a recorded example), because it disappeared for so long, it was allowed a new name. The concept isn't new nor was it unknown when it "came out" but it didn't have enough people aware of it.

More drastic changes occur all the time but do not warrant name changes. Say for the different choices between the Rock decks (Aggressive levels varying). It's not like we call every UGW deck Bant (New Horizons exists!). So, why do we do the same thing for the BGW decks?

It's not really important, and I honestly don't want to deal with naming conventions anymore, SCG killed any chance of it Miracle Whip, 34th Street (reference), Count Chocula, and Weird Science are all lost deck names. It's just an observation.

I'm pretty much done with it at this point. If you present something new/interesting, please feel free to pm me (I really do respond to them). Otherwise, don't expect more of a response (Everyone can start the "Oh he quit" flames now).

No worries. We are basically in agreement anyway.

I would agree that Junk could be very solid right now, but the biggest discussion is based around whether or not to play tempo builds vs Stoneforge builds vs Pernicious Deed builds, etc., just like Mirri said.

-Matt

This is thing...what exactly is a "tempo build" of Junk? It defies the nature of the archetype as well as the nature of a "tempo" deck as we commonly know it.

Tempo decks are largely designed to win before the opponent's defenses are fully established. This is nearly impossible, to my knowledge, with basically any B/G/W incarnation.

[ReinVos]

Why don't we compare Junk to Bant? Instead of comparing Junk to RUG? I think it's best to keep ''tempo'' out of this discussion because it has little to do with Junk.

I think it would be an interesting discussion. Ok, so you choose to play with Knight, Goyf and Plowshares. Which color do you use to complete the deck? Black for more powerful removal and discard? Or blue for Brainstorm, counters and a Jace or two?

You have to ask yourself the same questions when building the deck. Do I want SFM, GSZ, or do I want neither?

Bant and Junk are the most alike. This is probably the reason why GWB was called Dark Horizons when New Horizons (Bant) was doing well.

[Kich867]

This is thing...what exactly is a "tempo build" of Junk? It defies the nature of the archetype as well as the nature of a "tempo" deck as we commonly know it.

Tempo decks are largely designed to win before the opponent's defenses are fully established. This is nearly impossible, to my knowledge, with basically any B/G/W incarnation.

I have to pretty much agree with this. The defining factor, in my opinion, of RUG Tempo is that it can almost fully operate on one land. This means aggressively waste-landing is fine, it runs super cheap / free counterspells to take advantage of the fact that it can run off 1-2 lands and you probably need 3 or 4.

If we were to see some sort of Tempo GBW deck, I feel it would have to follow this same general ideology. Run a lot of cheap / free answers to threats, aggressively attack a resource, and sit on an insanely low curve.

Unfortunately, I think the biggest thing holding this strategy back is the lack of ultra-aggressive / hard to deal with cheap threats in these colors. Nimble Mongoose is too hard to properly utilize without blue, and delver resides in blue.

White has Steppe Lynx, and while Steppe Lynx -often- serves as a one mana tarmogoyf if your manabase is setup correctly, there's times that he's not. Green has Goyf, which is superb, but doesn't offer a ton else (Scythe Tiger maybe? Seems bad though) in conjunction with these colors. Black actually has quite a few cheap beaters, but they all seem fairly bad. At best they swing for 2 instead of 3, which is a huge deal.