Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

[hovercraft]

I need Jitte as there are 2-3 burn decks commonly in my meta. And I'm not saying cut the flusterstorms, im just saying maybe you can afford to cut the Swan Songs. You still have 4 Forces, 2 Izzet charm, 2 flusterstorm and 4 thoughseize for combo decks. You could also cut 1 thoughtseize and 1 swan song instead

[anwei]

In the past, I've really liked Jace and Jitte as maindeck options for strategic versatility. Jitte obviously wouldn't fit the maindeck blue-card slot very well, though it makes Strix much more attractive. Having lots of midrangey value guys can put you in the awkward position of having a big, irrelevant board against 1-2 sizable threats (as you wait to draw Decay or DRS them out). Jitte and Jace both give you a lot of options in these situations, and you're better-able than most to protect Jace with a swarm of cascade guys, can take better advantage of his Brainstorm, etc.

[hobart]

If colored mana is not an issue for you, I think you should run the wastelands. They are too powerful as a answer to utility lands, as well as being a fantastic tempo play when you have a DRS or just some board advantage (which this deck inevitably generates). I don't think this is the right deck for Creeping Tar Pit. It is a tempo loss to play it and it is a tapout situation when it attacks. I feel like we usually have too many spells to cast to tapout for just an attack.

[hovercraft]

If colored mana is not an issue for you, I think you should run the wastelands. They are too powerful as a answer to utility lands, as well as being a fantastic tempo play when you have a DRS or just some board advantage (which this deck inevitably generates). I don't think this is the right deck for Creeping Tar Pit. It is a tempo loss to play it and it is a tapout situation when it attacks. I feel like we usually have too many spells to cast to tapout for just an attack.

I think I'll try to fit at least 2 Wastelands in

[Qweerios]

I agree that Creeping Tar Pit doesn't make the cut. I need to have the Bayou available and Wasteland is always better.

On the topic of Jitte, how about this approach:

-Make Goyf blue by replacing him with TNN
-Ditch Deluge for the 4th Decay
-Replace Izzet Charms with Sylvan Library and Jitte.

However, TNN requires 2 blue mana and slows the deck down quite a bit. Once on the battlefield though, TNN is way more resilient and has more reach than a Goyf. Losing Goyf also makes Shardless Agent's cascades more reliable as there would be less variety to cascade into.

[hovercraft]

I dont like TNN in here since Shardless cant cascade into it. I know you said this was an advantage, but I think it's the opposite. Flooding the field with 2 creatures is super strong. It also means anytime you cascade with shardless and you hit TNN he goes to the bottom of your deck where he cant help you unless you can shuffle

[Qweerios]

Cutting 4 two-drops for 4 three-drops increases the overall chances of a Shardless cascade into Visions from 16% to 18.18%. This is a net amelioration I wouldn't dismiss. Besides, bloodbraid's cascade quality goes up since that goyf you would cascade into is now a Nemesis.

Adopting nemesis diminishes the need for answers to opposing Nemesis. The deck becomes even better in the long run and our opponent's removal spells have very little impact on our main threats.

The deck would also become more blue centric with a higher blue count and a bigger emphasis on blue mana.

As much as I like goyf and his superior mana cost, I dislike how he forces us into including subpar cards (Izzet Charm) in order to support FoW.

Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2

[Qweerios]

Now that I think about it... isn't Dimir Charm absolutely amazing right now? Izzet Charm is nothing compared to Dimir Charm in a metagame filled with Treasure Cruises, Miracles, and Elves... We all know how good the card is against Elves but a hard counter against any miracle trigger or Council's Judgment can go pretty far. Against all the midrange decks packing Treasure Cruise, Dimir Charm is simply great, it even doubles up as removal for DRS, SFM, Pyromancer, Swiftspear, and unflipped Delvers. It kills every creature in Burn and counters Spikes, Chains, Rift Bolts.

[hovercraft]

yeah I hadn't even thought of Dimir Charm. Definitely seems strong

[Qweerios]

If anybody is interested in some promising results, I spent last Saturday grinding out Legacy tournaments. Here is a short report of my two tournaments:


4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

4 Ancestral Vision
1 Toxic Deluge

1 Sylvan Library

2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
//SB
4 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
2 Swan Song
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage


My friend decided to choke on the first event so I was missing 2 Goyfs at the beginning of the first tournament. I replaced them with a 3rd Nemesis and the Library.

Monthly Legacy, 25-ish players - Swiss rounds

R1 against MUD: 2-0

G1 is close but I fight my way through with value and manage to deal with all the Golems, Trinispheres and Chalices.

SB: -2 BBE, +1 Null Rod, +1 Grudge

G2 I am losing to 2 Lodestone and a Trini but I luckily cascade into a Null Rod, Decay Trini EoT, and play BBE into Shardless into Bolt.
Overall I was lucky I didn't see any Wurmcoils. This matchup isn't favorable but at least MUD highly suffers from variance.

R2 against DnT: 2-0

G1 my opponent mulls to 4 and curves out with Vial -> Mom -> Crusader. I deal with the Mom but the Crusader stalls for a bit until I find a Nemesis and overwhelm the board.

SB: -4 FoW, +1 Jitte, +1 Plague, +1 Grudge, +1 Golgari Charm

G2 he goes for T1 Mom -> SFM -> Batterskull to which I have no answers. I land a T3 Engineered Plague and eventually cascade into Ancient Grudge for BSkull. His hand is filled with Mom, Thalia, and Mangara so I easily take it from there.

R3 against Miracles with SFM: 2-0

G1 I cascade into AV and overwhelm the board facing a BSkull and a Top. I eventually Decay the BSkull and double FoW two Terminus for lethal.

SB: -4 Bolt, -1 Deluge, +2 Swan Song, +1 Needle, +1 Null Rod, +1 Grudge.

G2 I suspend AV and cascade into another the turn before the suspended one resolved. I drowned my opponent in BBE and let entreat resolve as I have lethal with 2 DRS on the board.

R4 against UR Burn: 1-2

G1 I get double Goyf online and barely win the race.

SB: -4 AV, -1 Deluge, +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Swan Song, +1 Jitte.

G2 I take 2 Guides into 2 Fireblast after I managed to get Nemesis with Jitte online with a Flusterstorm backup at 4 life. The 2nd Blast was too much to handle

G3 I get Priced into double Fireblast and I have no chance.

R5 against BG Hex-Depths: 0-2 (opponent refuses to ID)

G1 my opponent opens up with Urborg into Depths + Hexmage and I don't have FoW.

SB: -3 BBE, -3 Decay, -4 AV, +4 Thoughtseize, +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Swan Song, +1 Plague, +1 Needle

G2 I lose to Petal + Crop Rotation in response to my Wasteland on Depths with a Stage and Urborg already in play. My counters had been Thoughtseized away.

This matchup is atrocious and I choose to live with that.

Top 8

Quarter-finals against Elves: 2-0

G1 my opponent mulls to 5 and I cascade into lots of spot removal and I counter his only NO.

SB: -2 Nemesis, -2 Wasteland, +1 Charm, +1 Plague, +1 Jitte, +1 Cage

G2 I have double FoW for the 2 NO and I cast and cascade into 2 Bolts and 3 Decays.

Split Top4 as I am running late for my next tournament and everybody wants to go home anyway. I quickly make some last minute changes to my SB in anticipation of Goyf #3-4 and based on the results of this tournament:


4 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Swan Song
2 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte


I replaced the 4 Thoughtseize with 4 Duress because being able to discard a creature is much less relevant than losing 2 life. At least Duress doubles up as a SB card against another one of my worst matchups (Burn). I swapped out Null Rod for a 2nd Needle because I felt like I needed additional hate against Sneak attack now that I no longer have Thoughtseize for creatures. I replaced EPlague by a 2nd Golgari Charm because Charm is better against Nemesis and more accessible through Cascade than EPlague. Unfortunately for me, my friend forgot my two Goyfs so the maindeck remains the same.

GPT New Jersey 9 players - Swiss
Because we had a 9th player, we had to play 5 rounds with a cut to top4. Long night ahead.

R1 against UWR Delver: 0-2

G1 I run a Goyf into Daze and never draw any other threats. I die to 3 Wastelands, a Treasure Cruise and SFM -> BSkull.

SB: -4 FoW, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Grudge, +1 Jitte

G2 we trade threats and removal and I eventually BBE -> AV that my opponent Misdirects to himself. I take 3 Wastelands and lose to a BSkull-equiped TNN.

R2 against Burn: 2-1

G1 I Deluge a double Guide + Grim board and stabilize with a DRS and a Goyf.

SB: -1 Tar Pit, -1 Library, -1 Deluge, -4 Visions, +4 Duress, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Jitte

G2 I get Priced for 6 into Fireblast after a 2 Goblin Guide start and a Searing Blaze on my DRS.

G3 I cast lots of Duress and race with a Goyf. My opponent is holding a Fireblast with 3 Lands in play and draws a Rift Bolt while I am at 7 life. He suspends it to play around the Flusterstorm I am holding but I draw into Brainstorm the following turn and cast brainstorm -> Flusterstorm and counter a burn spell anyway.

R3 against Miracles: 2-0

G1 I get lots of creatures on the board, Bolt 2 Jaces, and FoW a couple of Terminus for the win. Tar Pit swung for lethal.

SB: -1 Deluge, -1 Bolt, -2 Wasteland, +2 Swan Song, +2 Needle

G2 I open up with Needle on Top and cascade into a DRS. My opponent EE's for 1 destroying Needle and DRS. I grind through a couple of StP, Snaps, and I eventually FoW a Terminus. I have a Nemesis in play and my opponent is at 9 life and I'm at 25. He entreats for 3 angels and I draw a Bolt that swings the race in my favor.

R4 against Elves: 2-0

G1 I cascade into AV and cast lots of removal. I managed to FoW both his NO and won with DRS.

SB: -3 BBE, -1 Library, -2 Wasteland, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Swan Song, +1 Jitte, +1 Cage

G2 my opponent keeps a slow hand and Goyf goes all the way with 3 Bolts.

R5 against Manaless Dredge: 2-1

G1 I keep a removal hand and concede after half his deck was dredged and I had nothing in play.

SB: -2 Wasteland, -1 Library, -3 BBE, +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Swan Song, +1 Jitte, +1 Cage

G2 I Brainstorm into Cage and he has no outs.

G3 I open with Cage and he has no outs

Top 4

Semi-finals against Manaless Dredge with FoW: 2-0

G1 I brainstorm into 2 DRS and slowly grind him to eventually Decay one of my DRS when the 3rd Bridge hit the GY.

SB: -2 Wasteland, -1 Library, -3 BBE, +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Swan Song, +1 Jitte, +1 Cage

G2 I open with a DRS and eventually find a 2nd one. I grind him out while I beat with a Goyf and end the game with 2 Bolts to the face.

Finals against UWR Delver (same as R1): 2-1

G1 I open with DRS and my opponent keeps a one-lander with Delver. I Waste and Bolt him on my turn. He never recovered.

SB: -4 FoW, 2 Golgari Charm, +1 Grudge, +1 Jitte

G2 is long and grindy. At one point I set up a T4 BBE cascade into AV with an EoT Brainstorm then my opponent reveals a Misdirection from his Delver trigger. This forces me to jump through hoops and I eventually lose to 2 Nemesis as I am digging for a Charm or a Deluge with Library and never find one.

G3 is another long and grindy match but I manage to resolve a suspended AV and find Grudge for BSkull. In the end I find a Golgari Charm to wrath his board and Jitte + Nemesis goes all the way.

In the end I finally won my two byes for Jersey and I was really impressed with the deck. It is very consistent against Elves and Miracles as it is intended and the deck is very powerful in a fair metagame. Treasure Cruise definitely gives AV a run for its money. Cascade is such a powerful mechanic and most definitely should not be underestimated. With that said, I will probably represent Waterfalls at the GP.

Observations:

-Swan Song was never used and I never wanted to side it in. Going forward I will replace them with either Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Envelop, or Dimir Charm.
-Null Rod is probably better than the 2nd Needle even though Needle is one of my few hate cards against Dark Depths combo, Sneak Attack, and Planeswalkers.
-Duress is strictly superior to Thoughtseize as a SB card when most of our SB should be dedicated to Storm, SnT, Reanimator, and Burn decks.
-Sylvan Library has proven its worth as a maindeck card. I will definitely favor the single Library over BBE.
-Creeping Tar Pit felt weak and having lands come into play tapped was cumbersome. Wasteland, however, played an important role so I will revert back to 3 Wastelands and drop Tar Pit.
-The fetchland combination may not be optimal but that's an entirely different topic with too many components for me to elaborate on right now.

[TLK]

I really like your list, and it seems to perform really well against most of the top decks.

When you obtain the other 2 Goyfs, what will be replaced in the main to make room?

[Qweerios]

1 BBE and 1 Nemesis will have to go. I will definitely miss the 3rd BBE.

Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2

[hovercraft]

Nice Results! Thanks for the write up

[kingtk3]

1 BBE and 1 Nemesis will have to go. I will definitely miss the 3rd BBE.

Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2

I played a split of 3 BBE, 3 Goyf and 2 TNN with great satisfaction: I advise you to try the same before cutting the third BBE for the fourth goyf.

[Qweerios]

I don't think you can compare BBE to the 4th Goyf, or even the 4th Decay for that matter. Legacy-defining staples don't really compete with 4CMC uncommons unless budget is an issue or whatever snowflake reason you can muster.

On a different note, I discussed the manabase with a friend after going 2-2 in a weekly tournament. The issue with this deck's landbase is the same as with Deathblade where you have to choose between Basic lands or Wastelands. Even though we can use Wasteland to our advantage, more than one Wasteland from our opponent on our fragile manabase is often enough to heavily cripple us. Considering that my first two rounds were against Blood Moon and Back to Basics, I definitely appreciated the basic lands there and they directly affected the results. The occasional blowout you get from Wasteland is unfortunately not worth the more common blowout Wasteland deals to this deck. Against PFire decks, 4 Goyfs and 2 TNN is sufficient to power through it. As for Dark Depths, Lands, and decks like 12-Post, I guess I'll have to live with it...

So far, Toxic Deluge has been available within the first 3 turns of every game 1 I played against TNN decks. I think luck was on my side because otherwise I am forced to swarm the board and go over the top. Creeping Tar Pit is a great way to counteract Nemesis but it is also very scarce. I think I was also incredibly lucky I didn't face more DnT decks with T1 Mom over the past few weeks either. I think adding a 2nd Deluge to the main would strengthen some of our weaknesses and free up SB space by dismissing Golgari Charm.

Any opinions on Baleful Strix vs. Nemesis? I personally like how Strix blocks Delver and cantrips. This leads to better synergy with Toxic Deluge and allows me to re-incorporate Engineered Plague as a form of TNN hate card. Having more artifacts to pump Goyf is good news as well and it also lowers the curve. Of course Strix isn't nearly as aggressive as TNN but it still a pain to deal with. I often find TNN to be the card I want the least in lots of matchups but that I cannot afford to side out because of the blue count. At least Strix allows me to sift through my deck when TNN isn't particularly relevant.

[hovercraft]

I think he means, the point of the deck is card advantage through cascading, so cutting down to 2 BBE seems counter-intuitive. I still play 4 BBE in my list (0TNN).

On Strix, I usually keep 1 or 2 in the SB for sneak and show matchups

[Qweerios]

What do you cut for the 2 additional BBE? Library? Bolt? Decay? Deluge? I'd love to play 4 BBE but the format simply doesn't allow me to. I value all the non-blue creatures more and the sheer existence of a card like Nemesis necessitates mainboard answers. The best one I've got to offer is Toxic Deluge. BBE is also one of the cards I tend to side out the most.

No offense but Strix is absolutely worthless against SnT. I playtested against Sneak Show with 4 Flusterstorms, 4 Duress, and 1 Pithing Needle out of the board and the matchup is still shaky. I am currently trying 4 Thoughtseize instead of the 4 Flusterstorms for a whopping 8 discard spells against combo postboard.

EDIT: I just looked up an interesting tech from a Shardless BUG Decklist. 1 Savannah and 4 Meddling Mages out of the board sounds amazing.

[Qweerios]

I have tested various configurations lately ranging from a more black heavy list to punishing fire. So far I've settled on a 5 color list for Meddling Mage in the sideboard. Treasure Cruise replaced Sylvan Library and fixed the blue count conundrum.

Does anybody have some interesting techs against burn and ur burn? I thought about Zuran Orb but I don't think it is that good against Delver. Dragon Scale sounds even worst. Maybe Timely Reinforcement would be good. So far I have Jitte and Ooze to gain life in addition to DRS.

Here's what I have settled on:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

4 Ancestral Vision
2 Treasure Cruise
2 Toxic Deluge

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
//SB
4 Meddling Mage
4 Duress
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Scavenging Ooze

[Plm]

I have not tested your list but I wonder about a few things :

The low creature count, the deluge maindeck, the lack of wasteland, the 4th decay.

Why no charm ? dimir or izzet ? they do nice things, are nice to cascade into and fix the blue count.

How is tom cruise doing? without mass cantrip and with deathrite is it reliably castable ?

I liked having nemesis as a 2 of.

Will try this configuration hopefully this week end, otherwise next Thursday with my playgroup.

Thank for keeping the flame alive.

[hovercraft]

I feel like Dig through time might be stronger than TC in waterfalls. Digging for that cascade spell or key removal