I can lend some thoughts on BM vs 3sphere. Against fair decks that play 3c duals, we're highly favored anyway. Adding more disruption with Blood Moon tends to be win-more than Trinisphere. However, against the unfair combo decks, Blood Moon may not affect them at all; whereas Trinisphere is flat out the best card to have early. Thus, we're putting the conditional disruption (Blood Moon) in the sideboard when we need it and staying with the better disruption in the main.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
glad to see titans back in the main.
I'm replying to a post from a while ago, but why don't you want 2 Griselbrands in the opener? Or rather, why would you want a different creature in place of it?
There are 3 reasons it would be unfavorable:
1) both are stuck in hand with no way to drop them, but the same would be true for any other expensive/uncastable creature
2) S n T/Reanimator/TinFins opponent already has a Griselbees on the field. Yours gets legend ruled. BUT WAIT. New m14 rules. Not a problem. Bi-lander: There can only be two.
3) 1 Griselbrand is already on the battlefield so the second would get "legend ruled" and is a dead card. BUT WAIT. You have a Griselbrand on the battlefield. Where is the problem? Oh, sadface, I guess I have to draw 14 cards instead of cheating out a 2nd creature. No chance there will be another creature in those 14 cards, not at all.
So basically I don't see why an extra Griselbrand is a bad thing. If you're ever in a position where you have one on the board already that is preventing you from playing a 2nd, you should already be winning. If you have an extra R open and want a second creature to swing with, just draw 7 and find one.
Last edited by FTW; 07-30-2013 at 03:08 PM.
Ye, I understand.Originally Posted by Koby
But why not both in this case?
Maybe side out 2 faithless looting for 2 BM main?
I've been playing the faithless looting as well. In my experience it's not really that good. Dunno, I might need more testing...
3nisphere is indeed a strong card, I know that very well from my MUD days. It's also an aswer to show and tell that cannot be stiffled.
However I think it would play better with chalice than with blood moon, since chalice can come down a turn earlier which is relevant against combo. Moreover is an answer to Sword to plowshares (no StP for my wurm? Too bad...) and discard.
It seems that no matter how long I try I cannot run away from my love for prison decks... ;)
As for the disruption package, we've tested 4 Blood Moon, then 3 Trinisphere, and 2 Moon 2 Sphere. I'm not confident we've found the right mix yet. I'm going mostly by intuition here, since Stompy decks in general are hard to grok/mulligan. I like the suggestion for Trinisphere and Chalice. I may have to test it out.
Faithless Looting is lousy. It can be cut. Are there other ways to filter/loot after the first 4 Tops? Would playing disruption instead just be better? Testing will tell.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
I don't think of any good card in red for manipulating the deck. Moreover with the inclusion of chalice Sensei's divining top may become an issue and lead to akward situations where you play the top before the chalice and then lose because of that. Top also would become a dead top deck which is quite the opposite from the actual situation.
If a more disruptive path is chosen two paths come to my mind
- play more threats: manipulation is cut entirely from the deck in favor of extra disruption and the strenght and density of our threats makes up for the loss of manipulation
- play other types of manipulation: first two cards I can think of are scroll rack and crystal ball which are, in my opinion, quite underrated and suffer from the comparison with top. I push myself to say that in a deck which search for a card to close the game (SA in play and in need of a fatty) they can be better than top.
Man, I wish I could have more time to test :/
Last edited by kingtk3; 08-18-2013 at 10:43 AM.
Haha, not a liar, just a hypocrite. I do hate Show and Tell, and that's probably the last (and first!) Open I'll ever play it.
Congrats on top64! Good meeting you!
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
@ Hessenbob: Cut a card, play the best 60 to increase your odds of getting what you want. As for the manabase... I like 2 cities because it's never a turn 1 play in the dark. And even when you know what they're on, it still doesn't come out until your last land drop. I usually don't play it until I can win, even if it means missing a land drop. Playing a city and getting another necessary land wasted gets you way behind. Sandstone needle is pretty necessary. It gives you the turn 2 sneak attack or the turn 3 titan line. I've played 3, and was unhappy. Honestly my ideal 7 card hand contains 2 of these. They always get wasted, but if they don't, you end up way ahead. I've lost plenty of games because I took too much damage off tomb. I think 3 tombs is more acceptable than three needles. However, if you end up on the chalice or defense grid plan, then the tombs are probably better than the needles. I like 5 fetches with tops, I only run the 4 mountains. If I dropped a sandstone, I'd add a mountain. Running out of red mana is no good for this deck.
@Kingtk/Kid: My thoughts on the main deck 3spheres were summed up nicely by Koby. It wasn't a specific meta call. I had no clue what I was going to be facing. The rumors were that there would be a lot of lands and shardless, both of which moon is way better against. We generally win game 1 against the 3 color aggro decks. The moons are less necessary and in the board to swap out as a catch-all when sphere is no good. Moon is no hard lock against the storm decks with all their artifact mana, while 3 sphere generally is game 1. I can't afford to burn resources (like a guide or turn 1 city of traitors) to play a turn 1 moon unless I KNOW it's going to be game breaking.
@FTW: I don't want two griselbrands, ever. 1. True, cards in hand are cards in hand, doesn't matter what their text is. 2. Tin Fins doesn't count because it's part of their infinite combo. As for S&T and Reanimator, they are entirely different monsters. Their plan is to get griselbrand in play and keep him there. They have the ability to slowly wear down the opponent by bashing with him and drawing 7 cards a turn thanks to lifelink. They also have the ability draw into counterspells in order to protect him. Our game plan is to resolve 1 sneak effect in order to win the game. Emrakul does it by clearing their full board. Wurm does it by leaving pieces of himself. All griselbrand does is gives us a reload and chance to try again. Most of the time when you resolve a sneak effect and put grisel into play, you instantly draw 14 cards (before attacking) and try to finish the game on the spot. If they couldn't stop your first effect, they won't stop your second. You pass the turn and no matter how many cards you've drawn they can either untap and storm you out (wurm leaves you open to this as well), or draw that one more card that lets them stop you. Having two griselbrands doesn't help you with this plan. 3. Exactly, when we draw 14 cards, a different creature is precisely what we want, not 3 more griselbrands. OVERALL I guess it boils down to the fact the other creatures win the game. Griselbrand can only get you to the creatures that win you the game, not actually impact the board himself.
@Koby/King:Figuring out the disruption package has been the tough part of this deck. I've tried all combinations of moon/sphere. Nothing has felt perfect yet, but I also don't have the patience to jam games and crunch statistics. Top is SWEET. But I want chalices back. I have yet to let a wurm get STPed but the more we all crush with worldspine, the less people will tap out their plains. If chalice does come back in, I'd feel comfortable playing wurmcoil which could take the pyromancy spot as a castable threat that can also be sneaked with some value. If crystal ball cost 2 I'd try that. At3 I'll still give it a look, but it feels weak. I tried scroll rack once. It's a much tougher card to play than top. Maybe I just needed to practice with it more but I struggled, it IS super powerful. I'm open to suggestions at this point. I think chalice is just too good in this archetype not to maindeck.
I love the good ol' T1 chalice on 1, so I was wondering how something like wild guess might be since I wouldn't have to worry about chalice on 1.
Wild Guess is what I was using before I switched to top. It's a bit like faithless. Not the worst, but not really great either. The double red can be frustrating.
And is absolutely miserable if countered.
I'm borrowing old tech from Imperial Painter and trying out Magma Jet. It's another means to filter the top of your deck while giving you a little reach (think post Emrakul). It also hits Gaddock Teeg when there's no Mother of Runes.
Tusk up.
i can relate to what hdeck12 said, "most success I've ever had with the deck was a more stompy build featuring chalices and moons".
i like top a lot but i think i'd rather play more threats and lock pieces. as much as pyromancy pulled me out of some tight spots, thoughts on cutting it or moving it to the board?
I'd consider moving it to the board, and adding in either Pyrostatic Pillar (in a combo-heavy metagame) or Mindsparker (in a tempo/control meta).
Here's a list that focuses more on disruption
4 chalice of the void
2 scroll rack
3 trinisphere
4 simian spirit guide
3 inferno titan
3 griselbrand
4 worldspine wurm
4 emrakul, the aeons torn
4 sneak attack
4 seething song
4 through the breach
2 koth of the hammer
5 mountain
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
3 sandstone needle
4 wooded foothills
1 arid mesa
SIDE
3 pyroclasm
3 blood moon
2 defense grid
3 faerie macabre
2 red elemental blast
2 chaos warp
I've always been a fan of Chalice in legacy, in fact I think that chalice owns legacy decks pretty well considering the number of CC 1 spells that are used. Moreover Big Red has even more chance than MUD of playing a cov on turn 1 thanks to simian, and even if we are on the draw we can easily turn the tables since it's what this deck is designed to do.
Scroll rack is the card I would like to test the most: its CC 2 let us play it with CoV and it's ability has synergy with fetchlands, emrakul and wurm shuffle effects and griselbrand and helps against discard too. It also gets rid of extra 3spheres and blood moons and mana when we don't need it anymore.
I upped the count of wurm and titan from my previous list too in order to add consistency to the deck.
I still like koth, but I wouldn't mind replacing it with something else provided its CC is under 5, possibly 4: I don't want my hands to be clogged by uncastable cards. flametongue kavu can find a spot here, if your meta request for it.
Keep in mind that I haven't tested this list at all and I'm merely speculating about the cards (although I have solid experience with them). The only card I really would need to test is scroll rack since it's been ages since the last time that I played it: maybe some of you will try it and gives us its thoughts on the matter.
Any criticism is welcomed!!!
Last edited by kingtk3; 08-01-2013 at 07:12 AM.
Ignorance is strength
Took down a local 20-man tournament yesterday (5-0 / 10-1), only loosing a single game to my own deck (Junk), which I borrowed to a fellow player.
I played the list below and am very happy with the control/disruption suite in trinisphere and blood moon. There's a lot of Storm/Combo and greedy mana bases at my LGS, so that works for me.
just took in the Inferno titan again after having dismissed him for some time, because of meta issues, and are happy with him. Became a key creature in some matches.
When it comes to the discussion regarding Koth of the Hammer and Pyromancy, I'm extremely happy with Pyromancy. Though I would not play more than the 2 at the moment, it has won me several games and even though I haven't testet with Koth (he's in the mail), I think Pyromancy will still be better than Koth, since Koth opens up for removal of our mountains and takes 2-3 turns before Ultimate are active. But I might be surprised when testing him - more to that later.
The List:
4 sneak attack
4 through the breach
2 pyromancy
4 emrakul, the aeons torn
3 worldspine wurm
3 griselbrand
2 inferno titan
3 sensei's divining top
3 blood moon
4 trinisphere
4 seething song
4 simian spirit guide
2 lotus petal
4 ancient tomb
4 sandstone needle
2 city of traitors
4 mountain
4 wooded foothills
//SB
4 pyroblast
2 chalice of the void
3 pyroclasm
2 chaos warp
4 leyline of sanctity
Tournament report (out of memory):
Round one (Aleksander, UR Delver)
Game 1: I got beaten down for two or three turns by a Goblin Guide and nets some lands in the process, before Worldspine Wurm seals the game through the breach. He had no hardcounters in hand.
Game 2: Delver of Secrets beats me down for a while and he counters my Through the Breach and I destroys his Delver with Pyroblast to get some spaces. Pyromancy wins the game for me, since I had to much mana and he had only Daze/Spell Pierce.
1-0 / 2-0
Round two (Steffen, 4c-Deathrite)
Game 1: I play down Sandstone Needle and ships the turn. He tanks for a while and plays down Deathrite Shaman and Go. My opener had turn two Gieselbrand through Sneak Attack, IF my Needle survived (I had only that land in hand). It did and I draw 14 into land and Emrakul for the win. He reveals that he thought of wasteland my Needle, but waited a turn - lucky for me.
Game 2: He gets a Liliana down, but that is not enough. I Gieselbrand her, Blood Moon his board (only duals on his side) and Through the Breach a Worldspine Wurm with Pyroblast backup with him having only Force of Will a turn or two later.
2-0 / 4-0
Round three (Ditlev, RW Goblins)
Game 1: Turn two Worldspine Wurm and he scoops.
Game 2: Pyroclasm his board on turn two and Inferno Titan joins in, but get bounced a turn later. Emrakul, however, joins in a turn later and that's all she wrote.
3-0 / 6-0
Round four (Jeppe, Junk - my own deck)
Game 1: I cast Blood Moon on turn two, after him casting Inquisition of Kozilek on his turn. He somehow fails to understand the impact on his mana base when he takes my Seething Song. GG
Game 2: He disrupts me and lays pressure fast, after me mulliganing to 5 cards. On to game 3.
Game 3: I don't remember this game that well, but win was Sneak Attack into Emrakul to get him to 2 life. I top deck a Simian Spirit Guide a turn later to seal the game.
4-0 / 8-1
Round five (Simon, OmniTell)
Game 1: He's manascrewed since his two Preordains doesn't find him any lands and I take the game after the first threat was countered.
Game 2: This game was pretty tight. We play land-Go for 4-5 turns. I try Throught the Breach into Worldspine Wurm, but he counters it. I resolve top and Trinisphere and try 1 Sneak Attack and 1 Pyromancy before the second Pyromancy sticks with me having two Emrakul and 1 Worldspine Wurm in hand and lots of mana.
5-0 / 10-1
Afterthoughs:
I have had this Deck on the shevels for a while, playing 12 Post instead, but really enjoy playing it again. Think it's the deck for now :-)
Trinisphere are the nuts
Blood Moon are the nuts
Inferno Titan are good again
Thinking about adding the fourth Worldspine Wurm. Many times I sit with a Through the Breach in hand and Gieselbrand og Emrakul and nothing else, where Worldspine Wurm would be Godlike. Does anyone else think that Through the Breach can at times be meeh? most of the times it's not GG!
/PollePotDK
First of all congratz for the finish!
I agree with you: especially against non white decks Wurm is the best you can cheat into play because of its "dies" ability, not to mention that it's not karakas-ble.
I think that 4 is the right number.
Ignorance is strength
I played tonight in a 12man to a 3-1 finish. I won most of the games, didn't encounter much countermagic, so I can't comment too much on the benefit of Defense Grid coming out of the sideboard. Grafdigger's Cage was clutch several times.
First Match was against Burn, which was one of those crazy ones you don't expect. Game 1- I was on the play, and hit a turn one Trinisphere, but was ultimately killed by his turn 1 Goblin Guide and his combination of burn spells. I figured he was playing burn and kept a hand with a T1 Trinisphere, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, SSG, Sneak Attack, Worldspine. I didn't draw the remainder of my red mana to get the Sneak Attack going.
Game 2 to 3- not as much problem. Game 2, I set up a Sneak Attack w Griselbrand, Emrakul and Worldspine.
Match 2- No Mana- Lab Maniac & Undercity Informer Combo Deck- He won first game, 1 turn before I could combo. Second Game I won without issue. G3- He won Turn 0 (before I drew).
Match 3 and 4 were budget brews without any problems.
Forgot decklist!
4 sneak attack
4 through the breach
4 emrakul, the aeons torn
4 worldspine wurm
2 griselbrand
3 inferno titan
4 sensei's divining top
3 blood moon
4 trinisphere
4 seething song
4 simian spirit guide
1 lotus petal
4 ancient tomb
4 sandstone needle
3 city of traitors
4 mountain
4 bloodstained mire
Just played my way to the top 8 of 36 man tournament at Mythic Games in Elmira, NY.
4 sandstone needle
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
4 arid mesa
1 scalding tarn
4 mountain
1 lotus petal
4 simian spirit guide
4 seething song
4 sneak attack
4 through the breach
1 pyromancy
4 worldspine wurm
4 emrakul, the aeons torn
3 griselbrand
3 inferno titan
4 chalice of the void
2 trinisphere
1 scroll rack
1 crystal ball
1 chaos warp
//SB
2 pyroclasm
2 trinisphere
4 blood moon
3 grafdigger's cage
4 defense grid
Round 1 Lost to BRw aggro attrition (finished 2nd over all) in 3. It was the guy I rode with to the tournament, his cabal therapies were really good game one since he knew what I was on. Pretty much got discarded out of games 1 and 3.
Round 2 Won over Elves in 2, Chalice followed by titan ended both games quickly.
Round 3 Won over Elves in 3, I kept a turn 3 on the draw hand game two and was punished for it, Trinisphere and titan sealed up games 1 and 3.
Round 4 Lost to TES (finished 5-8 over all) in 3. Game 1 turn 1 chalice gets there. Game 2 he goes off turn 0. Game 3 my turn 1 blood moon doesn't do enough to stop his turn 2 kill.
Round 5 Won over Thalia Goblins in 3.
Round 6 won over UR burn in 3. The deck was very kind to me this match, it was super close, and on game three it delivered crucial cards at crucial moments.
8th seed going into Top 8
Quarterfinal I'm on the draw against Reanimator...balls!
Game 1 he entombs in response to my turn 1 chalice, turn 2 exhumes.
Game 2 I have the win in my hand and totally blow it. Turn 1 I play chalice at 1. He draws and gives up his land drop to discard. On my turn two I have double seething song, Grid and Chalice in hand. I'm supposed to double song, and play grid into chalice at 2 to lock him out of the game. When he lets my first song resolve I have a mental lapse and wonder why I don't have enough mane to cast both (forgetting I had another song, or thinking I had already made my planned play, who knows, it was dumb) and just drop the chalice at 2 and he forces (which wouldn't have happened if I had done what I was supposed to). Granted if he had double force my play wouldn't have worked, but I don't think he did, I didn't even ask cause I was so mad at myself. So then he reanimates his bro that makes me discard my hand on every end step and I die a few turns later.
Notes on the day:
I sided out crystal ball and Scroll rack every single game. I think for digging, it's Top or more lock pieces. Granted I didn't get to cast ball ever so the jury's still out, but I never had enough cards in hand to effectively use scroll rack.
With more lock pieces, there needs to be one less sandstone and one more petal or ctiy.
Against reanimator I ran into not being able to cast my cage while a chalice was in play. I really just wanted karakas.
I think chaos warp is a board card, I should of had the third trinisphere or a moon main.
Hope you all had a good weekend.
-H
nice @hessenbob and @hdeck12! i definitely approve the titans being back in the main. would you ever run just 3 chalice in the mainboard, or do you always want the 4?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote