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Thread: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

  1. #21
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    I am extremely fascinated by this deck.

    What challenges does this deck face in matchups?
    Does the deck lose to itself more than to its opponents?
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    Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
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  2. #22
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    Lost to itself....very rarely. Mana denial is a good line of attack against us. Seething song is one of the best casrd in your opener against anyone. Beats the soft counters from blue, and accelerates you past anything else. There are some 5th copies of things to ensure consistency. The lotus petal (free red), the monolith (2 mana ritual), and the ulamog (anihilator). There certainly have been times when I've mulliganed myself out of a game, but almost never game one. Usually if I know I need a certain card or sequence I will mulligan until I see it and variance exists.

    @Koby (or anyone listening): If you're headed to GP denver and are thinking about this deck let me know and I can walk you through the matchups with more detail.

    Your challenges are control. Any tribal matchup is pretty much a joke. Merfolk can sometimes get there with blue blast out of the board but its rare. Titan is a fish fry.

    This deck is a turn three combo deck. If you're not the aggressor in nearly all your games, then you're playing it wrong. TES (storm combo) is the only match that you're on defense. There are enough mana sources that you can play around soft counters pretty easily and then you just have too many threats for there set of force of wills. And you straight up blank cards like spell snare and abrupt decay. Another sweet point is that you don't catch other combo hate. Most of it is for storm or graveyard strategies.

    Tough matchups:
    Reanimator: against a good opponent will be nearly impossible unless he draws bad. Luckily their numbers are super low thanks to dredge hate and deathrite shaman. I choose leyline of the void as my hate because is doesn't interact with either thoughtseize or force of will.
    Sneak show: I tested against an extremely high level player and won about 15% of games (didn't really do matches). In sanctioned events I'm something like 20-2 against sneak show players (my losses being to that guy I tested against)....wtf for now.
    Miracles: was pretty tough, but since the addition of maindeck defense grids it's gotten way easier. Deep dark little secret...your spirit guides get cast and start attacking asap in this matchup.
    RUG: Game one is tough if they know what you're doing, but after board you look a lot better.

    If they're not playing blue or black, you win. If they're playing black, you probably win. Pyromancy is really good against discard spells and if they don't have you on a clock you'll quickly draw out of any situation. You have things in slightly higher numbers than most other decks are prepared for. If they're playing blue then you usually cast titan and ride him to the win while they counter your sneak spells.

    Goblins seem to be everywhere right now. This is an easy matchup but is over fast no matter who wins. I think some more maindeck moons is the correct meta choice right now which helps this matchup a lot. Through the breach is the star of this one being able to be cast through a port lock.

    Give it a whirl in your local meta or an SCG. If you like attacking with big things, you'll have a blast, and very few will have any clue what you're doing. "FOW your sneak attack" "ok" "daze your through the breach" "ok" "spell pierce your inferno titan, wait, huh...WHA!?!"

    -Hdeck12

  3. #23
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    i'm playing this in denver. lets hammer out a siq list

  4. #24

    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    This is a great thread; mono-red sneak attack is a blast. The decklists you guys have posted are essentially state of the art Legacy-legal builds of Fujita's 2005 Extended Sneak Attack deck, and as such I think the decklist deserves discussion in this thread:

    Creatures (14)
    2 Crater Hellion
    4 Dragon Tyrant
    1 Serra Avatar
    3 Symbiotic Wurm
    4 Rorix Bladewing
    Lands (18)
    4 Mountain
    3 City of Traitors
    3 Crystal Vein
    4 Dwarven Ruins
    4 Sandstone Needle
    Spells (28)
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Sneak Attack
    4 Blazing Shoal
    4 Desperate Ritual
    4 Seething Song
    4 Through the Breach
    4 Gamble
    Sideboard
    4 Defense Grid
    1 Duplicant
    3 Serra Avatar
    4 Pyrostatic Pillar
    2 Final Fortune
    1 Cave-In


    ----

    Fujita's creatures are dated but the fundamental technology and disruption hasn't changed much. The 2012 Legacy manabase is on the whole much better than the 2005 Extended manabase.

    I think Pyromancy is a brilliant inclusion and a very strong reason to play this version of Sneak Attack. Especially with the huge mana costs on the guys we'd like to cheat in. Blazing Shoal is clearly no good when the best Sneak Attack creatures aren't red.

    A question for those of you playing the deck: have you tried Chrome Mox or Gamble? Those stand out as the strongest cards from Fujita's list that nobody is talking about. If they're bad, then why are they bad?

  5. #25
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    i don't think the deck runs enough red cards to pitch to chrome mox. i wouldn't want to pitch pieces of the combo like seething song, sneak attack or through the breach. simian spirit guide does the same job but you know... can lay some beats if he really has to.

    gamble seems dope but the random discard might keep us from going off the current/following turn. i feel faithless looting is just better in that slot.

  6. #26
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    This deck seems awesome to me - almost like a combo version of Dragon Stompy!

  7. #27
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    @adamliniscus: xdavis x is right on. In legacy you really can't be doing random things. The reason we get away with it with pyromancy is because A)we cast our rituals to activate pyromancy ensuring what is discarded is a nuke, or B)it doesn't matter whats discarded because any card in your hand kills Bob. I've seen some lists with gamble. It really is a gamble, and I don't want to tap a mountain, use up a card and then potentially discard the the card I just tutored up. This deck is too good for that. We don't have the red cards to pitch for chrome mox. Mox diaomond or mox opal (with a chalice/trinishphere build) would probably be more useful if useful at all.

    Blazing shoal introduces an interesting play. I'm not opposed to considering it as a one of. I've been looking for a 1CC arcane spell to splice through the breach on. This one actually works being able to pitch spirit guide (=1CC) or even titan if really necessary. Downside is there needs to be a legal target in play to use it. Some other options for this are desperate ritual or glacial ray. The ritual being the weaker of the two because we can't actually use the mana to splice with.

    @xdavisx: what are your thoughts on Agent of Stromgald or Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth? You thought casting inferno titan was fun, this could be a whole new ball game.

    -Hdeck

  8. #28
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    Agent of Stromgald and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth would be sweet but i think the inclusion of them would slow the deck down and make it a bit more inconsistent. i also don't like the idea of adding another wasteland target. i think it would be a whole new deck to build around along the lines of what hollywood was doing with discard and stronghold gambit.

  9. #29
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    @hdeck12 i'm heading out to denver this weekend and i'm looking for some pointers. here's a list i thought up with some of the card choices you've suggested.


    4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    3 inferno titan
    2 worldspine warm
    2 griselbrand
    3 Blightsteel Colossus
    1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
    4 simian spirit guide

    4 seething song
    4 sneak attack
    4 through the breach
    3 faithless looting
    1 lotus petal
    2 pyromancy
    3 defense grid
    1 grim monolith
    1 bloodmoon

    4 ancient tomb
    4 sandstone needle
    3 city of traitors
    7 mountain

    sideboard

    3 koth of the hammer
    2 pyroblast
    1 bloodmoon
    2 pyroclasm
    4 leyline of the void
    2 chaos warp
    ? obliterate or 3rd chaos warp


    about the sideboard, koth is there for the easy swap out for inferno titans against miracles. i really like the idea of obliterate but is it better than another blood moon, chaos warp or a 4th blightsteel. i would like to squeeze the 4th blightsteel in the main but do you think it would make it to threat heavy?

  10. #30
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    @xdavisx: I've been working on a match ups write up for you. I should finish it tonight, don't really wanna post the whole thing on here since surprise is our best weapon, but check your notifications tomorrow, or tonight depending on your sleep habbits.

  11. #31

    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    I love this deck. I played a similar list a few weeks ago making a 3-3 in a meta plenty of Jund/BUG/Team America. I have to say that IMHO the deck requires at least 2-3 blood moon main deck (or 2 main 1 side) and 4 Leyline of Sanctity ready to side in to stop the discard effects.
    Other considerations:

    - Why don't we cut 1xGrim Monolith for a basic Mountain to stabilize a little more the manabase?
    - Aren't 15 beasts excessive? I think 12-13 are perfect for our purpose. We could use 2 slots for the second blood moon and the third pyromancy.
    - Isn't Blightsteel Colossus a "risky creature"? In our dream it's very easy: song - breach/sneak - colussus - win. But in reality a single deathrite shaman with a 2 toughness it's enough to stop the infection. So, I'd prefer more copy of Worldspine Wurm at this rate..


    @ xdavisx: Good luck and don't forget to report us!! We need to improve this beautiful deck!!

  12. #32
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    Quote Originally Posted by crovax86 View Post
    Other considerations:

    - Aren't 15 beasts excessive? I think 12-13 are perfect for our purpose. We could use 2 slots for the second blood moon and the third pyromancy.
    - Isn't Blightsteel Colossus a "risky creature"? In our dream it's very easy: song - breach/sneak - colussus - win. But in reality a single deathrite shaman with a 2 toughness it's enough to stop the infection. So, I'd prefer more copy of Worldspine Wurm at this rate..
    • Excluding SSG & Titan, I think 11-12 creatures is the right call. That's a generally accepted area among combo players for finding at least one of a certain card-type.
    • Yes, and I said this a while ago, but everyone ignored it. My point was exactly the same as yours: if they have two or greater toughness untapped, you have to draw two Colossi to win, and your first one traded with only one creature. I'd rather have Emrakul, Grislebrand, Worldspine, Titan, Ulamog, and/or Woodfall Primus before the Colossus.

  13. #33
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    @Crovax Your meta is begging for moons. Sorry you showed up with the wrong plan. Titan is not a piece of the combo. He's our back up plan. Two turn clock (3 damage on cast, swing for 9 twice, firebreathing if you have to) off a solo creature that we don't even need to cheat in is too sweet. He's usually cast against tempo decks to beat spell pierce, Aggro decks to beat 3 x/1s and Maverick to kill Green Suns Zenith x=2.

    This list very easily can cut Defense grid X3, Blightsteel X3 In order to add Blood Moon X2 and Magus of the moon X4. Thats the disruption package I was using the first time I took this competitive. You literally go turn one or two moon effect every game. I found myself drawing too many blanks and I just couldn't figure out how to mulligan. I bet there's a good number between 1 and 7 (3 blood 4 magus), but I have yet to make a plan for it. The reason I play one, is because two are literally useless if the first isn't dealt with, and I (almost) never have to decide if keeping a weak turn one moon hand will be good enough. Its not game over if they crack one fetch, if you're relying on moon, it can be. In a combo deck like this we just can't afford too many more dead cards. Main deck Moons was one of the inspirations for actually trying this as a real deck. Unfortunately I've managed to tune most of them out since their effect is much like stifle...always in the back of your opponents mind. Its real easy to sell that you're playing a moon effect to someone. They will bite and fetch basics like their life depends on it, cause it does, lets face it, a moon makes tundra pretty dumb.

    @igri I agree. Blightsteel got a lot worse with the printing of the last set. The problem is we have no real way to interact with storm combo, Ad nauseum specifically. With Silence out of TES, Probe/Therapy out of ANT and infinite cantrips in each, we're just a turn slower every time. Yes, emrakul is great, yes griselbrand is great. Problem is, thats only 7 slots for one combo piece which you clearly know is not enough. Without a tutor like intuition or x-wish we go for a smooth blend of pieces. In comes Blightsteel for speed, and Worldspine for Depth. The numbers on both are a meta choice. Ulamog (annihilator #5): enough power for pyromancy, not enough game ending skills for a consistent target. In a combo match they still have enough life to ad nauseum after losing a land or two. In a control match, the annihilator 4 just isn't enough to clear the board after a few turns. Grisel: We just don't want 4. He's a means to an end, not an end. Having two in your opener is really like having 6 cards. Two emrakuls means game over in two sneak activations, two grisels means more than the 14 cards we already drew from the first? If they didn't do it, I wouldn't bet on the next 7. I play 3 titans main, 1 board. I never really want more than 1, and against most aggro decks, all we need is one. Primus. This one was considered upon initial construction. He's a sweet creature, but not by himself. He's not a fast enough clock, he's not castable (I know you don't think blightsteel is either, but legacy is all about options and being dynamic, sometimes it happens), he doesn't fit the "we only need two pyromancy activations to win" plan, and well, destroying two lands just hasn't been good enough in testing. Most decks can recover in 4 turns and without any real evasion he doesn't survive. If his ability was destroy target permanent, I'd play him. But everytime I find him, I'd rather destroy a creature. He could serve the same purpose as chaos warp out of the board. 3 mana instant speed vs comboing off in order to get rid of hate though. I'll take the 3 mana 1 card option, not 5 mana 2 card option. I think they're all fine targets but deserve their own builds with different support cards. Maybe gatecrash will make us happy...

  14. #34
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    And Grim Monolith is actually seething song number 5. That spot has gone back and fourth between City of traitors and Sandstone needle. For now I've settled on the monolith. It most likely won't be in the next iteration.

  15. #35
    bruizar
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    Board in Stronghold Gambit if you want to race storm/time spiral

    Last edited by bruizar; 01-04-2013 at 07:17 AM.

  16. #36

    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Board in Stronghold Gambit if you want to race storn/time spiral
    basically a free Show and Tell. nice

  17. #37
    bruizar
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    T1 land, spirit guide, stronghold gambit emrakul is quiet powerful =] You can even board it against SNT decks as long as you reveal a cheaper creature than they have. Stronghold Gambit is asymmetric.

  18. #38

    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    @hdeck12: Thank U for the hint, my fear in playing 7 moon effects is, as you said, see them more than necessary. But maybe lootings will help to "cycle" the unnecessary. Anyway I'll test this configuration in my Jund/Bug/TA meta and I'll let you know!

    For what concerns creatures nowadays (excluding SSG and Titan) the best configuration IMHO is: 4x Emrakul, 4x Worldspine Wurm and 3x Griselbrand.
    Ulamog's annihilator is not so effective, plus it can be easily blocked (it doesn't fly, it doesn't trample..) - ok, if we "ramp" 11 we can cast it but..how many times it can happen? Worldspine with a single attack gives us more assurances.

    @bruizar: Stronghold Gambit could be a nice "side-in" vs some matchups - Miracle Control (usually they play only 2x Vendilion, and vs us side out the snares), ANT/TES, Spiral Tide, Enchantress..vs show and tell if U "gambit" inferno titan or Griselbrand (at worst we've both lost a creature with the difference that the opponent loss will be unplanned)..
    I think that card deserves a test.

  19. #39
    bruizar
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    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    I'd even try them main if I could squeeze in gitaxian probes. If they are keeping creatures in hand to keep you from using stronghold gambit, you aren't getting much pressure most of the time. So you can build your mana and go for Sneak Attack or Through the Breach . If they don't keep it in hand, you steal the game.

  20. #40

    Re: Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

    I've been playing this recently with good luck.

    1 Blightsteel Colossus
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Inferno Titan
    4 Worldspine Wurm
    4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    2 Griselbrand

    4 Seething Song
    4 Through the Breach
    3 Faithless Looting
    3 Pyromancy

    4 Sneak Attack

    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Grim Monolith
    3 Defense Grid
    8 Mountain
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 City of Traitors
    4 Sandstone Needle

    I played this recently and went 2-1 with it in our local tournament. Here were my thoughts (I didn't take any notes, so sorry they are slim).
    - Won vs Maverick, Affinity, and lost to Dredge. Had to leave before the tournament was over.

    Pyromancy- at 2 Pyromancy I was not drawing it. I was drawing it at 3.

    Worldspine over Ulamog- I like having 4 Worldspine to turn into trampler tolkens over a sole Ulamog.

    Why 2 Griselbrand instead of 3- I rarely wanted more than one in hand at any point. 2 in opening hand effectively acted as a mulligan for me.

    Defense Grid at 3- I did not need to use them at all out of the 4 rounds in our local tournament. I previously was running 4, but found I'd rather have 3 Pyromancy.

    Inferno Titan at 4- I was surprised that I hard casted him twice in one game, and hard casted him a total of 4 times over the night. One time it was a beautiful turn 2.

    Last Note
    - 3x Volcanic Fallout was unbelievable in killing Noble Hierarchs, Deathrite Shamans, miscellaneous aggro guys, and goblins. I ended up siding them in for Defense Grids almost all night, and would have run them Mainboard if I could have guessed the extent of the absence of Blue decks.


    edited- I think I forgot to put Worldspine at 4 in my first post.
    Last edited by hessenbob; 01-06-2013 at 12:04 PM.

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