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Thread: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

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    Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)



    You've guessed it, this thread is for the development of a Legacy cascade deck. The best cascade enablers are Red-Green and Blue-Green creatures, so let's start there.

    A little insight on Cascade,

    The cascade ability is an intringuing one as it has the ability to create card advantage and board presence. Since cascade triggers on cast, it directly puts two spells on the stack, therefore it is very difficult to fully counter. Furthermore, cascade allows cascaded spells to be cast without paying their mana cost, this is often a great way to cheat creatures or spells into play that you have no business casting with ease such as Suspend cards and Split cards. Suspend cards can be cast immediatly without suspension. Cascading into a Split card offers you the choice to play whichever end of the card you wish to, so long as only one of them has a lower mana cost than the cascader.

    Waterfalls is a RUGb midrange Aggro-Control deck that utilizes the cascade mechanic to generate card advantage. It's just like Shardless BUG but with more spice.

    Waterfalls
    Updated list:

    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Shardless Agent
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    2 Bloodbraid Elf

    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Abrupt Decay

    3 Thoughtseize
    3 Ancestral Visions

    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    3 Wasteland
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Wooded Foothills
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Taiga
    1 Badlands
    1 Island
    1 Forest
    //SB
    2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    3 Meddling Mage
    3 Duress
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Rakdos Charm
    1 Golgari Charm
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Tundra


    Older list (from 2012-2014)

    Creatures (15)
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Shardless Agent
    3 Bloodbraid Elf

    Spells (22)
    3 Abrupt Decay
    2 Izzet Charm
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will

    4 Ancestral Vision
    1 Toxic Deluge

    Lands (23)
    3 Wasteland
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Bayou
    1 Taiga
    1 Island
    1 Forest

    Sideboard (15)
    4 Thoughtseize
    2 Swan Song
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Golgari Charm
    1 Engineered Plague
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Null Rod


    Sideboard Plans

    Storm Combo
    In: 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Cage, 1 Null Rod, 1 Ooze
    Out: 3 Bloodbraid, 3 Decay, 1 Toxic Deluge, 4 Visions

    Reanimator
    In: 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Ooze, 1 Cage
    Out: 3 Bloodbraid, 3 Decay, 4 Bolt

    Dredge
    In: 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Ooze, 1 Cage
    Out: 3 Bloodbraid, 3 Decay

    Sneak Show/OmniShow
    In: 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Pithing Needle
    Out: 3 Bloodbraid, 3 Decay, 4 Bolt

    Miracle Control
    In: 2 Swan Song, 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle
    Out: 3 Wasteland, 1 Toxic Deluge

    Burn, UR Delver
    In: 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Ooze
    Out: 2 Visions, 1 Toxic Deluge

    Canadian Threshold, Team America
    In: 1 Ooze
    Out: 1 FoW

    Jund
    In: 1 Ooze, 1 Needle
    Out: 2 FoW

    DnT, Maverick
    In: 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Null Rod/Ooze, 1 Engineered Plague
    Out: 4 FoW

    Patriot, Deathblade
    In: 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Null Rod, 1 Ooze
    Out: 4 FoW

    Elves
    In: 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Engineered Plague, 1 Cage
    Out: 3 Wasteland

    Merfolk
    In: 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Engineered Plague, 1 Null Rod, 1 Ooze
    Out: 4 FoW

    Goblins
    In: 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Engineered Plague, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Ooze
    Out: 4 FoW

    Nic Fit
    In: 1 Golgari charm, 1 Ooze, 1 Cage, 1 Needle
    Out: 3 Decay, 1 Toxic Deluge

    -EDIT 16/10/12: Added a white splash for SB options
    -EDIT 24/10/12: Changed the white splash for black
    -EDIT 14/11/12: Updated SB
    -EDIT 11/03/14: Added Nemesis and SB plans
    -EDIT 14/03/14: Updated SB and added Wastelands
    -EDIT 23/10/14: Updated Mainboard, SB, and added colored text :)
    -EDIT 25/10/16: Added a current list to the primer and left the older stuff. Yay for Leovold!
    Last edited by Qweerios; 10-25-2016 at 02:50 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Right off the bat, this deck looks really cool. The idea seems awesome. How well has it worked that you only have 8 "real" creatures? Also have you considered running V. Clique? That card is sweet.
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  3. #3
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    I like the idea as well.

    The spells you can cascade into are really sweet and have always some value: Bolt to the face - ice to draw a card. Noble hiearch seems the weakest. But I agree Vendilion Clique looks much stronger than the Angel. It's good against Miracles/Combo and in general my favourite T2 play after a hierarch.

    Terminus is still ab problem, but Ancestral Vision is a ton of card advantage and the beaters + reach is very potent.

    Sidebaord I would split 2 Submerge, 2 Mind-Harness. you have tons of mana to support the harness. Sulfuric Vortexx also works for RUG - should even be better in this deck.
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    I have no issues having enough threats. Cascade makes sure I don't run out. The more I play the deck, though, the more I think Ponder would be better than Recall. It would definitely make the deck more consistent. As it is now, it has great explosive potential as well as fizzle potential.

    I really like Illusory Angel as a card for this deck. It is definitely better post-board when I side in Crypts or Submerge (T1 Noble, T2 Submerge + Angel). I tried Gitaxian Probe with her but I didn't like it that much, I think Ponder would make her a bit more stable. She is probably sending me in the wrong direction, but it's very hard to resist her. A pair of Cliques and a pair of Oozes is probably better...

    I also think a couple of mainboard Jittes couldn't hurt either.

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  5. #5
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    1 Jitte MD, 1 SB was also my idea.
    if I play cascase I would certainly not cut the recall. :)

    I would play 1-2 ponder and cut maybe 1 creature and 1 Fire-Ice
    Also 1 Sylvan Library would be very powerful.

    My thoughts:

    20 land, 4 Wasteland, no basics (to support vendilion clique). Anyway if they waste it hurts us less, because we have hierarch, ancestral ticking down or recover potential with a powerful cascade. I think playing through wasteland and not around it is better. Another option would be to cut the wasteland but it seems very powerful.

    creatures:
    4 Shardless
    3 Bloodbraid (4 mana is expensive so went down to 3)
    3 Goyf (do you need 4 with all the other power - i cut 1 for the jitte)
    3 Vendilion Clique (angel is nice and stuff, but this improves combo & control so bad)
    4 Hierarch

    4 Bolt
    3 Fire
    1 Jitte

    4 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    1 Sylvan Library
    4 Ancestral Visions

    4 Force of Will

    Edit:
    A question concerning the SB. Against blue non-combo decks you usually you want to bring in the 4 red-blasts? Makes cascade so much worse. How about replacing it with spell pierce for the combo matchup where you surely side out some cascade stuff and the idea to fight blue decks with stuff worth cascading into.
    Currently playing: Elves

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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Looks interesting.
    Have to agree with clique over the angel, it's a flying threat you can cascade into, and a bit of extra disruption, and a good deal of information (or just a free cycle of sorts if you need it to be).

    Brainstorm + Cascade seems pretty powerful, too, setting up a cascade or potentially chain of cascades if you have a really good hand, going Bloodbraid into Agent into 'goyf to allow you to just explode onto the battlefield for 5 mana and one card. Or just to make sure when you play your cascade spell, you are more likely to hit the removal spell you need or the ancestral for some extra card advantage.

    One problem I've seen with cascade decks that I don't think this has, is cascading into dead cards. It seems like everything you could hit has at least some value, even if it's not the best card to cascade into, you still get a bit of direct damage, a body, a mana dork, or some extra cards. Worst case seems to be hitting a brainstorm, but even then you gain a card and get to fix your hand a bit.

    Getting to 3-4 mana quickly so you can start exploiting cascade isn't too bad, I think the format is slow enough, especially with force and a lot of removal to help slow down the faster decks if you need to.

    I'm not sure how well the deck mulligans, but it doesn't look like it does particularly well, since cascade is often going to be a bit of a gamble.

    Ancestral has an odd problem here, too. If you cascade into it, it's great, three extra cards at no cost to you, but if you have to suspend it, then you probably won't really be rewarded by it, since this isn't looking like a "late game" type of deck.

    Wraths seem problematical, cascading into a bunch of nice threats is great, but it's hard to hold back or keep from overextending with cascade, since you won't always know how many creatures you're about to put into play when you cast bloodbraid elf.

    It's also a bit vulnerable to stifle, since both the fetches, and cascade itself, can be stifled.

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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenni View Post
    Ancestral has an odd problem here, too. If you cascade into it, it's great, three extra cards at no cost to you, but if you have to suspend it, then you probably won't really be rewarded by it, since this isn't looking like a "late game" type of deck.

    Turn 1 Suspend has its merits against a lot of decks. Any control deck as well as any dork deck like DnT or Maverick will be kept at bay by the Bolts and Fires long enough for the Recalls to kick in full gear. At least, this is what the testing has proved.

    Wraths seem problematical, cascading into a bunch of nice threats is great, but it's hard to hold back or keep from overextending with cascade, since you won't always know how many creatures you're about to put into play when you cast bloodbraid elf.

    The beauty of cascade is that it might look like you're overextending, but you're not. Whatever hits the board after a Shardless or a BBE is still extra.

    It's also a bit vulnerable to stifle, since both the fetches, and cascade itself, can be stifled.

    They can Stifle my trigger all they want, I will still be left with something and they won't.
    @Catmint,

    -Sylvan Library is an interesting card. I agree with you that Library and Jitte deserve MD space as 1-ofs, they have inherent synergy with cascade creatures and definitely don't want multiples.

    -I don't know about losing the basics. The deck is very midgame oriented if you don't land a T1 Noble. I haven't been crippled by my manabase so far. I usualy fetch all basics against RUG and I wouldn't do without. Also, I originaly played the deck without Wasteland, and with 2 basics. Adding the Wastes was a massive boon. As far as going all duals goes, I really wouldn't want to be cut from my red source.

    -Goyf is too important to cut down. He is the best blocker post-cascade and the biggest creature in the deck. A prime cascade target and T2 play.

    -A 3/3 split of Clique and BBE is reasonable. I am just a bit wary of the Legend rule.

    -Fire // Ice is the strongest cascade after Recall. Taping a permanent + a cantrip off of a 3/2 haste creature is incredible value and aggressivity. I don't think I would need Ponder anymore without Illusory Angel.

    EDIT: I tried 3 Spell Pierce in the SB and they weren't so handy. FoW is the only counterspell I can count on. I chose REBs over pierce because they are counterspells when drawn, and potential removal when cascaded into (worst case scenario). I have 4 in the board so far but I haven't tried them out yet to be honest. Perhaps Izzet Charm?
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  8. #8
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    True... the lengend rule sucks when cascading into, but it is a very strong "normal" play. I guess it is worth the risk since if you have a clique in play there are only 2 left in the deck and it only cascades from BBE. Multiple cliques if not cascading into is not a problem: if your clique survives it can kill (no 2nd clique needed) or trade. Clique is just the best card against combo & it puts miracles & batterskulls/Jittes on the bottom.


    Duals vs. Basics: No idea - maybe you are right. Cliques are the only UU and I guess the rest of the deck plays out without needing a lot of "same color" spells in the same turn.

    Red blast as removal vs RUG is ok. altough still narrow and against UW(x) variants cascading into redblast is very bad whereas cascading into creatures/draw is nuts. Feel like you are giving away cascade advantage vs. UWx if you board red-blasts. My thought was the combo matchup: -4 Shardless +4 Spell pierce. You then have 8 counterspells, 3 Vendilion Clique and a fast clock. Bloodbraid and Visions are still kind of bad - but T1 Visions can be relevant and you only tap out for BBE if you win that turn or they can't win next turn I guess. However if you have neither Red-blast or Spell Pierce versus Counter-top Miracles I would sideboard 2 Krosan Grip and not 2 Ancient Grudge.

    Concerning T2 play: I used to looooove NO Rug with T1 7 acceleration slots & 3-4 Clique for Turn 2. Unfortunately GSZ or more manadorks cannot be supported.
    Now in this deck there are 8 T1 plays: Suspend Visions or Manadork and for Turn 2 (if only 2 mana available) 3 Goyf, 1 Jitte or 1 Sylvan Library. Question is if you have enough Turn 2 Power with 2 mana" if you run 3 Goyfs. The thing is that if you have 3 mana Turn 2 I guess you prefer to shardless or Vendilion Clique and Goyf would be stuck in your hand. Also for 50% of my turn 1 plays I am not in a "super hurry" to play out my threats because there is a vision to come so I can bolt/fire something or ice-cantrip down their land which has a lot of value with a vision in play. It still might be right to run 3 Goyfs but not for the worry of not having enough big creatures. The deck has a lot of firepower. Maverick has bigger creatures anyway, but Mind Harness/ Submerge + overwhelming have to beat Ooze & Night.
    Currently playing: Elves

  9. #9

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    I feel as though this deck requires Jace to set up some of the more powerful Cascades.

    Previously this deck also had Ponder to set up Cascade.

  10. #10

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    If you're struggling with REB, why not try Active Volcano as a potential alternative againt RUG decks? Most RUG lists use only Islands as mana sources, and it kills Delvers dead.

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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Hi guys,

    I toyed with this kind of deck time ago, I'm happy that someone else is interested in this archetype.

    I ran a list fith* Punishing Fires, have you considered it? It is in-color and it can contribute to the insane card advantage the deck provide.

    Also, are you sure that you can cast a Fire//Ice off from a cascade of three/four? Isn't the converted mana cost of the card 4? If, for example, you reveal it with Dark Confidant you lose four life.

    EDIT: * f...ing typing error, I meant "with". I hate this keyboard!
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Quote Originally Posted by gesucca View Post
    Also, are you sure that you can cast a Fire//Ice off from a cascade of three/four? Isn't the converted mana cost of the card 4? If, for example, you reveal it with Dark Confidant you lose four life.
    The converted mana cost of a split card on the stack is the CMC of whichever half is being cast.

    However, in other zones the CMC of it is both the sides, not the sum. So for example, when Dark Confidant reveals one and asks what's the CMC of Fire // Ice, it returns an answer of 2 and 2, so you lose 4 life.

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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper3k View Post
    The converted mana cost of a split card on the stack is the CMC of whichever half is being cast.

    However, in other zones the CMC of it is both the sides, not the sum. So for example, when Dark Confidant reveals one and asks what's the CMC of Fire // Ice, it returns an answer of 2 and 2, so you lose 4 life.
    Ah, ok, understood. Thanks and my apologize for the OT.
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    There was a version of this deck that ran [card] Guided Passage [/card] that did fairly well at open and I didn't see anyone talking about it, thought I would share.
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Here's the latest Guided Passage deck:
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...1&iddeck=62695

    //NAME: Giavellotto ft. Paxxu
    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Wooded Foothills
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    1 Taiga
    4 Grove of the Burnwillows
    1 Island
    1 Forest
    1 Mountain
    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Tarmogoyf
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    2 Trinket Mage
    2 Vendilion Clique
    2 Bloodbraid Elf
    3 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Guided Passage
    4 Force of Will
    4 Punishing Fire
    2 Lightning Bolt
    2 Engineered Explosives
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    //Sideboard
    SB: 2 Flusterstorm
    SB: 2 Pyroblast
    SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
    SB: 1 Krosan Grip
    SB: 2 Submerge
    SB: 3 Counterbalance
    SB: 1 Sensei's Divining Top
    SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
    SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage

    It seems very close to Next Level Thresh with an increased game against Tribal. Seems like it might be good against all the Miracle/Tribal decks right now, but loses a punch against unfair strategies that require heavier countermagic.

    EDIT: Holy crap, just now noticed Counterbalance in the Sideboard. I'm sold!
    Last edited by Koby; 09-28-2012 at 05:01 PM.
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  16. #16

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Izzet Charm is countermagic that it doesn't blow to cascade into.

  17. #17
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Just to clarify a bit on split cards:

    Split cards converted mana cost is the sum of both ends;

    Split cards mana cost is the chosen end's CMC;

    Cascading into a split card allows you to cast any end as long as one of them has a lower CMC than the cascader.

    Woah, I did not know of guided passage. It looks more stable than AV but it won't cascade off a shardless.

    As for pfire, I did play against that deck, and I stomped it... I didn't like how it durdled around and didn't do much.

    Jace is definitely an interesting addition. Brainstorm effects are insane with cascade.
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  18. #18
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Guided Passage really needs Brainstorm AND Jace to be good. Sometimes, you cast Passage and they give you 3 shit cards (yes, I understand the concept that every card in the deck is great to receive off of Passage, but between realism and having spoken to an excellent player who ran this deck, I think we can all agree that this concept is not accurate). You need to be able to Brainstorm those cards away for profit (think Standard Ancestral Recall of JtMS+Squadron Hawks)
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  19. #19
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    The guided passage control deck has a different approach without visions but a more non-linear aggro-control appraoch. LIke NO-RUG but with good lategame cards like bloodbraid, Jace, Punishing Fire & EE instead of Natural Order.

    THe list from this thread has a more linear gamplan which tries to utilize the cascade mechanic as much as possible and to hit face. The gameplan does not require a lot of setup to cascade because you trust in randomness and sometimes settle for damage to the face instead of 3 extra cards. I like it more because I feel visions is very strong against the other blue decks.

    So for this list:

    First thing i thought about when i saw it: "how about punishing fire" - however Fire ice is so much better cascading into and bolt is a very important 1 mana removal I think. Also more grindy stuff does not feel necessary.

    Bloodbraid takes the 3 4cmc slots instead of Jace and is more powerful in this deck I feel because the 3 haste damage fit the gameplan very well. Jace to setup better cascades sounds really like winmore. :) Visions, Sylvan, Jitte & Cascading is a lot of lategame stuff. Maybe Jace in the sideboard... It is just important to handle other lategame stuff that just trumps all our creatures. Batterskull comes to mind but with 8 burn spells and 2 Krosan Grips I feel ok.

    What is however awkard if you have Noble Hierarch & Visions in the opener or if you cascade into hierarch. Question is if rejecting Hierarch is an option. Would need to play more lands, lower the curve and put some ponders in. Ponder is a good card in the early game & to setup cascade. You also don't feel embarrassed cascading into it, but it feels hiearch is powerful enough to take the risk of awkwardness.
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  20. #20
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    Split cards converted mana cost is the sum of both ends;
    This is not true. For example, if you reveal Assault / Battery (costs 1 and 4) for a Counterbalance trigger, you don't get to counter a CMC 5 spell - you counter one that's CMC 1 or CMC 4.

    The reason you take the sum in life loss from Dark Confidant is because when the trigger asks what is the CMC of the card revealed, it gets both sides as answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by MTG Comprehensive Rules
    708.2. In every zone except the stack, split cards have two sets of characteristics and two converted mana costs. As long as a split card is a spell on the stack, only the characteristics of the half being cast exist. The other half’s characteristics are treated as though they didn’t exist.

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