Played it again last night at our weekly Legacy event Blood sun was actually ok got it off turn 1 against opposing players with all fetches and I like the synergy is has with City of Traitors - not sure if worthwhile yet though,
List I played was as follows:
4 Petal
4 SSg
2 Emrakul
2 Wurm
3 Griselbrand
3 Inferno Titan
1 Combustible Gearhulk
3 Seething Song
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Mountain
1 Sandstone Needle
4 Chalice
4 Moon
3 Blood Sun
4 Sneak
4 Breach
SB
1 Spyglass
2 Macabre
2 Confluence
2 Chandra
3 Trinisphere
2 Abrade
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Boil
Mainly struggle with cards to take out - been taking out seething song against Counters and Chalice against other chalice decks but after that I'm hesitant to take things out especially combo pieces/fatties.
Any tips or suggestions welcome.
Match depending, I would consider cutting: Combustible Gearhulk, Seething Song, 1-2x Griselbrand, Blood Sun, Chalice, Blood Moon, 1x Breach. If you want more practice advice, I'd suggest watching how Jeff Hoogland sideboards playing the deck: https://www.youtube.com/user/Jeffhoo...?query=big+red
I don't get very many chances to play legacy anymore, but I still bring this deck everywhere I go. The meta has been tough lately, I think Blood Sun actually helps us without playing it. Stompy decks are more prevelant and well...if you've ever lost to dragon stompy, stop playing this deck.
Question on another card though.....can we actually run Stolen Strategy in the board for matchups like BUG or NLT?
Well, recently I've been back on Big Red chasing down those free wins amidst the chaos post ban.
I've been playing the deck a lot on MTGO and have some thoughts.
Blood Moon: I have definitely seen a decent amount of basic lands post-DRS-ban, but it's generally out of decks we don't have to worry about. RUG is making a resurgence and if we can land an early Moon before they land a threat, the game is already over. The general consensus that I've been hearing over and over lately is that Wasteland gets better post-ban (since no DRS fixing) and that Blood Moon gets worse (since more basics). The problem with that statement is the Wasteland being good in the format has the same prerequisites as Moon being good. They are not mutually exclusive. If you can waste it, you can make it a mountain.
Chalice: I think we get a strict upgrade here. People are lowering their curves since they lose the velocity to power out 2-3 mana spells off of shaky mana-bases with DRS. Lower curves = more chalice triggers. Just watch out for Spell Snare.
Inferno Titan: I think maxing out on Inferno Titans might really be the way to go. I'm currently at 3, but 4 might be correct. Castable threats are going to be premium in this fresh-new-world, especially ones with strapped-on removal. Especially, especially when D&T got a noticeable boost from the banning.
Here is the list I'm currently running:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 City of Traitors
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Griselbrand
3 Inferno Titan
4 Lotus Petal
10 Mountain
1 Sandstone Needle
3 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
2 Worldspine Wurm
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Sideboard:
2 Abrade
2 Defense Grid
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Kozilek's Return
3 Trinisphere
It's nothing fancy, but it feels fairly well rounded. I've found Wurmcoil to be great. It can pull you out of positions where your life total is in great duress and it leaves behind duderinos after cheating it into play. Having more castable threats is always good for the deck. I've also found it to just be more reliable that Gearhulk. Sure, sometimes a hulk can just KO your opponent, but other times it flips 3 lands and you sit there looking like a fool.
4 Faerie Macabre is a necessity right now. Don't leave home without those or Leylines.
I actually tried a list with Zhalfririn Void when I first rebuilt the deck (along with Woodfall Primus) and I eventually cut it.
Went back down to the standard 19 lands and have been very happy with it. Every now and then the scry was helpful, but I found more-often than not I'd rather it just be a red source or a sol-land.
I haven't tried out Karn, mostly because I don't own any, but I can see how it could be very good. Double red for Chandra can sometimes be difficult, but Chandra herself being mana-fixing, removal and a clock make her invaluable.
I don't actually have a metric for that. I've been playing DDFT and Bizarro Stormy for the past year.
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 City of Traitors
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Inferno Titan
4 Lotus Petal
10 Mountain
1 Sandstone Needle
3 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
3 Worldspine Wurm
3 Fiery Confluence
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
//Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ashen Rider
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Abrade
3 Trinisphere
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
I know it might be contrarian, but I like running the deck without Griselbrand. There is nothing more infuriating than sneaking Griseldaddy into play only to draw 14 and ending up with no good creatures drawn (it happens alot). Or Having to put Griselb in off of through the breach without the ability to sneak in another big :/ . Or getting your life clocked down below 8 so you can't active Griselb once he is finally out on the battlefield. My attitude is simple, I only want to cheat in creatures that will end the game period. I don't want to cheat in a card that lets me search for what I want, I want to sneak in what I want full stop. I've replaced 3x Griselbrand's with 3x fiery confluence in the main, which are very castable beasts. There is a reason moon stomp play them, not only can it clear bridge, batterskull, jitte's it can clear the board of little shit creatures and more often than not, 6 to the dome can get you there with titan's on board. I doubt you guys will believe me but I've convinced the deck can run great without it.
Last edited by Fallen_Empire; 07-10-2018 at 03:04 PM.
I've never gone below 2 Griselbees and that was when I was running 3x 3-balls in the main.
Fiery confluence is indeed powerful and I would like to find room for it in my list, but I haven't quite been able to yet.
I think If I were to cut anything, it would be the 2 Abrades and keep 2 Confluence in their spot in the board. I don't think it's quite the effect I want main. Game 1 I just want to jam and not worry about their interaction or permanent.
Just dead 'em.
Interesting list just got 2nd place at a 115 man invitational event in China:
Chinese List
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
2 Sandstone Needle
2 Ashen Rider
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Griselbrand
2 Inferno Titan
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Woodfall Primus
2 Worldspine Wurm
2 Seething Song
4 Through the Breach
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Lotus Petal
4 Sneak Attack
SIDEBOARD
1 Abrade
1 Chaos Warp
2 Defense Grid
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Pyroclasm
2 Stronghold Gambit
4 Trinisphere
Notably no moon effects, main-board sneak n show hate and 4x Thought-Knot's main.
Agree on titans - I went 3-2 at a 26 person 1k at Pastimes games here in Illinois this week - I ran into 2 D&T decks and hardcasting titan did a lot of work. Took out containment priest, thalia guardian, canonist. My entire tournament was pretty much titans and wurms and they both won about the same amount for context.
Ok, I'm going to try the Chinese list very soon, reason, the 3 new fatty's and TKS main intrigued me (also, hdeck12 tried the TKS suit before and I was also intrigued :-))
First of all, let's discuss the lack of blood moon. Even Kapn' Cook went down to 1 Blood Moon, because it just doesn't do enough anymore and mostly, it doesn't advance our game plan.
Let's take the PRO's:
- Worst case, it gets countered (but that's ok, since it baited a counter)
- It MIGHT give you a couple of free wins (look how I emphasized the word 'might')
- It disrupts the opponent's wastelands, karakas, ports.
The CON's:
- The opponent can play around it
- It's a dead card in multiples (or even the first one if it doesn't disrupt anything)
- It's doesn't advance our gameplan or is an actual treat/clock.
- And most importantly, it will LOSE us games!
Yes I said it, it LOSES us more games than it wins us. Why? Very simple, this is already a very mulligan heavy deck. So somethings you just hang on that turn 1 or 2 blood moon to win you that game, or slow the opponent down enough.
Now figure this, assume it doesn't get countered, it will cost you 3 or 4 cards from your hand to put it on the board turn 1. (or less turn 2) Just to turn our Sol lands to mountains and actually needing 4 more mana drops to go off (5 for TTB or Sneak attack + activate) That means you need to draw in 4 mana sources and still have an enabler and a fatty. (and you just blew some sources on that moon) I don't need to draw you a picture that an opponent who can play around the moon or dropped a turn 1 treat/vial, will probably win the game better than you.
Now lets look at TKS:
- It can bait a counter (same like blood moon)
- It doesn't suck in multiples
- If it doesn't get countered it WILL checks if the coast is clear and disrupt the opponent/protect our gameplan. Because it will EXILE (it won't return) a counter/discard spell, disruption piece or even a removal piece (if they can still cast it with CotV on 1)
- It's a 4/4 castable colorless (important against mother of runes) treat that needs to be answered.
- It improves our matchup against other combo decks.
Biggest downside of TKS: you need one of your 8 sol lands to cast him.
Best case scenario, is that you cast it turn 2 or 3 (yes turn 1 is also possible) just before you go off.
Let's take one of our difficult matchups: DnT. TKS is an already difficult to answer treat that will take a Containment Priest/Thalia/Revoker/Recruiter out of their hand or even an STP that could answer the TKS. Yes, Inferno Titan might be better in this matchup, but TKS supplements the titan here.
In other matchups it can take a bridge, an GSZ (to Teeg), discard, counters, … but also slow combo decks down.
Like said before, it's important to have more castable treats. Well, TKS replaces not only titan 3 and 4 (and 5 and 6), it also does more.
I think we don't need to talk about the chandra's and the cut on seething songs (our worst card, and card disadvantage against blue decks) But the 3 new fatty's main deck.
At first it looks like 'only' maindeck SnT hate. But don't forget, with them, you have answers to ensnaring bridge, karakas (compensation the lack of bloodmoon), disrupt/slow their gameplan or just blow up lands. Primus even leaves behind a 5/5 trample body. I think they will go out against faster combo decks.
I will leave a report once I have tested it.
So far the goldfishing with TKS was great. It just felt better than Bloodmoon. Also I was never discontent when I saw multiples. Ah well, we'll see tonight.
Btw, I was making a sideboard list for myself, but Infect and Miracles is a bit tricky.
Infect
-2 Seething Song
-2 Chandra
-1 Woodfall Primus
-3? what to remove
+4 Trinisphere
+2 Pyroclasm
+1 Kozilek's Return
+1 Abrade
Miracles
-2 Seething Song
-2 Ashen Rider
-1 Woodfall Primus
-1??
+4 Trinisphere
+2 Defense Grid
+1 Abrade
I guess we want all the anti-counter artifacts, and that one abrade is mostly for Containment Priest. Boarding the pyroclasm's seems overkill, especially since we have castable threats and our UR Cousin doesn't.
Went yesterday 3-0-1.
16 players
2 Miracles (yey...)
2 DnT (*sigh*)
2 infect (my SB guide isn't ready for you guys)
1 Eldrazi
1 Steel Stompy
1 goblins
1 TES
1 Tezzerator
1 Food Chain
1 RUG Delver
1 Rector control
1 Aggro Loam
and I can't remember the last guy, sorry last guy!
Defenitly liked the TKS over BloodMoon. Had 3 games where Bloodmoon was defenitly an asset (2x DnT and Steel Stompy) but TKS pulled his weight hard.
Also In the 10 games I played, I think I mulliganed 6 or 7 times of the 10. On the bright side, I never had to mull below 6 and it always were good mulligans.
Round 1: Steel Stompy 2-0
Went as expected, quickly went off, opponent didn't saw revokers.
Round 2: DnT 2-1
Good tight games, as expected. Won mostly because of inexperience (of the meta) of my opponent. But we had some awesome tight games, Ashen rider also did his job, blowing up permanents in the mid of combat :-) Had a game where I led with an TKS and saw STP, Path to exile, 2 ports and something else. So I took the STP, hoping he would blow the path on my TKS because I had an Inferno Titan ready to go. He topdecked another STP, so my plan was foiled, plus the 2 ports really do their thing against our deck. One of the moments where BloodMoon is decent (also against karakas and waste) on the other hand, you also slow yourself down.
Round 3: Food Chain 2-0
My opponent never saw his Food Chain and I rather killed him quickly. TKS ate a force, one turn later I played my sneak without treats (lucky, because the turn after I got hit with a hymn) and it was the waiting game until one of us went off. I got luckier.
Game 2, I had a castable hand (TKS and Inferno titan) was a interesting game. He went with the blue tutor mage thing to search for needle and played it on Sneak Attack (had one in hand) Through the breached an Ashen Rider to blow 2 lands up. Went to town by blowing up his creatures through titan and chandra.
Round 4: DnT 1-1-1
Best games of the evening. Hit him game 1 with a turn 2 or 3 Worldspine wurm and he managed to stabilize and recover, although that I lost this game, it was so tense and nerve racking. Again, Thalia and Port did their job.
Game 2 I won with TKS riding from 20 to 4, and then he stabilised and disrupted, but in the end I got through.
Game 3 went into time, but also an awesome game, again the ports and thalia doing their business. And I did a misplay when we were in time. +1'ed chandra for an exiled card, exiling a land that I thought I could play but of course I can't cast it. If I just added 2 red mana, I didn't have to use a petal because of thalia to cast my pyroclasm, and next turn I could exile to get Sneak Attack, play it and activate it with 2 griselbrand in hand.
Btw, TTB saved me 2 times, because it was instant speed, using the mana they tried to port. (and once sneaking in a griselbrand midcombat, but that's nothing new.
In conclusion, fun games, great opponents, tight games, TKS is awesome in this deck, liked the ashen rider main, a decent sideboard, had some 'luck' with the matchups (only 1 blue deck, but also 2 DnT's) and didn't had to mull TOO hard. Will probably try it again soon and at a bigger tournament.
Xod out.
Nice, Xod
I played a 2/2 moon thought-knot split yesterday at my weekly. Went 3-0-1.
2-1 Sneak n Show
2-0 Infect
2-0 Sneak n Show
1-2 Jeskai Stoneblade
Worth mentioning, I've always felt SnS was this deck's Achilles heel... I still don't think we are favored, but I think thought-knot really helps us here. They don't want to put in a show n tell ---> Emrakul because we can throw it back in their face with our own Emrakul or Wurm drop so historically we get wrecked by Omniscience instead.
Now when they show in an Omniscience, we can put in play thought-knot and when it comes into play we can remove Emrakul from their hand. Not to mention jamming thots help strip their hand of combo pieces. The deck feels really good.
Fallen, how did you board against Infect? (mostly, what do you board out)
Against SnS I can always put an Ashen Rider in, solves all the problems ;-)
Can you share your list?
Still having some issues what do board out against DnT. Do we remove the CotV and a Sneak attack? (but my opponents kept the STP in, especially against the Wurm and TKS and if on the play, stopping that vial is crucial)
Or do we do as hoogland and remove the seething songs, 1 or 2 sneak attacks and the Emrakul? (Sneaks are less interesting with Revokers and such, and Emrakul can get karakased without the moon effect, although Rider/Primus does a job here game 1 and helps against other problems like Batterskull, port, vial, ...) The seething songs I kept in originally, but with a Thalia out it doesn't do that much and we rather have a threat, but with Thalia, waste/port, it can be difficult to get going.
In the beginning I removed the Chandra's, like against most creature decks. But it acts as an extra removal piece for their creatures and to stabilize the mana (next turn). Although the filter option doesn't let you play lands which I find a problem.
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