Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

[Qweerios]

I decided to stay away from the 4th color altogether for reasons pertaining to the manabase. I think Boom // Bust is what Wasteland should be in this deck. It comes down as a devastating surprise and will answer any problematic land. I think we need to accept that we need to devote considerable SB space to storm combo, and that Show n Tell decks will be nightmares. As for any fair/control/aggro based decks out there, I believe our odds are very favorable. Here is the latest RUG version I have played:


Creatures (20)
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells (20)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Boom // Bust
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (20)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle


I think there is no reason not to play 4 FoW main with 7 Cascade dorks and 4 Ancestral Vision, free counterspells are a great way to use card advantage.

[wcm8]

Regarding Noble Hierarch vs. Deathrite Shaman: Does Exalted and the non-conditional nature of its mana-production outweigh the benefits of a 1/2 body, graveyard disruption, access to Red Mana, and (given a small Black splash) reach? I can see the benefits of both mana dorks, but I think Shaman is just so strong that he's not worth passing up if its feasible...

[Zupponn]

3 Pyrostatic Pillar (I saw a deck like this using it in Milwaukee and it seemed good)

And here's that list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=55018
It's nice to be able to give a shoutout to a local player. :)

[Qweerios]

@wcm8,

It all depends on the matchup at hand. Deathrite is overall the better card but the strain it puts on the manabase is not negligible. I prefer staying on 3 colors if I intend on casting double blue-costed cards like Jace and Clique. Delving into a 4th color for Deathrite makes the deck more powerful against the least interactive decks but will surely make you think twice about fetching basic lands. Splashing a 4th color is great against combo and control decks but leaves a bitter taste against aggro and tempo. It is true that the combo matchup isn't at its finest but I consider control and aggro decks conquered and tempo decks to be more of a threat.

What RUG gives me? It gives my deck a much needed chance against Stifle/Wasteland decks.
What RUGb gives me? It gives me additional value against midrange/control (which I already have plenty of), and slightly improves my combo matchup at the cost of a smooth game against tempo.

[.Ix]

@wcm8,

It all depends on the matchup at hand. Deathrite is overall the better card but the strain it puts on the manabase is not negligible. I prefer staying on 3 colors if I intend on casting double blue-costed cards like Jace and Clique. Delving into a 4th color for Deathrite makes the deck more powerful against the least interactive decks but will surely make you think twice about fetching basic lands. Splashing a 4th color is great against combo and control decks but leaves a bitter taste against aggro and tempo. It is true that the combo matchup isn't at its finest but I consider control and aggro decks conquered and tempo decks to be more of a threat.

What RUG gives me? It gives my deck a much needed chance against Stifle/Wasteland decks.
What RUGb gives me? It gives me additional value against midrange/control (which I already have plenty of), and slightly improves my combo matchup at the cost of a smooth game against tempo.

Yes, Deathrite's mana production being conditional can be awful sometimes. Turn 1 DRS, turn 2 Shardless will mean you have to play at least 2 fetchlands to make 4 mana on turn 3. Making 4 mana in one turn is often a prerequisite to beating people.

Regarding the fourth color: I think White gives us very strong options against non interactive decks in game 2. Rest in Peace destroys graveyard decks and Oblivion Ring beats Show and Tell while working as additional removal against cards we don't like to see (Goyf, Jace). Pyro pillar is nice tech against Storm and Elves, and it's perfect because I was getting less and less impressed with the CB lock against these decks. And let's not forget how relevant Stoneforge is against most decks at any point in the game.

How has lavamancer been for you? I was thinking of running it myself. Seems better than punishing fire.

[anwei]

What RUG gives me? It gives my deck a much needed chance against Stifle/Wasteland decks.
What RUGb gives me? It gives me additional value against midrange/control (which I already have plenty of), and slightly improves my combo matchup at the cost of a smooth game against tempo.

I'm wondering how people have addressed the RUG Delver matchup. I ran a handful of games tonight and they did not go well - the nature of cascade abuse opens up a very disruptable curve. I'm inclined to fit a couple of basics in at the very least, even if this means running 0 wasteland and only 1 black source, and perhaps switching to Hierarchs. (I really like DRS's ability to edge out ground-stall match-ups, though Fire + Jace can probably get there okay.)

Any more thoughts on Boom//Bust? Do Bust board states come up enough to really be worth it?

Edit: Though I also go back and forth on the 4th Ancestral Vision, I really want to want 5 of them badly enough to run Research//Development. Research adding (say) Submerge and a Jace for grindy creature matches might be fun, but Development seems like a really fun cascade (even if it's just a worse Vision).

[Qweerios]

Boom // Bust is a strong cascade whenever you have board superiority or a suspended Ancestral Vision. Destroying all lands with a Bloodbraid in play is a bit like starting a game with a flipped delver. However, cutting back to 3 colors makes the inclusion of a playset of Wasteland a very real possibility.

I would never want to draw Research // Development at any point in the game.

Grim Lavamancer is a great replacement for DRS and an excellent metagame choice at the moment.

[SaintS]

Hi everyone!

I've been looking to build me a new deck in Legacy as I get a bit bored of my Dredge, and this one looks pretty sick, I love even more the 4c version that arrived 3rd in that japanese tournament, the only thing I'm missing were the Ancestral Vision, so here is a list with some modifications, I would like to hear what you think about it :

1 Badlands
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Treetop Village
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Bayou
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Baleful Strix
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
1 Domri Rade
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision


What do you guys think about the Garruk? it was in the list but I don't really see if it is that good or not (probably because I didn't test it yet)

thanks a lot!

[yaWgnorW]

I've been exploring around looking for a deck thats strong but not so commonly used, and stumbled upon this and so far I love it. I love Shardless BUG so naturally this deck intrigues me. I noticed the last post was a month ago, any reason?

I understand going RUG without the x on the end is going to be more consistent, but I can't help but look at B for Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman. I like the idea of that 4th being W, but so far I think B is the winner. This is a quick list I've tossed together.


//Creatures 16
4 Shardless Agent
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

//Spells 22
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Ancestral Vision

//Lands 22 - Still in progress


Having the black presence in the main is throwing me off on the mana base. If anyone can recommend something that would be great. I'm using the Punishing Fire package so Grove of the Burnwillows is most likely a 3 - 4 of. I'm looking at 9-10 fetches. Wasteland is tricky, either a 3 (since I'm using Black) or if I happen to drop Black then 4 of course.

The sideboard is going to have to hate on Combo. The 4th Force of Will and 3 copies of Pyrotasic Pillar are most likely going. Since I use black, I'm considering Thoughtseize for the side. What do we have (other then FoW) for Show and Tell?

EDIT: Forgot something else. I'm not so sure on the FoW in the main, but I do see the reason for it. I am also not so certain on the 4 BBE's. As a 4cc card, maybe dropping the number to 3 in the main wouldn't be so bad?

[mini1337s]

I've been exploring around looking for a deck thats strong but not so commonly used, and stumbled upon this and so far I love it. I love Shardless BUG so naturally this deck intrigues me. I noticed the last post was a month ago, any reason?

I understand going RUG without the x on the end is going to be more consistent, but I can't help but look at B for Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman. I like the idea of that 4th being W, but so far I think B is the winner. This is a quick list I've tossed together.


//Creatures 16
4 Shardless Agent
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

//Spells 22
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Ancestral Vision

//Lands 22 - Still in progress


Having the black presence in the main is throwing me off on the mana base. If anyone can recommend something that would be great. I'm using the Punishing Fire package so Grove of the Burnwillows is most likely a 3 - 4 of. I'm looking at 9-10 fetches. Wasteland is tricky, either a 3 (since I'm using Black) or if I happen to drop Black then 4 of course.

The sideboard is going to have to hate on Combo. The 4th Force of Will and 3 copies of Pyrotasic Pillar are most likely going. Since I use black, I'm considering Thoughtseize for the side. What do we have (other then FoW) for Show and Tell?

EDIT: Forgot something else. I'm not so sure on the FoW in the main, but I do see the reason for it. I am also not so certain on the 4 BBE's. As a 4cc card, maybe dropping the number to 3 in the main wouldn't be so bad?

In all seriousness, I would consider 2-3 City of Brass in your manabase if you are going for the 4th color + Punishing Fire combo.

[catmint]

I built and tested RUGb cascade pretty intensively.

Punishing Fire is not what the deck needs. You have so much late game power and should trump most other late game decks anyway. The problematic things are: Manascrew (Canadian) and combo so this is what you should tune the 75 for.

Black is certainly a good addition. Deathrite is so much better than hierarch and a couple of decas helps against larger creatures and problematic permanents, but most important is the discard which is big deal to support the combo matchup.

[yaWgnorW]

I built and tested RUGb cascade pretty intensively.

Punishing Fire is not what the deck needs. You have so much late game power and should trump most other late game decks anyway. The problematic things are: Manascrew (Canadian) and combo so this is what you should tune the 75 for.

Black is certainly a good addition. Deathrite is so much better than hierarch and a couple of decas helps against larger creatures and problematic permanents, but most important is the discard which is big deal to support the combo matchup.

So are you suggesting drop the punishing fire package? What would you recommend it its place?

[Qweerios]

You need to up your blue count for FoW. Put the 4th FoW in, the card is great with all the Ancestral Visions firing off and is your greatest answer for many decks. Fire // Ice, Izzet Charm, Ponder, and Vendilion Clique are all great ways to add blue cards to the deck as well. Don't play more than 2-3 Decays, they become clunky really fast when you try to cast them.

Concerning 4c manabase, you want all of your fetches to be blue and all of your duals to have blue in them. My 4 colored manabase looked like this:


2 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Taiga


Or if you want basic lands, do the following changes:
-1 Delta
-1 Volcanic
+1 Island
+1 Forest

You might want to look into adding a 4th Trop or losing the 3rd Volcanic, or even add a Bayou depending on the cards you use. A list with Jace, Clique, or Ponders will require a blue heavy manabase while a list favoring Decay, Thoughtseize, Ooze, Goyf might require a more green heavy manabase with additional black sources.

[yaWgnorW]

You need to up your blue count for FoW. Put the 4th FoW in, the card is great with all the Ancestral Visions firing off and is your greatest answer for many decks. Fire // Ice, Izzet Charm, Ponder, and Vendilion Clique are all great ways to add blue cards to the deck as well. Don't play more than 2-3 Decays, they become clunky really fast when you try to cast them.

Concerning 4c manabase, you want all of your fetches to be blue and all of your duals to have blue in them. My 4 colored manabase looked like this:


2 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Taiga


Or if you want basic lands, do the following changes:
-1 Delta
-1 Volcanic
+1 Island
+1 Forest

You might want to look into adding a 4th Trop or losing the 3rd Volcanic, or even add a Bayou depending on the cards you use. A list with Jace, Clique, or Ponders will require a blue heavy manabase while a list favoring Decay, Thoughtseize, Ooze, Goyf might require a more green heavy manabase with additional black sources.

Thank you for the help. I see your last deck list was posted in April (top of this page), do you happen to have an updated list or has it remained the same?
I suppose what I'm trying to do is add the 4th color black, which makes the deck heavy on green. I don't care for Jace with the B mixture, but I know if I simply went with RUG and no 4th color I'd run him without question. I'll drop an Abupt Decay as you suggest. I was onto this feeling anyway. What is your opinion on the Punishing Fire package?

[Qweerios]

Punishing Fire is fine but really unnecessary. The deck is very mana hungry and buying back shocks won't be your best play in most cases. I think Grim Lavamancer has way more synergy with the rest of the deck than Punishing Fire. Also, cascading into direct damage and removal (Decay) is considered the worst cascades for this deck. Converting extra cards into damage or bricking on removal is poor value when you spent 3 mana for a 2/2 and your deck consists mainly of midrange pressure.

Personally, I have stopped playing this deck entirely because combo is very popular right now and this particular matchup is abysmal. If I were to play it again, I would play a RUG only list for Grim Lavamancer and a playset of Wastelands with a 12-15 card SB dedicated entirely to combo. It would look something like this:


Creatures (20)
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells (18)
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire // Ice

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
4 Mindbreak Trap

[mistercakes]

Punishing Fire is fine but really unnecessary. The deck is very mana hungry and buying back shocks won't be your best play in most cases. I think Grim Lavamancer has way more synergy with the rest of the deck than Punishing Fire. Also, cascading into direct damage and removal (Decay) is considered the worst cascades for this deck. Converting extra cards into damage or bricking on removal is poor value when you spent 3 mana for a 2/2 and your deck consists mainly of midrange pressure.

Personally, I have stopped playing this deck entirely because combo is very popular right now and this particular matchup is abysmal. If I were to play it again, I would play a RUG only list for Grim Lavamancer and a playset of Wastelands with a 12-15 card SB dedicated entirely to combo. It would look something like this:


Creatures (20)
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells (18)
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire // Ice

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
4 Mindbreak Trap

you could consider running some land hate in the sb, either blood moon or boom/bust. i think with that many cascades, the boom/bust plan is pretty strong.

[yaWgnorW]

I see how tough Combo is, but yes side boarding should be able to help, but count the first game out unless they don't have answer if your FoW resolves. Anyway, I'm sticking with just RUG. Black complicates things, and I like Wasteland to much. Random Question, is Vexing Devil an option? I'm really just curious here.

[Qweerios]

Random Question, is Vexing Devil an option? I'm really just curious here.

No.

[yaWgnorW]

Deck got piloted to a top 8 this past weekend (SCG tournament)...pretty interesting seeing it in action. Lost to re-animator 2 out 3, both wins going to the re-animator while it was on the play.

[WorstBandNameEver]

Deck got piloted to a top 8 this past weekend (SCG tournament)...pretty interesting seeing it in action. Lost to re-animator 2 out 3, both wins going to the re-animator while it was on the play.

The pilot went 6-1-1 and drew into top 8. His only loss in the swiss was to Chris Pikula.