Page 2 of 22 FirstFirst 12345612 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 434

Thread: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

  1. #21
    Member
    Qweerios's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2010
    Location

    Montreal
    Posts

    1,024

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Thanks for that insight Esp3k, I didn't grasp that notion fully because I was still wondering how come you could cast Bust by cascading into it with a cascader with a CMC of at least 3.

    Speaking of Assault // Battery, isn't it just better than Lightning Bolt? You take away the instant speed and make it 2 instead of 3 damage but give it the potential to be a 3/3 creature and an overall better cascade spell.

    Looking at that Guided Passage list, it appears to be a control deck more than anything else. It seems like that deck revolves more around silver bullets rather than relentless aggression. What I like about Waterfalls is the fact that it is constantly in your face. It is akin to a RUG Delver deck but it swaps out the aggressive Delver openings in favor of additional fuel.
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  2. #22
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    2,818

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    I'm really diggin this deck idea. I just have 1 question... where are the Grim Lavamancers?
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  3. #23

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Looks pretty cool

    T1 - Mana Dude
    T2 - 2cc dude, Brainstorm opponent EOT
    T3 - Cascade into Visions

  4. #24
    Vintage

    Join Date

    Apr 2005
    Location

    West Coast Degeneracy
    Posts

    5,135

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Here's a more aggro version that placed well back in July.
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=63755

    //NAME: More Cascade Robin
    3 Bloodbraid Elf
    4 Shardless Agent
    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Tarmogoyf

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Punishing Fire

    3 Ancestral Vision
    3 Ponder

    3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Misty Rainforest
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Tropical Island
    1 Taiga
    4 Grove of the Burnwillows
    1 Island
    1 Mountain
    1 Forest

    //Sideboard
    SB: 4 Flusterstorm
    SB: 2 Pithing Needle
    SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
    SB: 3 Submerge
    SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
    West side
    Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
    * Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
    My Legacy stream
    My MTG Blog - Work in progress

  5. #25

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    I think it is too much to have both Bloodbraid as well as Shardless in one deck. You want to use the curve.

    This is what I've recently tried:

    3 Misty Rainforest
    1 Wooded Foothills
    3 Scalding Tarn
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Tropical Island
    1 Taiga
    4 Grove of the Burnwillows
    1 Mountain
    1 Forest
    1 Island


    4 Shardless Agend
    2 Vendilion Clique
    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Tarmogoyf
    2 Scavenging Ooze

    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Punishing Fire

    4 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
    4 Ancestral Visions
    4 Force of Will

    = 60

    SB:
    1 Krosan Grip
    1 Trygon Predator
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Spell Pierce
    1 Pyroblast
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Grafdiggers Cage
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    2 Submerge
    2 Mind Harness

    It is not easy to beat Delver (RUG or Tempo-Team America) but since you can create so much card advantage you should win against control. Against aggro you have to rely on Punishing Fire. Which you draw from time to time.

    I took it to a tourney two weeks ago.

    My wins were against Maverick, Omnitell

    Lost against Elves, Merfolks (both good match ups but due to not finding my removal suite...).

    The deck plays pretty well. I used to play this very deck before Shardless Agent and I was always very confident about it.
    Now it needs more testing. I'm for example not sure if I want to have Bloodbraid in there again. Do I want to cut a Jace TMS and have a second Ponder instead?
    What about having a fourth Punishing Fire? Do I really need 4 Ancestral Visions?
    Do we want to have Jitte in our sideboard, too?

    Historically spoken, I think this deck developed like this:
    Roberto Sartini played UGR

    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=39937

    Switched to something like this - called it "Robin":

    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=46870

    Had a lot of success:

    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=50310

    And other players tried it as well (especially in Germany and Italy, I think - Spain as well):
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...4&iddeck=56424 - Classical list
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=57358 - no cascade in here
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=58676 - no Visions - Guided Passage instead
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...3&iddeck=54634 - Classical list
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=60053 - Sartini again
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=60700 - Sartini moving back to Next Level Threshold again - almost cut the cascade mechanism completely

    So do we have a development towards cascade again? Does it make sense to give Shardless a try?

    I think the deck is well positioned because it can win against almost every possible deck. What we have to do right now, is to find a strong list that is well positioned in the current meta.

    Btw.: I would not play Tormod's Crypt in this deck's sideboard. There are a lot of better options. Relic allows you to draw a card, Grafdiggers Cage is good against a lot of different decks and stays on the battlefield, Extractions is not as narrow as Tormod's Crypt.

  6. #26
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
    catmint's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Posts

    923

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    So from my testing with this list I think 3 Tarmogoyf is enough. It is just too often dead in hand, because whenever you can play a more expensive spell you want to do so. And there are 10 more expenseive creatures

    Also cascading into Fire/Ice proofed to be very good, so I wont try out punishing fire. Also feels like there is no need with so much burn and card advantage.

    Currently thinking about the flex spot in this list

    20 land, 3 Basics, 4 Wasteland

    4 Shardless
    3 Bloodbraid
    3 Tarmogoyf
    4 Noble Hierarch
    3 Vendilion Clique

    1 Umezawas Jitte
    1 Sylvan Library
    4 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Fire/Ice
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ancestral Visions
    1 ???

    SB
    2 Mind Harness
    2 Submerge
    4 Spell Pierce
    2 Krosan Grip (can't shardless into and better against CB & Batterskull)
    1 Umezawas Jitte
    2 Sulfur Elemental
    2 Surgical Extraction

    So 1 Option would be to just run a Ponder, but with all the early plays and the relatively stable manabase I don't see it as a must. Another option would be to just cut the Jitte and run 2 Jace.

    Not sure about the sideboard yet. Don't know how much support the deck needs against maverick, but I am afraid the combo matchup will be pretty bad.
    Currently playing: Elves

  7. #27

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Three Tarmogoyf are enough.
    But 4 Wastelands and only 20 lands? Does that work?
    I mean I think your approach is pretty neat and looks pretty clever if you do not want to run Punishing Fire.
    I guess your sideboard is OK for the Maverick match up. And against combo you have Wastelands, too. So it might be OK.

  8. #28
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
    catmint's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Posts

    923

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Well, the way to loose to Candian is if you get screwed and die before you get anything going. Not sure how many more [colored] [basic] lands you need to make sure that does not happen too often. Against all other decks or RUG without Stifle I feel the manabase is ok.

    Maybe going up to 21 lands with 3 wastelands and playing 1 Ponder would make a difference. Btw.: Jace has been fantastic in my last couple of games, so won't cut him. :)

    Optimized list + manbase has to be figured out & adapted to the meta with intensive tests agains the tiers, but I feel the shell with Shardless + some number of bloodbraid/Jace with Visions rejecting Punishing Fire and Guided Passage is the way to go.
    Currently playing: Elves

  9. #29
    Boiyayoiyayoing
    Kyle's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2012
    Location

    SoCal, USA
    Posts

    165

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    I'm loving the RUG version of this. Reach is awesome and Bloodbraid Elf rocks. And the addition of Noble Hierarch is nifty for exalted.

    T1 Hierarch
    T2 Agent
    T3 Elf

    Neat.
    Whack lists currently playing:
    Rector Nic Fit
    Bizarro Stormy
    Rest In Pieces

  10. #30

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    This deck looks sweeeet! I really like "big" versions of RUG over Canadian. This looks so fun to play! I like the deck name to.

    I think we need to discuss the best cascade targets. Visions is obviously in, but other things need to be tested. Fire/Ice is definetly nice, but other split cards have potential too. Here's the list of all split cards: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Se...=visual&name=+[%2f]

    Cards that caught my eye: Assault/Battery, Boom/Bust (free armageddon!!) and Research/Development. All are also in deck colors so can be hardcast if necessary.

    Concerning Guided Passage: as much as i love this card, I just don't think it's good enough. The ussual pile is gonna be: random land, Hierarch and Visions or some split card. It's OK but not worth the slot imo.

    Concerning Izzet Charm: I love this card and currently testing it in my NLT, but it doesn't seem too good in this deck. Cascading into it is probably just worse then Fire/Ice.

    Here's my take on the list (nothing unusual really):

    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Shardless Agent
    3 Bloodbraind Elf
    3 Tarmogoyf
    2 Vendillion Clique
    2 Jace TMS
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ancestral Visions
    4 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Jitte
    3-4 open slots for cascade targets

    20-21 lands, including all 3 basics and 3-4 Wastelands.

    regards

  11. #31
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
    catmint's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Posts

    923

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    I don't think it works to cascade into the more expensive spells on split cards. Anyway I think it is very important to make the spells you want to cascade into also decent if drawn normally. A turn 1 visions is certainly ok and Fire Ice is a good removal spell. Also the ice part should be used aggressively as a Rishadan Port in the upkeep if Ancestral Visions is ticking down.
    Currently playing: Elves

  12. #32

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    I don't think it works to cascade into the more expensive spells on split cards. Anyway I think it is very important to make the spells you want to cascade into also decent if drawn normally. A turn 1 visions is certainly ok and Fire Ice is a good removal spell. Also the ice part should be used aggressively as a Rishadan Port in the upkeep if Ancestral Visions is ticking down.
    It very much does: per Bloodbraid Elf's oracle rulings: "If you exile a split card with Cascade, check if at least one half of that split card has a converted mana cost that's less than the converted mana cost of the spell with cascade. If so, you can cast either half of that split card."

    But you're correct; you should be running spells that are inherently good on their own, not only when freecast with cascade effects.

  13. #33
    Just call me Dick.
    Richard Cheese's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Location

    Your mom's house.
    Posts

    2,106

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    This is actually a really cool list, lots of interesting possibilities for abusing cascade.

    Would it be crazy to try some number of Esperzoa in the list? The problem with Shardless and BBE is that they are both pretty underwhelming once they hit play, but having a big flying beater that can bounce an Agent every turn seems worth exploring.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  14. #34
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
    catmint's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Posts

    923

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    I think Esperzoa could fall into the "fancy" sondrome. Vendilion Clique is just a straight up powerful play. As for 2/2 vanillas and 3/2 haste ground creatures.
    My esperiences is that:
    - I know exactly why hierarch deserves the spot altough she is not producing red
    - the ice/burn or "build up board position and overwhelm" tactic is what helps against opposing large roadblocks.
    - life total advantage helps to hold opposing beasts back.
    - If the board is stalled Visions can be cast and/or Jace can safe the day
    Currently playing: Elves

  15. #35
    Member
    Qweerios's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2010
    Location

    Montreal
    Posts

    1,024

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Here is a quick update on what I have tried/tested lately:

    -Assault // Battery is good, but not better than Bolt. It is a stronger cascade but a weaker card to hold as you will never cast the token part of it.

    -Punishing Fire is win-more. It is nowhere near Fire // Ice's power level. Most of the time, games don't even last long enough for both parts to be active, or the combo is simply easely disrupted. Grove is also a terrible land to draw.

    -Esperzoa and Aether Adept. Yes, I tested Aether Adept... Just like Illusory Angel, they are great when they work, but they don't always work, so that's a no-go.

    -Boom // Bust and Reasearch // Development are both terrible cards to hold in your hand. Cascading into them may be nice, but the odds of having to cast your spells are much higher than the odds of cascading into them. It's not because you can do something broken that it is good.

    The flex slots for this deck IMO are the # of Cliques and BBE. I like Jace in this deck but I am not entirely sold on him being better than BBE yet. In order to maximize/justify a playset of AVs, I don't think 7-8 cascaders is too many. I know how great brainstorm effects are for this deck, but how much slots can I dedicate to mid-late game card advantage?

    As a sidenote, I have thought of making the list more agressive with a lot of quick and effective cascade spells, Ponders, and Delvers but I opted against because it is diametricaly opposed to the deck's strategy. A 4CMC "core" card will not function in a Delver deck.
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  16. #36

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    I don't think red for BBE and bad removal outweights the need for swords to plowshares. I also don't want to ruin my cascades with manadorks. It's really about drawing 3 cards.
    The problem with cascade is the limits in the deckbuilding process (playing non-fow counters is PLAIN WRONG). Without discard (and i don't like it) we need something else... and instead of having sideboarded Counterbalances we will be better of with them main. And then we get to play the best support card for ancestral vision too (sensei's divining top).

    3 tundra
    3 tropical island
    4 misty rainforest
    4 flooded strand
    6 island
    1 forest
    1 plains
    4 sensei's divining top
    4 brainstorm
    4 swords to plowshares
    4 ancestral vision
    4 counterbalance
    4 tarmogoyf
    2 vedalken shackles
    4 shardless agent
    4 jace, the mind sculptor
    4 force of will
    3 tundra
    3 tropical island
    4 misty rainforest
    4 flooded strand
    6 island
    1 forest
    1 plains

    sideboard
    2 krosan grip
    4 path to exile
    2 elspeth, knight-errant
    2 tormod's crypt
    1 grafdigger's cage
    2 vendillion clique
    2 meddling mage

    There could be some number of divine verdicts/terminus in the side, but I really like the approach of 1 mana-removal and planeswalkers/vedalken shackles for crowdcontrol. It's really only Nimble mongoose that could be a real problem, MOR and etched champion can both be vedalken shackled. Submerge is nice and all but doesn't solve the classic merfolkproblem.

    stoneforge mystic is a card. I think goyf blocks better though, and that's what why want our 2manadork.

    snapcaster is sad of a cascade, but might be ok somewhere in the 75.

    I don't want to cascade into my situational cards so Krosan grip is the perfect anti-CB card.

    The manabas is really good and I rather not spice it up with non-basics (karakas, for example).

    Sadly Engineered explosives can't be played in a cascade list.

    Please let me know what you think or if the post should be moved somewhere else.

  17. #37
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
    catmint's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Posts

    923

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Concerning the RUG version I came to the same conclusions as Qweerios. On Jace: It is just a very different & powerful angle of attack that I like over the full playset of bloodbraid elves.

    Cascading in a UW counterbalance shell is a different approach:
    Yes you get to play SD.top and reduce randomness in your cascades, but by playing a lot of "bad" (in the sense of relatively bad in multiples or situational) cascade targets like SD.top, swords & counterbalance you need to do that. With RUG you take a shot at random and you don't mind if it is sometimes only 3 to the face or a hierarch, since you have more cascade spells and your gameplan supports reducing the opponents life.

    With your list I see the issue that you still need to get control somehow and you can use shardless only to draw some extra cards. You still play only 4 swords, 2 Shackles to control the board. You will very often "durdle" around with clunky hands (SD.top/counterbalance/shardless,Shackles, Jace) loosing a lot of tempo while Canadian & Maverick will kill you, because you do not have Terminus to get you back to the game. The reason Miracles can support clunky SD.top & Counterbalance is because they make up for their tempo by loss by having Terminus & Entreat the Angels.

    The Waterfall approach is more proactive and the opponent needs to stop you from killing them. You do not really need to get "full control"; you just need to overwhelm the opponent on the board & with life/card advantage. Therefore the 2/2 exhalted body has a much higher impact on the game. Also with 8 burn spells it is much easier to control the board. 4 of this spells (fire/ice) are very strong in this deck functioning as a rishadan port or creature tap & while beeing a very good random cascade target.
    Currently playing: Elves

  18. #38

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Yes, it is a different approach.

    I don't really agree about cascading bad cards... quite the opposite actually. I.E Sensei's Divining Top is not really bad in multiples, but if they were, you would never cascade into them (since having one will let you arrange the top cards anyway). There's also the neat synergy where you stack 2 dead draws (mostly lands) on top of a good card. Not only will you get a nice, consistent, present on your cascades but also get rid of 2 bad cards and a fresh new top3.

    I don't think the cascade/visions should be built as an aggrodeck, Canadian Threshhold is better at that.
    BBE and bolts sure adds up in damage when you goldfish but red/green/blue have problems dealing with big creatures. Playing for the mid-game means your opponent will be doing the same. Knight of the reliquary is game over far to often :(

    I understand the concern of my durdlyness and I like drawing cards a bit to much. However, those extra cards compensates for not running more anti-cards. 20 of my cards helps me find or play a plow (jace, bs, top, agent, visions). The other half of the deck makes sure it resolve:)

    I guess it's just personal preference as BBE is a very powerful card and im not into the whole "attacking with creatures".

    I agree that Terminus should be in the side over path. I re-read my post and I clearly stated that "I need removal for 1 mana" and terminus does that pretty much allways.

  19. #39
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
    catmint's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Posts

    923

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Good argument on the "multiple top" non-issue and the general top & Shardless synergy. Still think the deck "doesnt do" enough, but you can surely try to tune it in a way that you have a decent "UW Miracle-control with Shardless in it deck". I suggest to post that in the Miracles thread or open a new one, since it has some fundamental differences with this approach.

    As for canadian beeing the better aggro deck. I see it different: Canadian is actually a pretty bad aggro deck in the sense of being threat light, but it has a lot of good filtering & disruption riding the super-effecient threats to victory. Problem is if a deck like Nic Fit, Pox, BUG control, Miracles is out to get you, you have a hard time in the long game whereas Waterfalls likes to go long with a higher curve and more card-advantage than all of those decks. Compared to RUG you basically sacrifice a good combomatchup to make all the fair matchups more favourable.

    Also Maverick is very tough to beat with Canadian, whereas I feel it is much easier with Waterfalls. Knight is a problem, but he can be overwhelmed (you might have to 2 for 1 yourself which is often not a big deal) and he can't come down early as a huge anmial. Also don't forget the 4 Ice + 2 Jace to temporarily deal with big creatures, which can be enough for the deadly swings. With Hierarch + more creatures Thalia hurts a lot less and 8 burn spells fight mother more consistantly. Naturally games go long so some numbers of visions will resolve... Postboard you have Mind Harness & Submerge which are even stronger in waterfalls than in canadian because you swing for more. Also the 2 Sulfur Elemental can be played a lot better with Hierarch and more mana and you can run Jitte.

    I still have to test against my friend who is a good Maverick player, but I think the matchup will be much better than with Canadian.
    Currently playing: Elves

  20. #40

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    How about Phantasmal Image in there? pretty good against a lot of deck but can also copy your own agent or bloodbraid to keep on cascading?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)