Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hells yes! I remember seeing a Waterfalls list that ran 4 DRS and 1 Bayou along with 2 copies of Boom//Bust sometime last summer. Additionally, pre-Nacatl and BBE banning in Modern, playing 4 BBE and 4 Boom//Bust in a Big Zoo shell was catching on.

Yo Bed Decks, I hear you like Terrageddon...

I think I'll try to build this ipl somehow, although I need to lend a few cards here and there.

[Cire]

Would a Rainbow Waterfall list be viable? 8 5 color lands and DRS?

3 TNN
3 Blood Braid Elf
3 Goyf
4 SFM
4 DRS
4 Shardless Agent

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 City of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
6 Fetch Lands
6 Dual Lands

Obviously a rough list and adding in white is dubious, but it seems possible?

[HSCK]

It's entirely unnecessary. Cascade provides what you want as far as card advantage and Decay and Bolt are removal.

[kingtk3]

I completely agree: you are trading force of will for the stoneforge package, thus weakining your combo matchup (which is the weakest of the matchups) and ading basically nothing, since most of the time you'll have your hand clogged with high CMC cards.

If you want to try the white route I suggest you to drop black interely and cut goyfs, but I advise you from cutting force since this deck is one of the few fair decks that can run the full set main deck without suffering much from the card disadvantage.

In a white version I can see ethersworn canonist doing well even maindeck

[maCHOOga]

So how is this decks matchup against delver variants? My local metagame is infested with insectile aberration. I figure a deck with both lightning bolt and other removal spell (abrupt decay/punishing fire/Izzet charm) has to be good!

Here is my current waterfalls list. I've just picked this deck and usually have legacy decks on a monthly rotation. Here is my current list:

4 deathrite shamans
4 tarmogoyfs
3 bloodbraid elf
4 shardless agent
2 truename nemesis

4 lightning bolts
4 brainstorms
3 Izzet charm (flex spot)
1 Sylvan library
1 domri rade
4 force of will
4 ancestral vision

4 misty rainforest
4 scalding tarn
2 polluted delta
1 forest
1 island
2 tropical island
2 volcanic island
1 taiga
2 underground sea
1 bayou
3 wasteland

Sideboard
2 golgari charm
1 ancient grudge
1 Krosan grip
4 thoughtseize
2 flusterstorm
1 uwezama's jitte
1 graffdigger's cage
2 boom/bust
1 maelstrom pulse

[Megadeus]

I completely agree: you are trading force of will for the stoneforge package, thus weakining your combo matchup (which is the weakest of the matchups) and ading basically nothing, since most of the time you'll have your hand clogged with high CMC cards.

If you want to try the white route I suggest you to drop black interely and cut goyfs, but I advise you from cutting force since this deck is one of the few fair decks that can run the full set main deck without suffering much from the card disadvantage.

In a white version I can see ethersworn canonist doing well even maindeck

Canonist seems poor in a deck with Bloodbraid Elf

[kingtk3]

Canonist seems poor in a deck with Bloodbraid Elf

True: is not maindeck material, maybe I got a little excited. But it's definitely worth in side since you would bring her in against combo where you want that effect as soon as possible and you probably side out bloodbraid anyway because they are too slow.

[maCHOOga]

So I've seen lists running pyro static pillar in the past. What are people's thoughts on the new pyrostatic pillar creature, edilion of the great revel? It's an enchantment, which grows tarmogoyf, more frail to removal, but it can attack! :-)

[kingtk3]

So I've seen lists running pyro static pillar in the past. What are people's thoughts on the new pyrostatic pillar creature, edilion of the great revel? It's an enchantment, which grows tarmogoyf, more frail to removal, but it can attack! :-)

Definitely something to look in, however it bothers me that costs double red (which is not a priority to achive) and that it hoses effectively only storm and elves, but not other combo like reanimator or show and tell variants.

[OCPunisher]

After reading through this thread, it seems like the majority of lists favor Lightning Bolt over Punishing Fire. Why is that?

[Plm]

My feeling about punishing vs bolt is (after trying both) that if you want to play punishing fire, you weaken considerably your manabase.
Playing non blue/non fetchable lands doesn't feel right.

The power of 4 colors build and the power of wasteland are more alluring than recur-able shock and a shitty manabase (look at jund which plays 3 colors 23 lands and only 2 waste, and sometimes has trouble to cast hymn).

Also your hand is always full of gas, so you would rather play your spell than re-buy P.fire again and again.

Anyway that's my 2 cents, if someone sees an other reason, I'm always eager to learn.

[maCHOOga]

My feeling about punishing vs bolt is (after trying both) that if you want to play punishing fire, you weaken considerably your manabase.
Playing non blue/non fetchable lands doesn't feel right.

The power of 4 colors build and the power of wasteland are more alluring than recur-able shock and a shitty manabase (look at jund which plays 3 colors 23 lands and only 2 waste, and sometimes has trouble to cast hymn).

Also your hand is always full of gas, so you would rather play your spell than re-buy P.fire again and again.

Anyway that's my 2 cents, if someone sees an other reason, I'm always eager to learn.

Playing groves reduces the number of wastelands, fetchlands or basics that you can play. Basics are necessary, it helps hedge against being waste-locked and also allows you to be proactive against blood moon.

Also this is not the kind of deck where you're going to slow roll someone to death with punishing fire like lands does. Your lucky if you can do net 1 damage per turn.

[kingtk3]

I've played two small tournaments recently with this list

3 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Fire // Ice
4 Shardless Agent
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Force of Will

SIDE
2 Trygon Predator
1 Pyroclasm
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Counterbalance
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Submerge


In the first tournament pyroclasm and huntemaster were 2 surgical extraction.

I remember that the first tournament went
bye
Elves, 2-0
BUg landstill, 2-0
Elves, 2-1
top4 deathblade, 2-1
split finals with Jund

The second one was
Death and Taxes, 2-1
Bug Delver, 2-0
sneak & show, 1-2
Jund, 1-1 (time went up)
top4 Sneak & Show, 0-2

Sneak & Show seems a poor matchup: even with T1 top, T2 counterbalance you can just loose if the cast Show & tell and you don't have a 3 CC on top.

Since I already play 4 hierarch that gives white mana, I'm contemplating the use of Meddling Mage like some BUG lists already do:

2 Trygon Predator
1 Pyroclasm
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Tundra
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Meddling Mage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Submerge


What do you think?

[maCHOOga]

Has anyone else ran into issues with CounterTop/Micracles? One meta in my area is overflowing with miracles players. In a 4 round tournament, I had to play two rounds against miracles. It seemed pretty abysmal, as I could never apply enough pressure to kill them. At one point counterbalance was counting both my main spell and my cascade spell. Other than abrupt decay, what other silver bullet cards are there against them? I attempted to Krosan grip their counterbalance, and they just happened to have a cmc on top of their deck. I'm playing two sideboard boom/bust which of course I didn't draw and can be countered by counterbalance/terminus anyway. Creeping tar pit, as a spicy one of, seemed very effective against them.

[kingtk3]

I'm quite surprised that you're having troubles with miracle: since the first time I've played the deck miracles has been one of my best matchup (I'm playing the rug version posted above).

That said, it seems most of all that your opponent was very lucky: it's not common to have a top deck of 3cc, nor to have 2 different cc on top in your cc range, which is kind of difficult for them.

My rule of thumb against miracle is to not overextended and put pressure with 2 creatures keeping another 2 in hand, but that's quite standard against them.

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[maCHOOga]

How good has trygon predator been for you?

I think my opponents got lucky. Running into Moat sucks lol.

[kingtk3]

Trygon has been very good for me, but keep in mind that is kind of meta choice: it's main purpose is to keep equipment out of the table and it's stellar against blade decks save patriot, against which still it's good.

It's pro are that it's a repeatable removal that flies.
It's cons are that it's a creature, so it can be removed before dealing with any card.

Sometimes I side them in only because they are flying creatures and I need more gas or blockers, against bug for example.

If you're having trouble with miracle I suggest you to play some pithing needle in the side to fight top, which is the key card for miracles. Extra copies may name jace. Just remember that they don't have card advantage save for a couple of snapcaster (for those who play them) and jace (which don't come early), while you're deck is FULL of value: you have to grind them out!

Against miracle I often side
Out: 2 lavamancer, 4 hierarch, 4 bolt
In: 2 blast, 2 trygon, 2 jace, 3 counterbalance, 1 huntmaster

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[Megadeus]

Ifeel like miracles should be a positive match up. You can apply a bunch of pressure, and you are getting a lot of card advantage. Similar to jund, you can just cast more spells thanks to cascade than what they can deal with.

Also noticed that not many of you are running Thoughtseize. I feel like that could help shore up combo match ups a bit. Cascading into it isn't ideal most of the time, but it isn't the worst

[maCHOOga]

Ifeel like miracles should be a positive match up. You can apply a bunch of pressure, and you are getting a lot of card advantage. Similar to jund, you can just cast more spells thanks to cascade than what they can deal with.

Also noticed that not many of you are running Thoughtseize. I feel like that could help shore up combo match ups a bit. Cascading into it isn't ideal most of the time, but it isn't the worst

I've been running 4 thoughtseize and 2 flusterstorms in my build and it has won 3 matches against various combo decks (1 sneakNshow, 2 ant decks). There's a chance where you can cascade into them, but against combo I usually go down to just shardless agents.

I've also added a 1x maindeck maelstrom pulse as a universal out card for a lot of matchups.

[hobart]

So I was bored and on Cockatrice last night so I decided to throw this list together:

Creatures: 15

4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmagoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Bloodbraid Elf

Spells: 16

4x Ancestral Vision
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Hymn to Tourach

Artifacts: 1

1x Umezawa’s Jitte

Enchantments: 1

1x Sylvan Library

PlanesWalkers: 4
4x Liliana of the Veil

Lands: 23

4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills
2x Underground Sea
3x Bayou
2x Taiga
2x Badlands
2x Tropical Island
2x Wasteland

Sideboard: 15

3x Thoughtseize
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Grafdigger’s Cage
2x Golgari Charm
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Duress
1x Dread of Night
1x Engineered Plague

It's pretty much just the lovechild of Jund and Shardless BUG. I decided to go a bit more on the Jundy side and the blue is just a splash hence the no Force of Wills. I didn't expect to win much but it looked fun. I got to play around 10 matches and won like 9 of them! Most of my opponents were playing very competitive decks, I ran into Sneak and Show, multiple Reanimator, Junk, Jund, Elves!, miracles and some Stoneblade type decks. I think my only match loss was one of the reanimators, and I pretty much crushed all the fair decks (including miracles). So, I'll probably build this and run it in my local just for the lols. Obviously the combo matchup is weak pre board, but with additional discard and some permanent based hate those get a lot better.

This is a bit philosophical, but one inherent advantage we have over combo decks forever is that fair decks are more consistent in what they do. I can win drawing almost any of my spells and lands and turning them sideways. I have to mulligan less and my mulligans are way better. We know exactly what our opponent is trying to do with his combo, hence almost perfect sideboarding. They don't know what kindof hate that we are bringing in, so they have to guess at hate for our hate (and this always slows them down). I play alot of combo myself, but recently I've been on the fair train (with shardless mostly in tourneys) and my combo opponents mull so often and unless their hands are the nuts they just fold to a discard spell and a wasteland.

Anyhow, what do you guys think of this BGRu version?