West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
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@Catmint,
Glad to see we're on the same page as far as to how the deck functions and what direction it should take. Though, there are still a few things I don't understand.
How is 3 Goyfs enough? I want more than one in play, he is our biggest creature, he is on-curve, and he's our quickest path to victory.
Isn't 3 Cliques too many at times? Is she that important to our success that the third one is pulling its weight?
Why reject Ooze?
Why Surgical > Crypts in the SB?
Why Mind Harness > Submerge? It seems to me like Harness is a potential dead cascade at times when there is nothing to enchant or that you cannot afford to start taxing your mana. It is also card disadvantage if the upkeep cost becomes too prohibitive. I don't like Harness for the same reason I didn't like cascading into StP when I played Bant. Most often than not, there is nothing worth removing on the board when StP randomly shows up. Removal cards are good when they are left in your hand, waiting for the right moment to be used.
I think Cascade brings a new "random dynamic" to deck building. I believe cascade validates the use of singletons as long as they meet certain requirements such as:
-High impact
-High versatility
-High synergy
-Worthless in multiples
If these shares are equal in distribution, you have a great singleton for a cascade deck.
Sylvan library is a perfect example of a synergistic singleton that is equaly as impactful and versatile as it is useless in multiples. However, there are some cards that have such high impact and/or versatility that they outweigh the fact that they are dead multiples, therefore validating additional copies. Examples of such cards include:
-Vendilion Clique
-Scavenging Ooze
-Umezawa's Jitte
-Jace, the Mind Sculptor
With this being said, I see no reasons not to include all of these cards, without exception, as singletons.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
I really can't stand cascadeing into a f***ing manadork.
I don't care about the miserable conditional +1/+1 given by exalted, when I cascade, I want it to be as devasting as possible, considering Brainstorm the worst possible target.
But the deck really need to play mana acceleration. I can figure only one awful method to di it, Sol Lands. I mean, they are orrible in a three colored deck, they accelerate only BBE and Jace, but I cannot waste a cascade into them.
Thoughts?
Haters gonna hate.
Well he is not always on-curve. Whenever I have hierarch T1 I would like to follow-up with Clique or Shardless. Sure I want to sometimes burn + Goyf T2 with 3 mana, but on the other hand if I don't have Hierarch and I need to burn T2, I again want to Clique or Sharldess T3. Therefor I found it to be often stuck in the hand. That's not too bad since I can sandbag it for bad times, but I would rather have a BBE or a Jace for said bad times. Sure I want more in play and that is easily possible running 3. Also since we do not run any sorcerier excpet for visions he is not the strongest in this deck.
I am convinced she is the best card against combo, very good against control and good against the rest of the field. Can't think of any matchup right now where I would like to side her out. Besides her we can only interact with our opponent with 4 FoW, our 8 removal(4ice), wasteland & Jace. Since she is the only form of "hand-control" + the best offensive beater in the deck (we can make goyf only a 3/4 ourselves and she has flying) I would never cut her. Multiples are not a problem. If one in play is surviving and we are ahead we are winning. If we are behind she can trade/chump.. + she is blue. ;)
Ooze is a powerful card. Just a bit random without Green suns zenith, but could defenitely run him.
I am just at a point where I don't want to devote special slots to dredge. I accept to loose most of the time and only win with the pierce/foW + Wasteland hand if he gets stuck or with the occassional surgical. With this deck I can at least fire a hierarch and keep games a bit more fair. Surgicals can also come in against combo, Nic Fit, Loam, Punishing Fire,...
Cascading is a good argument, but if there is nothing worth harnessing and I am cascading I am probably ahead and can afford to whiff at times. On the other hand if the opponent has a goyf/Knight/ozze you would not like to see the submerges at the bottom while you cascade into something else. I just fell in love with mind harness playing Canadian. It is the more powerful card (also good against goblins which are popular right now) and with waterfalls you even have the mana to support it properly.
Agree on random and powerful 1offs like sylvan or jitte.
Vendilion Clique is good in multiples though. They usually remove her -> play another one. If not you likely win.
Multiple Jace is not relevant at all. If they handle it you have a nother one, if not you are winning and brainstorming your jace away.
Currently playing: Elves
Here is my issue with Goyf. He is either a 0 or 4-of in my book. He is strictly vanilla, there is nothing a Goyf brings to the table besides size. He isn't a silver bullet and his sole purpose is to exist on the field. Playing 3 feels like strategic hesitation. You go all out or you don't, there is no inbetween when goyf is concerned. In the advent that we choose not to play Goyf, I think it frees up a lot of deck space for additional Oozes and Jaces. Ooze is definitely a powerhouse in this deck. Between a Goyf and an Ooze, I choose the Ooze a million times over, I just don't want two of them...
As for Clique, I can definitely get behind using 3. It does do a lot for the deck, I wouldn't play 4 though. 2-3 is ideal.
Also, with a couple of Jaces in the deck, is Sylvan Library obsolete? I think it overlaps in purpose and we lose value.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
True Sylvan & Jace is a funny overkill.... I suppose it is a flex slot, however I always loved casting it turn 2/3.
I have a differnent point of view concerning the number of cards in a deck and would in general not go for "religious" all or nothing view. Some cards like daze and stifle do have this characteristic more, but even those numbers can be flexible in certain decks.
The approach I often like to use is:
4of: Always want it in my starting hand - i don't mind multiples
3of: Want it in my starting hand - not necessarily mutiples
2of: want to draw it at some point during the game
1of: Tutor target, random flex slot
this covers of course not all aspects of slection but for this deck it applies. 3 goyfs because I do like to cast one altough I do not want multiples, since I have more powerful spells if i have 3 or 4 mana available. That is a concious decision and not not a strategic hesitation.
As for cutting Goyf and playing ooze. Thought about it as well, but as you say: multiples are not that nice whereas multiple Goyfs are usually good. Goyf can also start beating and does not die to red removal wihout us spending mana (and having creatures to exile), so an argument against ooze is that you need to spend more resources on it to be good whereas with goyf you can just tap out for BBE. Still, could get behind testing without goyfs and oozes or other stuff instead because ooze hoses some strategies/cards.
Currently playing: Elves
I played against Goblins, Pox, and GB Natural Order.dec with Lotleth Troll using a no-Goyf/3 Ooze configuration. I don't think I will be looking back at Goyf now. I mounted a couple of comebacks from impossible situations using only Jace and Ooze.
I think that the fact that Ooze is weak to red removal when dropped early is irrelevant because decks using bolt-like removal tend to focus on tempo and direct damage. Ooze hoses those matchups much more than a Goyf ever would. Just like Clique, Ooze gives us positive odds against so many matchups that we otherwise don't. With Ooze, we now have something really solid to lean on when we're up against Reanimator, Dredge, KotR, Goyf, Snapcaster... The list goes on and on.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Holy shit your list is fun @catmint. I feel like a weathervane (since I love the BUG Cascade version), but wow the RUG version is sweet.
I made a few small modifications and it runs quite smoothly.
MD:
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Sylvan Library
+3 Sensei's Divining Top
SB:
-2 Mind Harness
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
-4 Spell Pierce (I never want to Cascade into this, though an argument could be made that postboard against Storm or SnT.dec you want more reliable countermagic and you abandon the heavy-Cascade strategy)
+3 Counterbalance
I'm totally married to Shardless Agent and Ancestral Visions, but Bloodbraid Elf has definitely become my sultry mistress. Accelerated T3 3/2 with Haste on a board you can control? Yes please.
Whack lists currently playing:
Rector Nic Fit
Bizarro Stormy
Rest In Pieces
Interesting.. I'll test with Ooze as well.
Curious to hear how the SD.tops work out. Feel it is too mana intensive when i just want to "drop my stuff". Also the 3 SD.top & 3 Counterbalance wont do the cut against combo i fear. Mrracles has this + the spell pierces + counterspells main. I am not worried about cascading into spell pierce, beacuse the cascade stuff is the first to cut against combo.
..but let's see how you do with it.
Currently playing: Elves
Just got an idea. How does cascade works with overload mechanic? It would be so awesome cascading into overloaded Cyclonic Rift
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
When casting spells spells with Alternative CC, you can only select one method to pay for it. Cascade is an Alt-CC, paying for only the printed mana cost. Overload is another Alt-CC. You cannot play a spell's Overload off a Cascade.
From RTR FAQ:
"If you are instructed to cast a spell with overload “without paying its mana cost,” you can’t choose to pay its overload cost instead."
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
I made the same mistake thinking the same way before the FAQ was released. Not that there any good Overload spells for this deck anyway.
Back on track -
@Kyle, you mentioned some changes from catmint's deck. Have you tested dropping some SDT and supplementing them with Trinket Mage?
The list I posted that ran Punishing Fire also ran EE which seems to handle a lot of problematic permanents that RUG has trouble dealing with (KotR). While it sucks to Cascade into them, the extra removal seems better against a wide-field nonetheless. Especially since this deck only runs Force of Will as a panic button.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
@Koby: not much experience using Trinket Mage - is the only reason to get a 2/2 and a SD.top in your hand? It seems a little clunky... what am I missing? Deck thinning? I'm not being facetious, I'm just wondering what benefit there is.
Whack lists currently playing:
Rector Nic Fit
Bizarro Stormy
Rest In Pieces
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Buddy of mine made a good point. Since I bring in 4 Spell Pierce ONLY against combo and not against control I should run 4 Flusterstorm instead.
Currently playing: Elves
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
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