Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

[Qweerios]

Has anybody tested Izzet Charm out of the SB against various matchups? It's "something" to sb against goblins (although goblins are easy) over FoW. It is also additional counters against combo, and it's a counter/removal/not-dead cascade against control (miracle in particular).

...and yeah, there is definitely no use for Spell Pierce if Flusterstorm is around. It's not like we will ever side them in against anything non-combo.

Oh, another idea I've been tinkering with for SB against Combo/Control. How about 4 Thalia and a single Tundra? A single Tundra in the board also enables other SB techs that I can't think of right now. Noble Hierarch also makes it smoother on the Tundra.

[gesucca]

I tested Izzet Charm maindeck, it's something that is worth to try.

For me, it does not make the cut 'cause my meta is infested by RUG and, being exposed to all the denial in the world, it's hard to have those UR to cast a card completly useless in this match up.

Theorically, it solves the problem of the lack of counters maindeck, because if cascaded into it actually do something, even only filtering a pair of cards.

In my list wich runs Ancient Tomb as a 3-of in the Hieracs slots, I've found Cunning Wish as a valid tool for protecting myself against combo while don't ruining the cascade mechanic with cheap counters maindecked or sided in.

I'm going to a little local tournament this evening (I'm from Italy, so now it's morning) to test my list more deeply, so I'll write a report to post my impressions.

EDIT for the mono Tundra and the playset of Thalia, well, I don't think we can support four colours. It's another thing that's worth a chance, but I'm scared that it won't really solve the deck's problems.

[catmint]

A splash for white against combo/contro sounds interesting, because these decks usually don't kill Hierarchs or run wastelands. We would have access to Thalia & Meddling Mage which are the most poweful hatebears at the moment. Problem is that I would still like to run the flusterstorms, so not sure where to take the additional sideboard slots from, but it is a nice idea.

[catmint]

Took down my local tourney today with 4-0 (8-0 in matches).
It was a blast to play and since most of the good players in my meta run some UW variants and there is not a lot of RUG tempo the deck is well positioned. It performs very well against Stoenblade (as expected) - I always felt pretty safe & ahead altough I made some minor misplays.

I faced:
Monowhite control with Isochrone Scepter.
UW Stoneblade
Monored Imperial Painter
UWb Stoneblade

The opponents from round 2-4 were all pretty good austrian players, so the deck got some props.

The list:

1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Shardless Agent
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Scanvenging Ooze
2 Bloodbraid Elf

1 Sylvan Library
2 Jace, the mind sculptor

4 Ancestral Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice

//Sideboard
1 Umezawas Jitte
2 Submerge
1 Mind Harness
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Flusterstorm
1 Counterspell


I only played goyf because I did not have 3 ooze. Still not 100% sure if I want ooze or goyf, but I guess ooze is better. ooze has surely more utility but i did not test enough how good he is against RUG tempo in practice. It is very manaintensive to stop opposing Goyfs/Mongooses and it can be conditionally answered by bolt.

The maindeck library should probably be a jitte. I had so much card advantage in my matches it was truely an overkill. Guess Jitte is much better against RUG & Maverick and deserves the maindeck spot over library.

So still have to test more on how the deck plays out against miracles, RUG & Maverick to see if I can also take it to a larger tournament. I also want to test if some form of permanent based hate is more effective against combo. I am afraid Canonist or Jitte hurt our own deck too much, so Meddling Mage could be an option.

[Qweerios]

Congratulations on your performance, really good news!

I see you have opted for a 21st land, I was also considering going up to 21-22 lands but I don't know what I would cut. Perhaps the 3rd Ooze or 3rd Bloodbraid.

On the topic of Permanent-based hate, Chalice of the Void is also something to look into.

I have tested against Maverick, RUG, and Miracles. RUG and Maverick are favorable because we have so much removal, and it just keeps on coming. We have too many threats and removal for them to handle. Avoid the T1 Mom and T1 Delver power plays and the matchup is very favorable. As for Miracle, it's a bit trickier. There is no way they can keep up with the amount of threats + cards we draw and it is fairly difficult to deal 20 points of damage before they can entreat for lethal. It is all about keeping 1-2 threats on the field at all times while stacking up counterspells for Entreat. I suggest not wasting any counters on Jaces or StP because you will punch through. Red Blasts, FoW, and Vision is your way to victory. Always hold Clique as well.

[Philipp2293]

Since my friend Catmint did really well I also decided to try this deck. I played his list with the suggested changes at my locals:

2-1 vs Hulk (loss was after mull 5 and she draws 3 abrupt decay, so I die to dork beatdown since I can't stick anything relevant)
2-0 vs Esperblade (easymode win, flashed in Clique with the last Vision trigger on the stack to remove his last counter)
1-0 vs Esperblade (possibly the best eternal player in my city, easily won G1, then conceeded to be ready for Soccer on time)

Also, instead of the singleton Counterspell in the SB, wouldn't a miser Life from the loam have way more value?

[catmint]

Nice Philip. If you mean Robert as the best eternal player in Vienna - (I agree)... beat him last sunday in the final. :)

Concerning matchup analysis:
RUG tempo is slightly in their favour I think. I won a couple of games online but the other players were bad. A good player can gain enough tempo advantage to win before we stabilize. Problems are: Stifle is good in the sense of killing 1 hierarch, stifling 1 fetch and wasting 1 land can be GG. Stifle also hits cascade or a natural suspended visions. Also they can reayll abuse daze & spell pierce against our cascading making it awkward. I would not go up to 22 lands though to fight RUG - think that would be too much. Tarmogoyf proofed to be better agaist RUG (ironically - because Mavericks ooze wrecks RUG), however since we fall behind in tempo a lot we need something to "unconditionally" say stop on the ground immediately. If we have so much time too "ooze away their threshold" or their Goyf power, we would probably also win just with the goyf. Therefor I play 2 Goyf, 1 Ooze now, which is kind of random but whatever...

Mircales proofed to be muuuch harder than Esper. The 4/4 Angels are a problem such as Counterbalance and they have a better Jace plan (better mana/card selection, more Jace). We can't really stop counterbalance a lot game 1 and they can then easily counter Visions. If that happens a Terminus might be already enough to seal the deal. Therefor I adjusted the SB like this:

2 Mind Harness
1 Submerge
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Engineered Explosives (still good vs. RUG & Maverick, but also against Counterbalance and entreat)
2 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Flusterstorm
2 Envelop (hard counter against most combo, also comes in against Miracles, where Bolt goes out)

Loam in the SB is a nice option, I don't see it helping a lot in any problematic matchup (RUG, Miracles, combo)

[Einherjer]

Im tempted. I really am.

Before taking up a deck I tend to ask different people and talk to them. So I talked to Spartan this evening and he told me, that a italian champion has been playing this deck forever. Without Shardless Agent though ( firstly due to him not being lega and now due to his deckbuild ) - I cannot judge wheter it's better or not - but I do tend to think, that 6 Cascade-guys is pretty much a must. Maybe 7 is the perfect number - I do not know.

But, this guy has been playing Punishing Fires in this builds. So I pondered a little about the idea. It does improve the following MUs:
1) Maverick - shoots down their dorks, easy.
2) Stoneblade - well, as you put it, its a cakewalk in any way?
3) Miracle - we hade quite a long discussion about whether Punishing Fire is good against Miracle or not. We did not come to an conclusion we both were happy with, but we agreed on the following, that Punishing Fire provides a (minimal) clock at least. In addition to this, it turns off the beats from Snapcaster/Clique/Factory plus, and I think this is the most important point, it handles Jace very well. Very very well.

What are you opinions on this? I might go and sleeve this deck up tomorrow before I do another test-session in the afternoon. I cannot concentrate on this deck only, but I will give it a spin.

Greetings

EDIT:Johannes, mind writing Philipps name correctly? It hurts the soul of another Philipp!^^

[metamet]

Phillipp802,

Do you have his deck list? Pfire is pretty controllie, but I've always been a fan of it whenever it fits.

[miko]

Sartini has been playing this deck forever. But recently he removed all cascaders from his deck.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=67334
That is the most recent list I could find.

Punishing Fire is a great card. I've played it in this very deck in about 5-7 tourneys but I'll definitely try and play Fire/Ice instead. Just because it creates card advantage faster than Punishing Fire.

[catmint]

P. Fire can be very good in some matchups however

P Fire over Bolt?: No, because 1cmc is needed and Bolt is the better card overall

P Fire over Fire//Ice?: No, because random cascading into Ice is much better and the Ice in general has a lot of utility when burn is not relevant like tapping an opponents land in upkeep hoping to get a "timewalk" while cycling through your deck.

Also the card advantage of P. Fire is not needed.
______

Other thoughts:
The Maverick matchup is good I feel. Ooze is of course much better than Goyf in this MU.

I am also running 0 Jitte now - was not too happy with in in testing against RUG and Maverick, which are the decks where it is supposed to do most. Reason is I don't see it having a lot of potential turning a match against RUG around once we are behind. We loose a lot of tempo (and maybe a game) if we cast/equip attack and they then kill/submerge the creature. If we are ahead we do not need Jitte. And Maverick has knight for Maze to stop jitte, so instead of loosing a turn to cast/equip Jitte I would ususally just cast a cascader or Jace to advance the board position. Still, feels wrong not to run jitte in a "fast mana" deck with many creatures.

[Esper3k]

With 4x Wastelands though, I don't think you really need to worry about Maze of Ith?

[Qweerios]

In case nobody has noticed yet, I do update the list in the original post quite often. I do play the deck a lot but I probably won't bring it to a tournament for another couple of weeks.

[kingtk3]

I won a 24 man event yesterday with this list


MAIN
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Ancestral Vision

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will

2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

SIDE
2 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
2 krosan grip
4 flusterstorm
2 tormod's crypt
2 trygon predator
2 mind harness


Merfolk
First game I suspend a Vision while he leads with vial, Fire a cursecatcher and a Silvergill, bolt a Lord and procede to win with the card advantage provided by the vision.

-4 Fow, -1 Vendilion, +3 Reb, +2 Trygon

Second game I have a slow hand with some removal but he Dismembers my Noble, which slows me a lot, and has a too many creatures and lords. I die although having an active Jitte on a Trygon for a couple of turns.
Third game I don't remember very well but he has another first turn vial (and a second turn too) while I sit on a hand full of Bolts: some gets countered by Beb, the others make their job and I win with goyf later
Interesting how my opponents have lost both the matches in which he drew Vial: maybe it's too of a dead draw against deck with many spots removal and he could have done better siding them out, morealso because he played Cavern of souls too.

Elves
My opponent was chatting with his friend saying how he won the first match thanks to Emrakul, so I put him on sneak and show or omniscence. This leads me to mulligan a hand with double removal and brainstorm and keep a six with fow and multiple brainstorm which, obviously, is terrible against elves... oh well...

-3 ancestral vision, -3 BBE, +2 mind harness, +4 flusterstorm (I don't want him to resolve zenith or glimpse)

Game 2 and 3 he mulligans and I Fire his drops: GG

U/R Burn
I play land, go. He drops a delver which I bolt, then drop a land and a goyf (having another in hand). He doesn't drop another land but drops another delver. I attack, he flips his delver, brainstorms play a Guide and sets up a miracle for his next turn. However I kill his delver and drop a Jitte and it's GG.

-4 Fow, +4 Flusterstorm (Since I don't mind about his creatures I need only to counter his Price or miracle)

Game 2 he's not very aggressive, maybe because he has some counters, but I get too advantage from my cascade and his deck is not good at recover.

Junk
We ID

Deathrite BUG
he leads with land -> deathrite shaman, but in the following turns don't play any lands, although discards all my Fire/Ice.
I suspend 3 (!!!) Visions but in the meanwhile keep drawing only lands and a Noble, applying no pressure at all. The first Vision get countered, the second stiffled and last resolves giving me a BBE which cascades into a Bolt on the shaman. At this point my opponent concedes.

-4 fow, -1 vendilion, -2 Bolt, +4flusterstorm, +3 Reb

We both mulligan to 6 and the game recalls the first. However he thoughtseizes me three times and misdirect my ancestral on himself. Fortunately his deck doesn't apply so much pressure and after a long attrition war I land a Shardless which, with double exalted, quickly ends the match.

SEMIFINAL Miracle
I play an early Noble then get blessed by the BBE->Shardless->Vision chain that finds me a Jitte, and later they are joined by a Goyf. In the meanwhile the opponent enstablished a countertop lock and swords some of my creatures but I already have lethal on the board thanks to Jitte.

-4 Bolt, -4 Fow, -1 Vendilion, +2 flusterstorm, +3 reb, +2 Trygon, +2 Krosan

We trade creatures for removals but I keep going thanks to cascade and suspended Visions, until the opponent remains with no cards in hand and I'm free to cast BBE for the win.

FINAL Junk
First game is a blowout in his favor: during his third turn (he's on the play) I cast vendilion revealing Vindicate, Waste, Zealous Persecution and Sword of fire and Ice. I chose the Vindicate because I did'nt want to loose two of my lands, and naturally he draws another:... In the following 3 turns he then plays sofi, lavamancer (equipped), shots to my vendilion, swords a goyf, tourach my last 2 cards and casts bob... GG

-2 vendilion, -4 fow, +2 flusterstorm, +2 krosan, +2 Trygon

Game 2 I have double Noble and Jitte and he builds his board with Thalia and Stoneforge Mystic fetching Jitte to kill mine. However I waste some of his lands and kill his SFM so he couldn't play his jitte until he finds a third land, which eventually does. After a couple of swords and flusterstorm a 5/6 goyf is winning the match

Game 3 is like game 1 but in my favor instead: Fire takes care of lavamancer + bob, Noble + Goyf + Jitte put a rapid clock and when he plays batteskull BBE reveals krosan and attacks for the win

So in the end I was very happy with both the main and the side: goyf provided the beats this deck needs to win fast and I always like when I see another (which may upset me in case of Ooze).
I think that I could cut 1 Vision and maybe 1 Vendilion because drawing into multiple visions is awful against some decks and Vendilion is legendary, but I don't know what I could add.

[Einherjer]

I did some testing this afternoon. Mostly with RUG Tempo and RUG Waterfalls. I took catmints list as a starting point. I took the 2/1 split of Goyf/Ooze too, even though I know he only played it that way, because he had no access to more Oozes.

My (personal) conclusion:
I think Tarmogoyf is stronger than Scavenging Ooze. Especially in MUs like RUG Tempo. Yes, an Ooze is very good when you have enough mana/time, but once they started the tempo-plan you neither have mana nor time. That were the times, when Goyf was stricly better than Ooze. In addition to this, you never want to cascade into 2 Ooze, but cascading into 2 Goyf is no problem.
Jace is essential to my point of view. I never missed any kind of equipment like Jitte - Jace just seemed optimal to close mid/lategames. Setting very powerful Cascades like Elf into Agent into X up is very strong.
3 Vendilion Clique were a little much from time to time, but their role in the deck seems to be very important, so I wouldnt cut any of those. Maybe one.. Not sure yet.

So I'd much rather play the full playset of Tarmogoyfs. Ill cut the 1of Ooze for sure. Maybe the 3rd Clique too.

Some funny story by the way: Me and my test-partner switch the decks we test every few rounds. So I gave him Waterfalls and while he picked up the deck he said "Lets try Waterfalls!" While doing so he knocked the glass of water standing beneath him over and made it fall over my Sideboard-collection for pretty much all my decks.... well... nice Waterfalls there.... ^^

Greetings

[catmint]

congrats kingt - I would try playing jace and going down with BBE. It just adds such a different angle of attack most decks are not prepared for. Cutting Visions is tempting, but I think I want to max out on cascading into it.

I came to similar conclusions concerning Goyf Philipp. The RUG matchup make him a necessity and multiples are good. Ooze's utility is very valuable in many matchups but I guess we have to live without it.

____________

I played yesterday in a small combo infested tourney. In round 1: Lost pretty clear to Show & Tell. No chance g1 and despite 3 counterspells g2 no chance against his nut-draw. Round 2, I won against a storm variant but I played so horrible that I decided to scoop since he let me take back my surgical which I decided to cast on 2 life.

Anyway it made me think about the combo matchup again and want to come back to the discussion we had before about permanent vs. counterspell based hate.
Fact is that both Show&Tell and Storm are very well prepared versus counterspell based hate and with 5 slots sidebaord + 4 FoW we still have much less than RUG Tempo. You can put up a fight with manadenial (wasteland+icing their lands), clique & a fast clock, but I feel that the 5 slots in the SB are not improving the matchups to the necessary extent that would make them worth it, but I can imagine that some permanent based hate hits them cold because they do not expect it.

So when we talk about permanent based hate, we have to go into white, but including 1 Tundra + the hierarchs should be fine. So I am brainstorming about the possible options and most importantly thinking about their applications against storm/Show&Tell combo but also against the other important matchups.

- Thalia: not an option - hurts us too much.

- Pyrostatic Pillar: Best option against all Storm Variants + Elves (which are not a big problem anyway). Against Show&Tell i guess it can make 2-8 damage befor they go off, since they usually play 12 cantrips, burning wish & overmaster - that might be something?. Don't think that card deservers a slot against Miracles, Esper or Maverick.

- Meddling Mage: Best option against Show&Tell, decent against Storm. Good against Miracles.

- Chalice of the Void: Chalice alone does not stop storm or show&tell, but it can slow them down in specific situations. It would be good against RUG, altough how to kill their delver without our own lightning bolt. :)

- Teeg: almost nothing against Show&Tell. Very good against Storm variants and Miracles. You can argue that we want our own Jace against Miracles, but he hurts them much more and eats removal while we beat-down; can imagine they would be really annoyed by it.

- Canonist: We have to side-out BBE, but cascading still works with Shardless Agent. It is like pillar very good against storm variants, but does almost nothing against Show&Tell. Hurts us as well so no option vs. any non combo deck.

- Detention Sphere/Oblivion Ring: Obviously Super good against Show & Tell. Even if they put in Griselbrand and Draw 7 cards, I feel we can win because we should have some creatures on the board. Detention Sphere has fringe applications against Empty the warrens, but it basically does nothing against Storm. Versus Miracles Sphere is an answer to Jace (maybe counterbalance) but more important Entreat, which can turn around games. So although Sphere can be red-blasted I would still op to go for that over oblivion Ring. Detention Sphere is also another answer to a Knight, but it is a very bad card against RUG tempo.

I am not looking at other 3 CMC permanent hate, because I want to find it with Shardless Agent. Can't think of anything else right now - would appreciate if you could also put some thought into that.

______________
So in the current meta I would prepare for Show&Tell primarily and the best option for that is meddling mage. Since that card is also good against Miracles, which is a tough one and can buy enough time versus storm, I am happy including 4 in the sideboard. The good thing is that in all matches where you want to bring in Mage, Bolt is weak so you can leave in all cascaders when you bring in Mage, which makes the cascades then function as a "mage tutor". Against Miracles hierarch should come out as well because of Terminus, which makes casting mage a bit hard though.

So my current idea is that I want to max out the SB against Show&Tell & Miracles - hoping to dodge Storm. Btw.: Mage is also decent against Dredge naming Cabal Therapy

4 Meddling Mage
2 Detention Sphere
2 Submerge
2 Mind Harness
2 Surgical Extractions
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sulfur Elemental

In a storm heavy meta I would run 2-3 Pyrostatic Pillar. Concerning Maindeck changes. I am thinking about replacing Library with Ponder, since it is the better manafixer (more relevant running 1 Tundra now) and you do not "fall behind" in tempo against RUG that much.

[Qweerios]

I think thalia is good. I play Thalia in a Bant Vial deck (Big Two) along with Daze and SB Spell Pierce, and it is very powerful. Thalia will give you a clock against SnT and Storm and will buy you a turn (the one it came into play upon). After that, it's only a matter of leaving mana open for a Red Blast or a Flusterstorm. You can also afford to have Omniscience resolve because you can simply Blast it afterwards. The fact that it cripples subsequent Cascades is irrelevant in the matchups where she is needed.

Against Miracles, I don't think Detention Sphere helps much at all. I also think siding out FoW against Miracles is wrong. This matchup isn't that bad to begin with. We have 4 FoW and 3 Cliques main as well as enough CA to outlast their stalling tactics (StP + Terminus) I think a couple of Meddling Mages here and there and a few Red Blasts are enough to seal the deal.

Canonist, Teeg, and Chalice are all worst than Thalia IMO.

Also, for the SnT MU, Flusterstorm wins counter wars and REB is a hard counter. Detention Sphere is OK but I don't see it having much good application outside of SnT.

All in all, a combination of Meddling Mage, Thalia, REB, and Flusterstorm is what I suggest.

How about this:

1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Meddling Mage

[catmint]

Haven't tested thalia - maybe you are right that it is good overall and does not hurt us that much in the matchups where we use her - however if you compare detention sphere vs. thalia in the show&tell match, the sphere is miles better (don't even need to cast it) ;). And against Miracles: I think the matchups is quite hard vs. a decent opponent but surely a fight. The way they win is:

- Terminus into Jace - we have no answers or our answers are handled.
- Counterbalancing visions away.
- creating a bunch of 4/4 flying angels.

Against all of those lines detention sphere is pretty helpful. Sure they might have a 3cmc to counter the sphere with balance, but it is much less likely than them having a 1 for red-blast...and of course I do not side out FoW against the Miracle matchup.

Another comment to ReB or Flusterstorm against Show&Tell: Overmaster; also they can just counter back the REB.

[Qweerios]

I like the REB because they interact with the board and the stack against a lot of decks. Miracle-control-blade.dec has Jace, FoW, Counterspell, Snapcaster, and Counterbalance. Cascading into it is almost as good as having it in your hand. I don't think Terminus + Jace is that much of an issue. I have found that in most of my matches against Miracle, they do not have the planing or resources to land that combination while they deal with the pressure and cascade pressure we put on. When they do end up assembling a Terminus + Jace turn, they are often left with less cards in their hand than us, therefore we have a window to break that board position or match the CA. I think the real deal breaker is EoT Entreat for lethal after a game of debilitating 1-for-1.

I agree that Sphere is one of the best cards against SnT. You are probably right in the sense that it is superior to REB when it comes down to Miracle and SnT exclusively.

I could definitely see Detention Sphere replace Krosan Grip though, maybe as a 3-of since it has wider application.

How about this:

1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Meddling Mage
3 Detention Sphere

[catmint]

Good point: with Detention sphere Krosan Grip might not be needed that much. I like the insurance versus counterbalance and batterskulls/Jitte and such. I'll surely test out different SB configration over the next couple of weeks. Maybe there are also other approaches/ideas we haven't considered yet.

Edit: for me Sulfur Elemental is not that important. Lingering souls is usually easily dealt with and thalias/mothers as well. I am more concerned about the big maverick creatures...