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Thread: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

  1. #41
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Quote Originally Posted by silvanel View Post
    How about Phantasmal Image in there? pretty good against a lot of deck but can also copy your own agent or bloodbraid to keep on cascading?
    Cascade is a cast trigger. It has no effect when Clone'd.
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    @Catmint,

    Glad to see we're on the same page as far as to how the deck functions and what direction it should take. Though, there are still a few things I don't understand.

    How is 3 Goyfs enough? I want more than one in play, he is our biggest creature, he is on-curve, and he's our quickest path to victory.

    Isn't 3 Cliques too many at times? Is she that important to our success that the third one is pulling its weight?

    Why reject Ooze?

    Why Surgical > Crypts in the SB?

    Why Mind Harness > Submerge? It seems to me like Harness is a potential dead cascade at times when there is nothing to enchant or that you cannot afford to start taxing your mana. It is also card disadvantage if the upkeep cost becomes too prohibitive. I don't like Harness for the same reason I didn't like cascading into StP when I played Bant. Most often than not, there is nothing worth removing on the board when StP randomly shows up. Removal cards are good when they are left in your hand, waiting for the right moment to be used.

    I think Cascade brings a new "random dynamic" to deck building. I believe cascade validates the use of singletons as long as they meet certain requirements such as:

    -High impact
    -High versatility
    -High synergy
    -Worthless in multiples

    If these shares are equal in distribution, you have a great singleton for a cascade deck.
    Sylvan library is a perfect example of a synergistic singleton that is equaly as impactful and versatile as it is useless in multiples. However, there are some cards that have such high impact and/or versatility that they outweigh the fact that they are dead multiples, therefore validating additional copies. Examples of such cards include:

    -Vendilion Clique
    -Scavenging Ooze
    -Umezawa's Jitte
    -Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    With this being said, I see no reasons not to include all of these cards, without exception, as singletons.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    I really can't stand cascadeing into a f***ing manadork.

    I don't care about the miserable conditional +1/+1 given by exalted, when I cascade, I want it to be as devasting as possible, considering Brainstorm the worst possible target.

    But the deck really need to play mana acceleration. I can figure only one awful method to di it, Sol Lands. I mean, they are orrible in a three colored deck, they accelerate only BBE and Jace, but I cannot waste a cascade into them.

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  4. #44
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    @Catmint,

    Glad to see we're on the same page as far as to how the deck functions and what direction it should take. Though, there are still a few things I don't understand.

    How is 3 Goyfs enough? I want more than one in play, he is our biggest creature, he is on-curve, and he's our quickest path to victory.
    Well he is not always on-curve. Whenever I have hierarch T1 I would like to follow-up with Clique or Shardless. Sure I want to sometimes burn + Goyf T2 with 3 mana, but on the other hand if I don't have Hierarch and I need to burn T2, I again want to Clique or Sharldess T3. Therefor I found it to be often stuck in the hand. That's not too bad since I can sandbag it for bad times, but I would rather have a BBE or a Jace for said bad times. Sure I want more in play and that is easily possible running 3. Also since we do not run any sorcerier excpet for visions he is not the strongest in this deck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    Isn't 3 Cliques too many at times? Is she that important to our success that the third one is pulling its weight?
    I am convinced she is the best card against combo, very good against control and good against the rest of the field. Can't think of any matchup right now where I would like to side her out. Besides her we can only interact with our opponent with 4 FoW, our 8 removal(4ice), wasteland & Jace. Since she is the only form of "hand-control" + the best offensive beater in the deck (we can make goyf only a 3/4 ourselves and she has flying) I would never cut her. Multiples are not a problem. If one in play is surviving and we are ahead we are winning. If we are behind she can trade/chump.. + she is blue. ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    Why reject Ooze?
    Ooze is a powerful card. Just a bit random without Green suns zenith, but could defenitely run him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    Why Surgical > Crypts in the SB?
    I am just at a point where I don't want to devote special slots to dredge. I accept to loose most of the time and only win with the pierce/foW + Wasteland hand if he gets stuck or with the occassional surgical. With this deck I can at least fire a hierarch and keep games a bit more fair. Surgicals can also come in against combo, Nic Fit, Loam, Punishing Fire,...

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    Why Mind Harness > Submerge? It seems to me like Harness is a potential dead cascade at times when there is nothing to enchant or that you cannot afford to start taxing your mana. It is also card disadvantage if the upkeep cost becomes too prohibitive. I don't like Harness for the same reason I didn't like cascading into StP when I played Bant. Most often than not, there is nothing worth removing on the board when StP randomly shows up. Removal cards are good when they are left in your hand, waiting for the right moment to be used.
    Cascading is a good argument, but if there is nothing worth harnessing and I am cascading I am probably ahead and can afford to whiff at times. On the other hand if the opponent has a goyf/Knight/ozze you would not like to see the submerges at the bottom while you cascade into something else. I just fell in love with mind harness playing Canadian. It is the more powerful card (also good against goblins which are popular right now) and with waterfalls you even have the mana to support it properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    I think Cascade brings a new "random dynamic" to deck building. I believe cascade validates the use of singletons as long as they meet certain requirements such as:

    -High impact
    -High versatility
    -High synergy
    -Worthless in multiples

    If these shares are equal in distribution, you have a great singleton for a cascade deck.
    Sylvan library is a perfect example of a synergistic singleton that is equaly as impactful and versatile as it is useless in multiples. However, there are some cards that have such high impact and/or versatility that they outweigh the fact that they are dead multiples, therefore validating additional copies. Examples of such cards include:

    -Vendilion Clique
    -Scavenging Ooze
    -Umezawa's Jitte
    -Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    With this being said, I see no reasons not to include all of these cards, without exception, as singletons.
    Agree on random and powerful 1offs like sylvan or jitte.
    Vendilion Clique is good in multiples though. They usually remove her -> play another one. If not you likely win.
    Multiple Jace is not relevant at all. If they handle it you have a nother one, if not you are winning and brainstorming your jace away.
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  5. #45
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Here is my issue with Goyf. He is either a 0 or 4-of in my book. He is strictly vanilla, there is nothing a Goyf brings to the table besides size. He isn't a silver bullet and his sole purpose is to exist on the field. Playing 3 feels like strategic hesitation. You go all out or you don't, there is no inbetween when goyf is concerned. In the advent that we choose not to play Goyf, I think it frees up a lot of deck space for additional Oozes and Jaces. Ooze is definitely a powerhouse in this deck. Between a Goyf and an Ooze, I choose the Ooze a million times over, I just don't want two of them...

    As for Clique, I can definitely get behind using 3. It does do a lot for the deck, I wouldn't play 4 though. 2-3 is ideal.

    Also, with a couple of Jaces in the deck, is Sylvan Library obsolete? I think it overlaps in purpose and we lose value.
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  6. #46
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    True Sylvan & Jace is a funny overkill.... I suppose it is a flex slot, however I always loved casting it turn 2/3.

    I have a differnent point of view concerning the number of cards in a deck and would in general not go for "religious" all or nothing view. Some cards like daze and stifle do have this characteristic more, but even those numbers can be flexible in certain decks.

    The approach I often like to use is:
    4of: Always want it in my starting hand - i don't mind multiples
    3of: Want it in my starting hand - not necessarily mutiples
    2of: want to draw it at some point during the game
    1of: Tutor target, random flex slot

    this covers of course not all aspects of slection but for this deck it applies. 3 goyfs because I do like to cast one altough I do not want multiples, since I have more powerful spells if i have 3 or 4 mana available. That is a concious decision and not not a strategic hesitation.

    As for cutting Goyf and playing ooze. Thought about it as well, but as you say: multiples are not that nice whereas multiple Goyfs are usually good. Goyf can also start beating and does not die to red removal wihout us spending mana (and having creatures to exile), so an argument against ooze is that you need to spend more resources on it to be good whereas with goyf you can just tap out for BBE. Still, could get behind testing without goyfs and oozes or other stuff instead because ooze hoses some strategies/cards.
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  7. #47
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    I played against Goblins, Pox, and GB Natural Order.dec with Lotleth Troll using a no-Goyf/3 Ooze configuration. I don't think I will be looking back at Goyf now. I mounted a couple of comebacks from impossible situations using only Jace and Ooze.

    I think that the fact that Ooze is weak to red removal when dropped early is irrelevant because decks using bolt-like removal tend to focus on tempo and direct damage. Ooze hoses those matchups much more than a Goyf ever would. Just like Clique, Ooze gives us positive odds against so many matchups that we otherwise don't. With Ooze, we now have something really solid to lean on when we're up against Reanimator, Dredge, KotR, Goyf, Snapcaster... The list goes on and on.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    So from my testing with this list I think 3 Tarmogoyf is enough...
    Holy shit your list is fun @catmint. I feel like a weathervane (since I love the BUG Cascade version), but wow the RUG version is sweet.

    I made a few small modifications and it runs quite smoothly.

    MD:

    -1 Umezawa's Jitte
    -1 Sylvan Library
    +3 Sensei's Divining Top

    SB:

    -2 Mind Harness
    +1 Umezawa's Jitte
    -4 Spell Pierce (I never want to Cascade into this, though an argument could be made that postboard against Storm or SnT.dec you want more reliable countermagic and you abandon the heavy-Cascade strategy)
    +3 Counterbalance

    I'm totally married to Shardless Agent and Ancestral Visions, but Bloodbraid Elf has definitely become my sultry mistress. Accelerated T3 3/2 with Haste on a board you can control? Yes please.
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  9. #49
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Interesting.. I'll test with Ooze as well.

    Curious to hear how the SD.tops work out. Feel it is too mana intensive when i just want to "drop my stuff". Also the 3 SD.top & 3 Counterbalance wont do the cut against combo i fear. Mrracles has this + the spell pierces + counterspells main. I am not worried about cascading into spell pierce, beacuse the cascade stuff is the first to cut against combo.
    ..but let's see how you do with it.
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  10. #50

    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Just got an idea. How does cascade works with overload mechanic? It would be so awesome cascading into overloaded Cyclonic Rift

  11. #51
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikor View Post
    Just got an idea. How does cascade works with overload mechanic? It would be so awesome cascading into overloaded Cyclonic Rift
    I don't think this works. I'm pretty sure cascade only lets you ignore the casting cost, but any alternative costs have to be paid as normal. Otherwise you'd have shenanigans like infinite multikicker.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

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  12. #52
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    deleted because I can't read the rules. :)
    Last edited by .dk; 10-03-2012 at 01:33 PM.
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    When casting spells spells with Alternative CC, you can only select one method to pay for it. Cascade is an Alt-CC, paying for only the printed mana cost. Overload is another Alt-CC. You cannot play a spell's Overload off a Cascade.

    From RTR FAQ:
    "If you are instructed to cast a spell with overload “without paying its mana cost,” you can’t choose to pay its overload cost instead."
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  14. #54
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    When casting spells spells with Alternative CC, you can only select one method to pay for it. Cascade is an Alt-CC, paying for only the printed mana cost. Overload is another Alt-CC. You cannot play a spell's Overload off a Cascade.

    From RTR FAQ:
    "If you are instructed to cast a spell with overload “without paying its mana cost,” you can’t choose to pay its overload cost instead."
    ah, I stand corrected. Thanks for clarifying - going to delete my post for posterity.
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    I made the same mistake thinking the same way before the FAQ was released. Not that there any good Overload spells for this deck anyway.

    Back on track -
    @Kyle, you mentioned some changes from catmint's deck. Have you tested dropping some SDT and supplementing them with Trinket Mage?

    The list I posted that ran Punishing Fire also ran EE which seems to handle a lot of problematic permanents that RUG has trouble dealing with (KotR). While it sucks to Cascade into them, the extra removal seems better against a wide-field nonetheless. Especially since this deck only runs Force of Will as a panic button.
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  16. #56
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    @Koby: not much experience using Trinket Mage - is the only reason to get a 2/2 and a SD.top in your hand? It seems a little clunky... what am I missing? Deck thinning? I'm not being facetious, I'm just wondering what benefit there is.
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  17. #57
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    When casting spells spells with Alternative CC, you can only select one method to pay for it. Cascade is an Alt-CC, paying for only the printed mana cost. Overload is another Alt-CC. You cannot play a spell's Overload off a Cascade.

    From RTR FAQ:
    "If you are instructed to cast a spell with overload “without paying its mana cost,” you can’t choose to pay its overload cost instead."
    Ah, so "alternative cost" vs. "additional costs" I guess. My bad.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

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  18. #58
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Buddy of mine made a good point. Since I bring in 4 Spell Pierce ONLY against combo and not against control I should run 4 Flusterstorm instead.
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    @Koby: not much experience using Trinket Mage - is the only reason to get a 2/2 and a SD.top in your hand? It seems a little clunky... what am I missing? Deck thinning? I'm not being facetious, I'm just wondering what benefit there is.
    I'm trying out 1 EE 1 Top 1 Trinket Mage MD, with more G/Y hate SB to utilize with it (2 Relics 1 Cage 1 extra Top). It's admittedly rather weak, but I'll see how it performs at some local events.
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  20. #60
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    Re: Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    Buddy of mine made a good point. Since I bring in 4 Spell Pierce ONLY against combo and not against control I should run 4 Flusterstorm instead.
    Flusterstorm makes my head spin.

    @Koby: I see - there's a lot of good potential tutoring then - cool.
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