You've guessed it, this thread is for the development of a Legacy cascade deck. The best cascade enablers are Red-Green and Blue-Green creatures, so let's start there.
A little insight on Cascade,
The cascade ability is an intringuing one as it has the ability to create card advantage and board presence. Since cascade triggers on cast, it directly puts two spells on the stack, therefore it is very difficult to fully counter. Furthermore, cascade allows cascaded spells to be cast without paying their mana cost, this is often a great way to cheat creatures or spells into play that you have no business casting with ease such as Suspend cards and Split cards. Suspend cards can be cast immediatly without suspension. Cascading into a Split card offers you the choice to play whichever end of the card you wish to, so long as only one of them has a lower mana cost than the cascader.
Waterfalls is a RUGb midrange Aggro-Control deck that utilizes the cascade mechanic to generate card advantage. It's just like Shardless BUG but with more spice.
Waterfalls
Updated list:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Ancestral Visions
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Forest
//SB
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Meddling Mage
3 Duress
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Tundra
Older list (from 2012-2014)
Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Bloodbraid Elf
Spells (22)
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Toxic Deluge
Lands (23)
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest
Sideboard (15)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Swan Song
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
Sideboard Plans
Storm Combo
In: 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Cage, 1 Null Rod, 1 Ooze
Out: 3 Bloodbraid, 3 Decay, 1 Toxic Deluge, 4 Visions
Reanimator
In: 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Ooze, 1 Cage
Out: 3 Bloodbraid, 3 Decay, 4 Bolt
Dredge
In: 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Ooze, 1 Cage
Out: 3 Bloodbraid, 3 Decay
Sneak Show/OmniShow
In: 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Pithing Needle
Out: 3 Bloodbraid, 3 Decay, 4 Bolt
Miracle Control
In: 2 Swan Song, 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle
Out: 3 Wasteland, 1 Toxic Deluge
Burn, UR Delver
In: 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Ooze
Out: 2 Visions, 1 Toxic Deluge
Canadian Threshold, Team America
In: 1 Ooze
Out: 1 FoW
Jund
In: 1 Ooze, 1 Needle
Out: 2 FoW
DnT, Maverick
In: 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Null Rod/Ooze, 1 Engineered Plague
Out: 4 FoW
Patriot, Deathblade
In: 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Null Rod, 1 Ooze
Out: 4 FoW
Elves
In: 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Engineered Plague, 1 Cage
Out: 3 Wasteland
Merfolk
In: 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Engineered Plague, 1 Null Rod, 1 Ooze
Out: 4 FoW
Goblins
In: 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Engineered Plague, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Ooze
Out: 4 FoW
Nic Fit
In: 1 Golgari charm, 1 Ooze, 1 Cage, 1 Needle
Out: 3 Decay, 1 Toxic Deluge
-EDIT 16/10/12: Added a white splash for SB options
-EDIT 24/10/12: Changed the white splash for black
-EDIT 14/11/12: Updated SB
-EDIT 11/03/14: Added Nemesis and SB plans
-EDIT 14/03/14: Updated SB and added Wastelands
-EDIT 23/10/14: Updated Mainboard, SB, and added colored text :)
-EDIT 25/10/16: Added a current list to the primer and left the older stuff. Yay for Leovold!
Last edited by Qweerios; 10-25-2016 at 02:50 PM.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Right off the bat, this deck looks really cool. The idea seems awesome. How well has it worked that you only have 8 "real" creatures? Also have you considered running V. Clique? That card is sweet.
"We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."
I like the idea as well.
The spells you can cascade into are really sweet and have always some value: Bolt to the face - ice to draw a card. Noble hiearch seems the weakest. But I agree Vendilion Clique looks much stronger than the Angel. It's good against Miracles/Combo and in general my favourite T2 play after a hierarch.
Terminus is still ab problem, but Ancestral Vision is a ton of card advantage and the beaters + reach is very potent.
Sidebaord I would split 2 Submerge, 2 Mind-Harness. you have tons of mana to support the harness. Sulfuric Vortexx also works for RUG - should even be better in this deck.
Currently playing: Elves
I have no issues having enough threats. Cascade makes sure I don't run out. The more I play the deck, though, the more I think Ponder would be better than Recall. It would definitely make the deck more consistent. As it is now, it has great explosive potential as well as fizzle potential.
I really like Illusory Angel as a card for this deck. It is definitely better post-board when I side in Crypts or Submerge (T1 Noble, T2 Submerge + Angel). I tried Gitaxian Probe with her but I didn't like it that much, I think Ponder would make her a bit more stable. She is probably sending me in the wrong direction, but it's very hard to resist her. A pair of Cliques and a pair of Oozes is probably better...
I also think a couple of mainboard Jittes couldn't hurt either.
Ahhh, so many good cards, so few deck space...
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
1 Jitte MD, 1 SB was also my idea.
if I play cascase I would certainly not cut the recall. :)
I would play 1-2 ponder and cut maybe 1 creature and 1 Fire-Ice
Also 1 Sylvan Library would be very powerful.
My thoughts:
20 land, 4 Wasteland, no basics (to support vendilion clique). Anyway if they waste it hurts us less, because we have hierarch, ancestral ticking down or recover potential with a powerful cascade. I think playing through wasteland and not around it is better. Another option would be to cut the wasteland but it seems very powerful.
creatures:
4 Shardless
3 Bloodbraid (4 mana is expensive so went down to 3)
3 Goyf (do you need 4 with all the other power - i cut 1 for the jitte)
3 Vendilion Clique (angel is nice and stuff, but this improves combo & control so bad)
4 Hierarch
4 Bolt
3 Fire
1 Jitte
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
4 Ancestral Visions
4 Force of Will
Edit:
A question concerning the SB. Against blue non-combo decks you usually you want to bring in the 4 red-blasts? Makes cascade so much worse. How about replacing it with spell pierce for the combo matchup where you surely side out some cascade stuff and the idea to fight blue decks with stuff worth cascading into.
Currently playing: Elves
Looks interesting.
Have to agree with clique over the angel, it's a flying threat you can cascade into, and a bit of extra disruption, and a good deal of information (or just a free cycle of sorts if you need it to be).
Brainstorm + Cascade seems pretty powerful, too, setting up a cascade or potentially chain of cascades if you have a really good hand, going Bloodbraid into Agent into 'goyf to allow you to just explode onto the battlefield for 5 mana and one card. Or just to make sure when you play your cascade spell, you are more likely to hit the removal spell you need or the ancestral for some extra card advantage.
One problem I've seen with cascade decks that I don't think this has, is cascading into dead cards. It seems like everything you could hit has at least some value, even if it's not the best card to cascade into, you still get a bit of direct damage, a body, a mana dork, or some extra cards. Worst case seems to be hitting a brainstorm, but even then you gain a card and get to fix your hand a bit.
Getting to 3-4 mana quickly so you can start exploiting cascade isn't too bad, I think the format is slow enough, especially with force and a lot of removal to help slow down the faster decks if you need to.
I'm not sure how well the deck mulligans, but it doesn't look like it does particularly well, since cascade is often going to be a bit of a gamble.
Ancestral has an odd problem here, too. If you cascade into it, it's great, three extra cards at no cost to you, but if you have to suspend it, then you probably won't really be rewarded by it, since this isn't looking like a "late game" type of deck.
Wraths seem problematical, cascading into a bunch of nice threats is great, but it's hard to hold back or keep from overextending with cascade, since you won't always know how many creatures you're about to put into play when you cast bloodbraid elf.
It's also a bit vulnerable to stifle, since both the fetches, and cascade itself, can be stifled.
@Catmint,
-Sylvan Library is an interesting card. I agree with you that Library and Jitte deserve MD space as 1-ofs, they have inherent synergy with cascade creatures and definitely don't want multiples.
-I don't know about losing the basics. The deck is very midgame oriented if you don't land a T1 Noble. I haven't been crippled by my manabase so far. I usualy fetch all basics against RUG and I wouldn't do without. Also, I originaly played the deck without Wasteland, and with 2 basics. Adding the Wastes was a massive boon. As far as going all duals goes, I really wouldn't want to be cut from my red source.
-Goyf is too important to cut down. He is the best blocker post-cascade and the biggest creature in the deck. A prime cascade target and T2 play.
-A 3/3 split of Clique and BBE is reasonable. I am just a bit wary of the Legend rule.
-Fire // Ice is the strongest cascade after Recall. Taping a permanent + a cantrip off of a 3/2 haste creature is incredible value and aggressivity. I don't think I would need Ponder anymore without Illusory Angel.
EDIT: I tried 3 Spell Pierce in the SB and they weren't so handy. FoW is the only counterspell I can count on. I chose REBs over pierce because they are counterspells when drawn, and potential removal when cascaded into (worst case scenario). I have 4 in the board so far but I haven't tried them out yet to be honest. Perhaps Izzet Charm?
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
True... the lengend rule sucks when cascading into, but it is a very strong "normal" play. I guess it is worth the risk since if you have a clique in play there are only 2 left in the deck and it only cascades from BBE. Multiple cliques if not cascading into is not a problem: if your clique survives it can kill (no 2nd clique needed) or trade. Clique is just the best card against combo & it puts miracles & batterskulls/Jittes on the bottom.
Duals vs. Basics: No idea - maybe you are right. Cliques are the only UU and I guess the rest of the deck plays out without needing a lot of "same color" spells in the same turn.
Red blast as removal vs RUG is ok. altough still narrow and against UW(x) variants cascading into redblast is very bad whereas cascading into creatures/draw is nuts. Feel like you are giving away cascade advantage vs. UWx if you board red-blasts. My thought was the combo matchup: -4 Shardless +4 Spell pierce. You then have 8 counterspells, 3 Vendilion Clique and a fast clock. Bloodbraid and Visions are still kind of bad - but T1 Visions can be relevant and you only tap out for BBE if you win that turn or they can't win next turn I guess. However if you have neither Red-blast or Spell Pierce versus Counter-top Miracles I would sideboard 2 Krosan Grip and not 2 Ancient Grudge.
Concerning T2 play: I used to looooove NO Rug with T1 7 acceleration slots & 3-4 Clique for Turn 2. Unfortunately GSZ or more manadorks cannot be supported.
Now in this deck there are 8 T1 plays: Suspend Visions or Manadork and for Turn 2 (if only 2 mana available) 3 Goyf, 1 Jitte or 1 Sylvan Library. Question is if you have enough Turn 2 Power with 2 mana" if you run 3 Goyfs. The thing is that if you have 3 mana Turn 2 I guess you prefer to shardless or Vendilion Clique and Goyf would be stuck in your hand. Also for 50% of my turn 1 plays I am not in a "super hurry" to play out my threats because there is a vision to come so I can bolt/fire something or ice-cantrip down their land which has a lot of value with a vision in play. It still might be right to run 3 Goyfs but not for the worry of not having enough big creatures. The deck has a lot of firepower. Maverick has bigger creatures anyway, but Mind Harness/ Submerge + overwhelming have to beat Ooze & Night.
Currently playing: Elves
I feel as though this deck requires Jace to set up some of the more powerful Cascades.
Previously this deck also had Ponder to set up Cascade.
What I mean is that Jace is good on an empty board: genius even. But in the weakest colors for removal (I.e. no swords or decay) we can't always have answers to fatties swarms other walkers like Elspeth or Sorin or even CounterTop strategies (reveal Jace to counter Jace), especially since we can't be as counter heavy as Delver decks due to cascade fizzle.Originally Posted by catmint
Edit: Now that I think bout it a fourth color could enable the use of Jace.
Edit2: Really Kindle spellchecker? It's "color" not ****ing "Colorado"!
Last edited by EpicLevelCommoner; 11-07-2012 at 01:02 PM.
It's probably terrible, but you could just go nuts and go for 4 City of Brass, 4 Birds of Paradise and get the best of all worlds. Add in Stoneforge/Jitte/Batterskull & some Cabal Therapies and whatever else you can get from splashing every color and see what happens.
This may sound crazy but now that I play with deathrite, 20 colored lands and a couple decays, my manabase has been more stable than when I splashed white for SB options only and played Hierarch. Deathrite brings so much disruption, reach, and can actually add red mana! When you pack 4 deathrites, 2 oozes, and 2 or 3 decays, goyfs and knights are a joke.
Also, I will explain my reasoning behind the rejection of a second jace when I get home.
Last edited by Qweerios; 11-08-2012 at 10:12 PM.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
So I tried out a build with black and I have to agree with Qweerios that it is overall a much better build. I have to be careful about my excitement because my usual quick testing is just ~15 random matches on mws and there are soo many bad players and/or games are not taken seriously on the other side.
However how it played out was very nice. I played with shaman already a lot in BUG and learned to appreciate him. Didn't miss Exhalted as much as expected and 2 to the face make also for some damage.
Concrning the mabase I went a much more conservative route. If a deck can play so many powerfuls spells one should make sure you should be able to cast them. Shaman making red is awsome, but you still need to make the land drops to win consistantly I feel.
So my changes:
1) Cutting basics: Sure there are the obvious downsides against dedicated non-basic hate/recusions but there will be way to many awkward situations with black duals in G1 and especially post board where you want to bring play 4 abrupt decay against the best stifle/wasteland deck in the format. You might argue cutting basics weakens the manbase but I don't think that's completely true. If you go for basics you might not be able to play optimally in the process of doing so (screwing yourself) and then your first dual will be wasted for sure hurting you just as much as an early waste. Sure there will be also the situations where you just want this 2 lands in play, but in this deck I think the factor not beeing able to have all the colors early hurts much more. i.e: having 3 basics casting a goyf leaving either red or blue for brainstorm or bolt open instead of leaving a volcanic open. It reminds me of NO RUG where people also tried basics but it just played out much better with duals.
2) cutting basics you need to play "through" wastelands instead of "around them". Obviously just my personal stupid wording , but what I mean with that is upping the land count - making sure you don't miss land drops. I did this a lot with the non-basic BUG control running Hmyn to tourach back in the days.
3) cutting wastelands Not having wastelands you miss out on the opportunity to randomly win with a screw, but often when I won like this I could also just have made my landdrops and cast unfair stuff. So I agree with TKdodo that in a midrange/ramp deck like this you don't necessarily need/want to waste the opponent. The situations where killing the opponents maze of it, academy ruins, Karakas or whatever will surely come, but the deck is equiped to win despite the utilitiy these lands provide to the opponent.
So I started testing with 23 colorful lands (duals & fetches) & 4 deathrite shaman. I still expect to get screwed against RUG sometimes, but in general I feel this is a configuration you make sure to play your 3 & 4 drops when they still matter. Also going late with shaman and drawing a lot of cards there is always something to do with the lands I feel.
3) Not having wasteland, I increased the fetchland count to make deathrite really work.
Current configuration
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Taiga
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
Maybe I went over the top with this and it can be 22 lands with 2 Ponder, but I am pretty convinced making sure you cast all this super sweet spells should be priority #1.
Other experiences about black:
My biggest concerns with Waterfalls were:
- Loosings to RUG Daze & Spell Pierce casting removal on their threats / dealing with Goyf: (adressed by Decay)
- Loosing to combo (adressed by discard)
- Loosing to counterbalance (adressed by decay and discard)
So the SB I tested
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Envelop (over discard spot 7-8; Still nuts vs. combo but also supergood against miracles)
4 Abrupt decay (can see runnin 1-2 maindeck like qweerios)
3 Surgical Extraion
I also cut down to 2 Vendilion Clique maindeck. It was indeed awkward at times having multiples but especially clunky with all the other 8 3-4 cmc cards. With black combo is also much less of a concern.
Currently playing: Elves
Guys if you are splashing black for 3 Decays md (which is worth it imho) why don't you play Tourach as well? I'm not running Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize because obviously they are bad cascade flips, but flipping a Hymn anytime from turn 2 to 4 seems gamebreaking.
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
Counterbalance has been very solid against combo and control: even against midrange has been good to the point that I'm contemplating moving it to the main deck.
I know that it seems strange with all the abrupt decay decks flying around, but they use it on the CB then they don't kill a goyf, which is fine.
If they don't, however, CB can lock them out off the game.
How can I say: I always loved aggro CB :-)
Ignorance is strength
I've found using it to be quite fun too. You really do want to jam Cascade guys quickly to gain an advantage and CounterTop is a great way to disrupt considering the spectrum of casting costs in the deck.
I had this together for a while and loved playing it. Ended up changing it to Shardless Bug for a bit, but just through something together last night as cascading is too much fun. The maindeck is a bit of an experiment, if anyone has any ideas, throw them at me. The spirit guides look weird, but they've been working like a charm. It's the sideboard I need help with. I always lose to a goblins player at my LGS, I'll be playing a small tourney tomorrow, what cards should I play? Pyroclasm? Or I guess whipflare is better...help is appreciated.
Maindeck:
4x Shardless Agent
4x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Deathrite Shaman (maybe should be BoP instead?)
4x Brainstorm
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Force of Will
4x Ancestral Vision
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Wooded Foothills
4x Wasteland
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical Island
1x Taiga
1x Underground Sea
Since I play 4 lightning bolt, 2 fire // ice and 2 grim lavamancer main deck I've got less problems with aggro decks and I need less cards in side.
In your case I'd play a combination of engineered plague and pyroclasm: the former especially seems sweet in your deck since you have 8 ways (4 shaman and 4 guides) to cast it on turn 2, I'd play 3.
Regarding the guides: I think that in your deck elvish spirit guides are better than simians because they help you cast more cards when you are manascrewed (goyf, DRS, agent, BBE) while the latter helps only in casting bolts and BBE. However I can see an argument if you play REB in side, though in this case maybe I'd try a 2/2 split.
DRS is a better card than BoP and the main reason to splash Black, so I would keep them in.
Ignorance is strength
Here's my list.
1 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Bloodbraid Elf
#60
Sideboard:
1 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Swan Song
4 Thoughtseize
2 Engineered Plague
#15
I've taken it to 3 tournaments and the results have been okay vs fair decks, but I'm struggling vs combo. I've recently moved 2 Vendilion Clique from SB to main and updated my sideboard to address reanimator, omnitell and sneak attack, hope it works out. Used to have Engineered Explosives in the SB, but the dissynergy with cascade made me remove them in favor of anticombo.
Feedback appreciated.
I don't see the point in playing red if you're not playing bloodbraid
Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.
Ignorance is strength
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