@Barook: I feel like 3 Jittes probably is the right number. Against tribal decks, Jitte for the win is plan a. Furthermore, it's the only mainboard creature hate I have got. As Jitte usually pulls a lot of hate, it will be targetted down quite often, thus having 2 in hand isn't the worst thing in the world.
Mask of Memory is a nice idea, I had not considered that. It seems mainly good because you will often wind up with multiple Karakas/Thalia/Chrome Moxen etc. I am going to test it over the third Jitte.
As far as your edit goes; I don't believe the SFM will have haste, but we might need a judge to confirm this. If it were true, Restoration Angel is totally bonkers.
@RaZe: Squadron Hawk is mostly good because of Chrome Mox, if you don't play the Mox I'd stay away from Hawk as well. Restoration Angel is very good in general and very effective in combination with Blade Splicer, SFM and Metamorph.
Team R&D
All the SFM needs is not being summoning sick. The activation comes from the SFM before it gets blinked. The "fresh" SFM after blinking grabs the equipment while the pre-blink activation puts the equipment into play.Originally Posted by Mantis
Assuming you have the 6 mana available, you could
- pull it off at the opponent's EoT, then equip Batterskull to the Angel in your turn and bash with a 7/8 flying vigilance lifelinker out of nowhere or
- put down a 3/4 flyer and a Batterskull during your opponent's attack phase for suprise blockers.
Sure, it's mana intensive and SFM needs to be active to pull it off, but it does seem like a strong play.
Make sure to test Elspeth as well. Jumping Batterskulls and Crusaders should definitely be good.
What do you think of Ghostway as a protection against (mass) removal and way to do some tricks with SFM/Splicer/Mangara?
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
I don't like it.
You need mana open for it to happen and it doesn't have a body, thus it also gets extra-taxed. Part of the deck is breaking the symmetry of your taxing.
I don't recall if anyone seriously tried out Lodestone Golem, but the card comes up from time to time in D+T threads. The players eventually recognize that it is not quite the right fit, and the card comes under discussion 12 months later. But this deck actually looks like a better fit. Also, you might benefit from the Dust Bowl/Flagstones of Trokair tech we have been toying with. You only need 1 or 2 of each for a lot of effect.
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Actually, that's pretty interesting tech. I don't know if I would really want more than one of each, though.
Lodestone Golem is pretty good (and dies very easily), but I want to try out the Restoration Angel since it looks like it could enable some very strong plays. The deck can only support that many 4 drops.
Lodestone gets a lot better if you include Phyrexian Metamorph in you MD.
Wow, good find. I wish I knew that before I played the tournament, the match against Maverick sure would have been a lot easier in that case.
@RaZe: As far as Lodestone Golem goes; I have always found it to be quite underwhelming. I played MUD for a while and was never all that impressed by Golem. It trades with Goyf, Batterskull Delver and Mongoose and is helpless against Knight or Ooze. I guess the Sphere approach is very good against combo-esque decks and hard control decks, but I believe it's going to be very difficult to beat anything else really. With Thalia and Thorns you have too many dead cards against Maverick, Goblins, Elves and Merfolk I feel. Although you might be able to pound through with relentless aggression.
@Finn: Denying Jund, RUG or Esperblade a color seems fairly interesting. Especially with Mangara's and Revokers thrown into the mix. I think I'm going to test 1 or 2 copies and see how it goes. Making good use of redundant copies of Karakas is nice as well.
This thread is providing lots of good input, I'd say keep it up!
Team R&D
Lodestone in Mud is going to be underwhelming when your trying to pump out Wurmcoils, Hellkites, Platinums and Colossuses. And the thing that you really care about are 1cc spells like Stp and Thoughtseizes. Plus without any other taxing cards in the deck it's effect is ignorable with all the Deathrites, Vials and mana dorks. It is not a card you just stick to a deck and expect it to just work.
My build is meant to tackle <insert tri-color mind range deck.dec> except GW Mav and all combo except Elves. And yes the plan is simple aggro against Vial.dec and Elves. And hopefully my Sb can fix all the dead cards. When I figure it out.
What are you going to cut for Dustbowl, though? City of Traitors? I'm not very keen on losing further white sources.
Played a few games yesterday with Mantis' build, except
-1 Jitte
-1 Exalted Angel
+1 Elspeth
+1 Mask of Memory
Sb: -1 Armageddon, +1 Elspeth
Can't say much about Mask of Memory yet (except that I never wanted to fetch it with SFM).
First impression on Elspeth was very good so far. She wins games, especially with her jumping - they get around chump blockers and assassinate enemy Planeswalkers like a boss. She might even deserve a second MD slot since she seems to be that good.
Pulled of the instant Angel combo once yesterday. It was backbreaking enough to force an immediate scoop.
Edit:
@Raze: Since you're already running Metamorph and Blade Splicer, I would definitely try out Restoration Angel for maximum shenanigans. A possible sequence could look like this:
1) Blade Splicer --> golem token
2) Metamorph, copying Splicer --> another golem token
3) Angel, blinking the Metamorph
4) Metamorph comes back, copies Angel
5) New copy blinks Splicer again --> another golem
New result would be three 3/3 Golem tokens with first strike, one Blade Splacer and two Restoration Angels - that's 16 power on the board for 3 cards.
Another possible is fighting S&T - put Angel into play, blink your Metamorph, copy their legendary creature to kill it (they still can activate Griselbrand, though).
I played this at a weekly event on Friday. It was pretty good in a heavy combo meta with my only loss being to Elves. (List might not be exact)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Chrome Mox
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mentor of the Meek
4 Glow Rider
4 Aven Mind Censor
1 Stone Hewer
1 Exhalted Angel
2 Blade Slicer
2 Hero of Bladehold
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
I left my Elspeths at home and couldn't get Restoration Angels, so I played a few different 1/2 of's to test, but never drew them.
Mentor of the Meek is pretty awesome.
Another direction in which to take this deck is to go the "Soldier Tribal" route, with the Soldier core:
Preeminent Captain - A Goblin Lackey / Goblin Warchief rolled into one
Enlistment Officer - A Goblin Ringleader for Soldiers
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - She's a soldier obviously
and any of the following others:
Ballyrush Banneret - Makes your stuff cheaper
Daru Warchief - A decent Lord that makes other soldiers cheaper as well
Captain of the Watch - A Lord that is expensive but can be back-breaking if cheated into play
Jotun Grunt - Good grave hate that is a Soldier
Porcelain Legionnaire - 3/1 body that can be played for 2 mana off a single Sol-land, and even cheaper with Bannerets in play
Veteran Swordsmith - Another Lord
Field Marshal - Another Lord
Then you can play Cavern of Souls without any drawbacks. Using the Soldier core surrounded by the other stuff (Chalice of the Void, Chrome Mox, etc) keeps most of the disruption but gives you faster aggro. Soldiers also usually plays Suppression Field and/or Winter Orb for more disruption as well.
The only problem is that Stoneforge Mystic is not a Soldier. So you either have to cut her or keep her in and just make that concession to a single non-Soldier because Mystic is arguably the best card in this deck.
Here's the list I've been playtesting for more than a year or so with varying degrees of success (I feel as if it needs one more really good soldier to be a borderline Tier 1 deck):
8 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Winter Orb
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Ballyrush Banneret
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Veteran Swordsmith
3 Daru Warchief
3 Captain of the Watch
2 Jötun Grunt
SB: 4 Rest in Peace
SB: 4 Suppression Field
SB: 3 Cursed Totem
SB: 4 Intrepid Hero
The upside of going this route is that it kills much faster - it's almost like Affinity with its speed. The downside is that it doesn't run Stoneforge Mystic, but you could maybe shoe-horn that in if really needed.
Last edited by MGB; 04-03-2013 at 11:25 AM.
@Barook: Those changes look pretty good to me thus far and I will probably test something similar to that. I would probably cut the second Mirran Crusader for the fourth Phyrexian Revoker and leave the Armageddon in the sideboard; Armageddon + Elspeth is so sweet :)!
@saspook: There are quite a few things I don't like about your list but Hero of the Bladehold + Mentor of the Meek is insane... Aven Mindcensor doesn't need to be a 4-of since the effect is redundant and I would not play Exalted Angel and Stonehewer Giant. Glowrider is a bad card as well. Against combo it's too slow if not paired up by other hate and against UW Miracles or Sneak and Show it forces you to overextend and walk right into Pyroclasm or Terminus.
I generally think everyone undervalues flying, it's allows you to win the damage race and gets your equipment through. Redundant SFMs or Thalia/Mangara + Karakas hold the ground for you and allow you to win the damage race.
Team R&D
4 Revokers MD seem excessive unless your meta calls for it. If it doesn't have good targets, it just plain sucks as a creature.
I like the 3 MD + 1SB configuration better.
I agree on the flying thing. It especially shows on Elspeth.
I've settled on a new list after much theorycrafting with the help of everybodys input. Ive tweaked a few jumbers tofit everything I think is needed with a curve that works. But still that is where I am most unsure of.
// Deck: WW Stompy (60)
// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
8 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Wasteland
// Creatures
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Blade Splicer
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Restoration Angel
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
// Artifacts
2 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
3 Thorn of Amethyst
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 Silent Arbiter
SB: 4 Suppression Field
The sideboard reflects the weakness the a number of people have addressed. I do wish I could fit in 4 RIPs somewhere but thats something I hope teating will help ke figure out.
P.S. TheSoldier stompy looks so much fun. I might build that someday.
@Raze: Why 4 Flagstones without any ways to abuse them? Why no MD Jittes?
I feel as if the main advantages of going with the non-Soldier build in the Stompy shell is simply the superiority of Stoneforge Mystic. Mystic is obviously better than any other creature in either build.
But when you compare stuff like Blade Splicer, Lodestone, Metamorph, Mindcensor, and Angel, and other random stuff you can fit in here to the Soldier creature base, I feel that the Soldier creature base is stronger and faster to kill.
Soldiers come out cheaper due to cost-reduction effects, and get pumps from Lords, which makes them more resilient in combat and faster to kill an opponent.
They both obviously play Thalia, but the Soldier build can actually turn her into a 3/2 or bigger creature, and make her uncounterable through Cavern.
@Barook - I completely overlook the Jitte. The 2nd B.skull is supposed to be in that spot. The flagstones are just reminiscent of it being originally a STAX build. It still has its uses to filter out excess land in the deck when the game gets grindy but other than that I doesn't have much use really. I could fit in Dust Bowl. But it could just be a simple plains no problem. If I notice that life points aren't that big of a deal with the deck [which I doubt with A.Tomb] I could try Canopy in it's place instead. Plus having a transformational SB into STAX is still in the books for me.
@MGB - I'm a long Goblins player. And other than Preeminent Captain, I don't see how the Soldier build is superior to it. Even Goblins have included Thalia as a splash and it still isn't a consistent enough throughout the field that people would pick it up again in droves like before. I can't talk about everybody else s build because mine is more emphasized on the Taxing part. How does the soldier build compete against SnT, Miracles, Storm? Not to mention Dredge? [Mind you my build is completely dead against dredge imo]. You maybe right that the Soldier build has a better aggro base. But is that what we need to make the deck better across an evolved metagame? I'm not saying it isn't cuz I don't know. But I doubt it is.
@MGB: Why don't you run Elspeth, Knight-Errant? She's a very good card by herself and she produces soldier tokens.
@saspook: Mentor of the Meek is a pretty sweet find, although I'm still somewhat sceptical since he does nothing by himself.
The combo with Hero of Bladehold looks interesting, but could often require suicide attacking.
Why not combine Elspeth and Mentor instead?
Create token, pay, draw a card - sounds like a pretty sweet engine to grind out your opponent.
@RaZe: Flagstones is a strictly inferior choice if you have no way to abuse it. Not only does it hurt against Price of Progress but you can also Time Walk yourself by having a land come into play tapped if you have 2. The opponent can also Time Walk you on your upkeep if he Wastes the land. It also provides targets for Deathrite Shaman if you draw 2 and can help un colorscrew your opponent with Deathrite + Wasteland.
@Barook: First off, I would like to thank you for your excellent contributions to the thread and archetype in general. I would like to know how my build fared for you? I feel as though the deck requires a bit of experience, practice if you will, before it starts performing well, so if it did poorly I would encourage you not to give up too soon.
@MGB: Merfolk makes giant creatures and has a ton of disruption to beat combo and control alike. Goblins bring tremendous card advantage and selection combined with mana disruption and thereby has a good control and midrange matchups. Elves is blistering fast and very consistent, albeit a bit fragile. Soldier Stompy really doesn't harness any of these advantages. It has in common with the other tribal decks in that it needs a critical number of creatures to resolve and stick before it gets scary but does not harness any of the other outlined advantages. It's slow, doesn't have solid cardadvantage and without Captain of the Watch or Daru Warchief, the creatures really aren't all that impressive. I am with RaZe here and advise you to abandon ship if you want to be competative.
@all:The absolute basics of this archetype should at least include 4 Ancient Tomb, 3 or more Chalices, 2 or more Thalia, 4 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Batterskull, 1 Umezawa's Jitte and a number of Plains. If your proposed list does not meet these criteria, you are either in the wrong thread or you should just include these.
Team R&D
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