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Thread: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

  1. #1101
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xod View Post
    Fallen, how did you board against Infect? (mostly, what do you board out)
    Against SnS I can always put an Ashen Rider in, solves all the problems ;-)
    Can you share your list?

    Still having some issues what do board out against DnT. Do we remove the CotV and a Sneak attack? (but my opponents kept the STP in, especially against the Wurm and TKS and if on the play, stopping that vial is crucial)
    Or do we do as hoogland and remove the seething songs, 1 or 2 sneak attacks and the Emrakul? (Sneaks are less interesting with Revokers and such, and Emrakul can get karakased without the moon effect, although Rider/Primus does a job here game 1 and helps against other problems like Batterskull, port, vial, ...) The seething songs I kept in originally, but with a Thalia out it doesn't do that much and we rather have a threat, but with Thalia, waste/port, it can be difficult to get going.
    In the beginning I removed the Chandra's, like against most creature decks. But it acts as an extra removal piece for their creatures and to stabilize the mana (next turn). Although the filter option doesn't let you play lands which I find a problem.
    Against Infect, I'll bring my other 2x Blood Moons in. Sideout the Songs, bring in Abrade's/Fallout. A Blood Moon on the play turn 1 is GG. Chalice is also great!

    I try to leave the Seething Songs in if I'm not playing against blue... Against Dnt on the draw, I'll board out a few Chalices. On the play Moons, Plainswalkers, maybe a creature or two... I used to run Kozilek's Return in the SB as Mom hate, but with 3x Fiery Confluence main, I've opted for Volcanic Fallout as remove against counter heavy stone-blade and delver decks. Teeg's, Containment Priests, Revoker's, Pithing Needles, Thalia's, Batterskull, Bridges - Fiery Confluence deals with it all. It's a Dnt wrath of god, and with their board cleared, you should have enough time to get there.

    Sometimes if you sneak/breach in Emrakul really early in the game, you don't end up destroying that many permanents and you can still end up losing with them stuck at 5. I'm looking at you infect... Another reason for Fiery Confluence in the main is it can get you there with 6 damage to the dome. It's also why I run the 2/3 Emmy/Wurm Split.

    My Current list:

    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    10 Mountain
    1 Sandstone Needle

    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Lotus Petal
    2 Seething Song

    4 Sneak Attack
    4 Through the Breach

    4 Chalice of the Void
    1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
    1 Karn, Scion of Urza

    2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    3 Inferno Titan
    3 Worldspine Wurm
    2 Griselbrand
    2 Thought-Knot Seer

    3 Fiery Confluence
    2 Blood Moon

    Sideboard
    -------------
    2 Abrade
    3 Trinisphere
    2 Blood Moon
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Ashen Rider
    2 Volcanic Fallout
    2 Thought-Knot Seer

  2. #1102

    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire View Post
    Teeg's, Containment Priests, Revoker's, Pithing Needles, Thalia's, Batterskull, Bridges - Fiery Confluence deals with it all.
    Well technically, Fiery can't deal with Teeg

    But I get the point, it's a good card hands down. The problem I have with it, is the mana cost, it's already enough, 2 red, with waste/ports/Thalia, not always ideal. Not to mention they can still Mom it. I wanted to have more Kozileks (instant, better mana cost than Volcanic, colorless) but even then, sometimes DnT can just stop you in their tracks and/or bad draws and you'll be better of with a pyroclasm (also works wonders against Steel Stompy, elves, and such) yes, Fiery does the same, but sometimes you don't get to that manacost before they go off (or blow your mana rocks on them, so you don't have them to go off)

    Anyways, thanks for sharing, I'll try the list some more, maybe changing a Primus to an Titan or a fiery. For now, I keep to the Pyroclasm+Kozilek, just for the manacost, and Moonless. See how it works out Might bring it to a big tournament next week, see how it goes there, always a good test.

  3. #1103
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xod View Post
    Well technically, Fiery can't deal with Teeg

    But I get the point, it's a good card hands down. The problem I have with it, is the mana cost, it's already enough, 2 red, with waste/ports/Thalia, not always ideal. Not to mention they can still Mom it. I wanted to have more Kozileks (instant, better mana cost than Volcanic, colorless) but even then, sometimes DnT can just stop you in their tracks and/or bad draws and you'll be better of with a pyroclasm (also works wonders against Steel Stompy, elves, and such) yes, Fiery does the same, but sometimes you don't get to that manacost before they go off (or blow your mana rocks on them, so you don't have them to go off)

    Anyways, thanks for sharing, I'll try the list some more, maybe changing a Primus to an Titan or a fiery. For now, I keep to the Pyroclasm+Kozilek, just for the manacost, and Moonless. See how it works out Might bring it to a big tournament next week, see how it goes there, always a good test.
    Dnt can be super frustrating with the mana screw. You could also consider leaving Moons in to null the wasteland/port garbage. Titan is soooo good agaisn't Dnt (and Teeg ) if you can get to 6 mana. Good luck at the tournament! It is a great deck to play, rounds will end quick hopefully ;). Mulligan decisions are the most important, sometimes you just need to bait counters with chalices and moons, so the coast is clear for the real beating!

  4. #1104

    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    Yeah, moons are really helping with ports/waste/karakas, but if you read my small article a bit back, it also cripples yourself, so that's why I wanted to try without the moons. I'm actually considering of putting 2 Blood Suns in the side. I know that bloodmoon will be better, but the matches were we REALLY need blood moon, are the matches were BloodSun furfills a similar roll + doesn't cripple your sol lands + replaces itself. Or a Tsabo's web could also be backbreaking but not against decks like land or turbo depths.
    Sure bloodsun doesn't provide the 'free' wins like Moon, but it does cancel out our biggest problems: karakas, maze, glacial chasm, dark depths, ports, wastes, ...

    Played the deck half a year, a year back or so, so I know that the key with this deck are the mulligan decisions, and the timing of landdrops.

  5. #1105
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xod View Post
    Yeah, moons are really helping with ports/waste/karakas, but if you read my small article a bit back, it also cripples yourself, so that's why I wanted to try without the moons. I'm actually considering of putting 2 Blood Suns in the side. I know that bloodmoon will be better, but the matches were we REALLY need blood moon, are the matches were BloodSun furfills a similar roll + doesn't cripple your sol lands + replaces itself. Or a Tsabo's web could also be backbreaking but not against decks like land or turbo depths.
    Sure bloodsun doesn't provide the 'free' wins like Moon, but it does cancel out our biggest problems: karakas, maze, glacial chasm, dark depths, ports, wastes, ...

    Played the deck half a year, a year back or so, so I know that the key with this deck are the mulligan decisions, and the timing of landdrops.
    Loving the deck with 4 Thought-Knot's main & moonless. If you are still on the list I highly suggest it. Going to give blood sun a whirl. Goblin Cratermaker is a house.
    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21052&d=339861&f=LE

  6. #1106

    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire View Post
    Loving the deck with 4 Thought-Knot's main & moonless. If you are still on the list I highly suggest it. Going to give blood sun a whirl. Goblin Cratermaker is a house.
    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21052&d=339861&f=LE
    Why no blood moon main deck

  7. #1107
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    Quote Originally Posted by caprino View Post
    Why no blood moon main deck
    My sense is that with the current meta Bloodmoon isn't as strong as it once was. Don't get me wrong the card can be great (and a few copies probably belong in the sb) however with the rise of back to basics there are basics everywhere and even Eldrazi is making adjustments. With the bloodmoon rules change, it feels bad to let dark depths come in with no counters only to have moon get kgrip'd and lose. With the new burn cards bringing the deck back in popularity, and more goblins becoming more common I don't want 4 moon's main. Plus regardless your opponent is fetching basics immediately out of fear of a moon coming down even if you don't play one in the deck. I also feel drawing multiples really sucks when you need threat cards badly.

    One of the real criticisms of the deck is that the manabase is unstable and that the deck can suffer from bad hands and draws as a non-cantriping A+B combo deck. Adding 4 thought-knots increases the count of castable threats which on their own can win games. If a turn 1 moon doesn't win the game on the spot, you basically need 2-3 turns to be able to reload to be able to cast 4 drops under a moon that has neutered our own sol lands. That is a long time it sit back without pressuring the board in legacy... Plus removing a card from their hand off Thought-knot lets us clear or see if it's clear to breach in a wurm.

    Basically if we have the nut we win. Even without copies of Griselbrand you can still win turn 1. If we don't combo off or encounter discard/counter pressure we've increased the threat density of the deck with 4 copies of one of the best cards in legacy.

    Xod makes a great point:
    Quote Originally Posted by Xod View Post
    Ok, I'm going to try the Chinese list very soon, reason, the 3 new fatty's and TKS main intrigued me (also, hdeck12 tried the TKS suit before and I was also intrigued :-))

    First of all, let's discuss the lack of blood moon. Even Kapn' Cook went down to 1 Blood Moon, because it just doesn't do enough anymore and mostly, it doesn't advance our game plan.

    Let's take the PRO's:
    - Worst case, it gets countered (but that's ok, since it baited a counter)
    - It MIGHT give you a couple of free wins (look how I emphasized the word 'might')
    - It disrupts the opponent's wastelands, karakas, ports.

    The CON's:
    - The opponent can play around it
    - It's a dead card in multiples (or even the first one if it doesn't disrupt anything)
    - It's doesn't advance our gameplan or is an actual treat/clock.
    - And most importantly, it will LOSE us games!

    Yes I said it, it LOSES us more games than it wins us. Why? Very simple, this is already a very mulligan heavy deck. So somethings you just hang on that turn 1 or 2 blood moon to win you that game, or slow the opponent down enough.

    Now figure this, assume it doesn't get countered, it will cost you 3 or 4 cards from your hand to put it on the board turn 1. (or less turn 2) Just to turn our Sol lands to mountains and actually needing 4 more mana drops to go off (5 for TTB or Sneak attack + activate) That means you need to draw in 4 mana sources and still have an enabler and a fatty. (and you just blew some sources on that moon) I don't need to draw you a picture that an opponent who can play around the moon or dropped a turn 1 treat/vial, will probably win the game better than you.

    Now lets look at TKS:

    - It can bait a counter (same like blood moon)
    - It doesn't suck in multiples
    - If it doesn't get countered it WILL checks if the coast is clear and disrupt the opponent/protect our gameplan. Because it will EXILE (it won't return) a counter/discard spell, disruption piece or even a removal piece (if they can still cast it with CotV on 1)
    - It's a 4/4 castable colorless (important against mother of runes) treat that needs to be answered.
    - It improves our matchup against other combo decks.

    Biggest downside of TKS: you need one of your 8 sol lands to cast him.

    Best case scenario, is that you cast it turn 2 or 3 (yes turn 1 is also possible) just before you go off.
    Let's take one of our difficult matchups: DnT. TKS is an already difficult to answer treat that will take a Containment Priest/Thalia/Revoker/Recruiter out of their hand or even an STP that could answer the TKS. Yes, Inferno Titan might be better in this matchup, but TKS supplements the titan here.
    In other matchups it can take a bridge, an GSZ (to Teeg), discard, counters, … but also slow combo decks down.

    Like said before, it's important to have more castable treats. Well, TKS replaces not only titan 3 and 4 (and 5 and 6), it also does more.

  8. #1108

    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    Mono Red Sneak Attack is probably overshadowed by its cousin Dragon Stompy lately. A single goblin from Dragon Stompy can win the game by itself vs Sneak Attack needing to assemble a A+B combo. Also Dragon Stompy can play more lock pieces which is another plus.

    I do think 1-2 Crystal Vein in substitute of Sandstone Needle may be good in version playing TKS.

  9. #1109
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    New 5-drop boar that's Sneak Attack on a stick could be great for this deck.

  10. #1110

    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    Quote Originally Posted by TLK View Post
    New 5-drop boar that's Sneak Attack on a stick could be great for this deck.
    Can you share a link?

  11. #1111
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)


  12. #1112

    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    Quote Originally Posted by TLK View Post
    Yeah, that card is fantastic. Where to slot it in?

    Is it good enough to take up the flex slots + 2 of Through the Breach slots?

    Or is Through the Breach better?

  13. #1113

    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    I think that through the breach is still better, but it's a recurrable enabler. Good against, DnT (except that it's legendary… and without Moons in the main…) Plus, combined with a Sneak or TTB, you can pump out the kill at once.


    I see it more as a must answer threat + enabler 9-12. But what slots would it take? Titan is still 'better' since it has impact by entering the game (through the Boar is still 1 cheaper to manually cast though). I think we need to rethink the deck. Will do some tests in the near future.

  14. #1114
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    I think Breach is better, also Breach with this guy basically means you're double breaching which is sick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  15. #1115
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    The Boar is definitely playable. I'll test when it comes out.

  16. #1116

    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    I think a list like this is the correct path to take with this deck...

    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Ilharg, the Raze-Boar
    4 Sneak Attack
    4 Through the Breach

    3 Worldspine Wurm
    3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    3 Griselbrand
    1 Inferno Titan
    1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
    1 Fiery Confluence
    1 Blood Moon

    9 Mountain
    2 Sandstone Needle
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Seething Song
    4 Simian Spirit Guide

    The 1 ofs are the test slots to determine which of those four are most worth maindecking.
    Last edited by Captain Hammer; 04-27-2019 at 09:16 AM. Reason: Misspelled Boar

  17. #1117

    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    I was thinking something like this:

    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    3 Griselbrand
    2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    2 Worldspine Wurm
    2 Inferno Titan
    4 Thought-knot Seer
    3 Through the Boar ;-)

    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Lotus Petal

    2 Seething Song
    4 Through the Breach

    4 Sneak Attack

    2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

    10 Mountain
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    2 Sandstone Needle


    TKS replacing Bloodmoon, but that argument was already made. Chandra and Titan as removal/extra kill condition.
    I had 3 more fatties instead of the boar. (being 2 Ashen Riders and once Woodfall Primus) might add 1 more fatty and remove a petal or something.

  18. #1118
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    Is there an argument to Hall of the Bandit Lord? Gives Boar, TKS, and Hardcast Inferno Titans haste.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  19. #1119

    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    The deck only plays 8 colorless mana sources. Pairing them with 4TKS seems very inconsistent.

    The main advantage of the boar is to increase consistency. This deck has no cantripping, no tutors and no draws. So finding both sides of the combo can be challenging.

    Playing 12 Sneak Attack effects and 10+ large fatties helps insure that you see both combo pieces almost every game. And 30 mana sources make a turn 1 combo likely.

    Thats why I propose going back up to 4 Seeting Song because its the perfect mana cost for all 12 combo pieces

    Boar doesnt have haste but it doubles as a threat... you can Sneak out a hasty boar and it can bring out an emrakul or wurm that same turn, often on turn 1 dealing enough damage to win.

    Blood Moon can be any other card, TKS, Chandra, Fiery Confluence etc. But I think the 12 sneak and 10 fattie and 4 chalice and 30 mana package has merit.

  20. #1120
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    2 Inferno Titan
    4 Worldspine Wurm
    3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    4 Ilharg, the Raze-Boar
    4 Simian Spirit Guide

    4 Sneak Attack
    4 Through the Breach
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Seething Song
    3 Fiery Confluence

    10 Mountain
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    2 Sandstone Needle

    Sideboard
    3 Sudden Shock
    2 Goblin Cratermaker
    1 Abrade
    2 Defense Grid
    4 Faerie Macabre
    3 Trinisphere

    This is what i'll jam in a few weeks..

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