I didn't get to test against Show and Tell decks, but I've won a couple of tournaments with Omniscence. I think that Meddling Mage it's not the best hate because he doesn't shut off the combo (since first thing to name should be burning wish) nor slows the opponent plays, or if he does the opponent can Burning Wish for options. Moreover he dies to pyroclasm and REB, which are very likely to be seen post side.
Thalia may be better because slows the game enough for us to have enough time to kill the opponents, and Oblivion ring is an uncouterable removal for whatever is beign show and tell'ed (Oblivion is also better than Detention Sphere aganist Show And Tell because cannot be REB'ed).
However I don't like the idea of splashing a fourth color because I feel that the mana base is already weak: you need your three colors soon for Bolt/Noble/Brainstorm. Maybe a couple of Thorn of Amethyst could improve the matchup, otherwise I'd stick with more counter and a fast clock.
I don't think the 4th color is a problem to be honest, but I also do not see the manabase as weak. Yes you do need all colors early, but compared to Esper or RUG we do not need UU that much (as in Ponder/Brainstorm + Pierce/Stifle). Only double mana spells we have are vendilion clique/Jace but I never had an issue with those. Sure, if things go bad and RUG tempo has Stifle, Wasteland, Bolt for our manasource it might just be GG, but in this scenario having 1 "Tundra aka wasteable island" instead of fetch # 9 or Tropical #3 does not make that much of a difference (Sure it can mean you loose a game in a given situation, but the overall % of that happening is super-low). I've been playing many games with 20 lands + 4 hierarch, so adding this minor vulnerability in a 21 land build is ok with me. To make up for it, I play 1 Ponder instead of the Sylvan Library. Ponder usually resolves (library very often not), can be cast for U and with the immideate draw it is a better manafixer. Cascading into Ponder is also not embarrassing, so I am even considering going down to 3 Fire//Ice and up to 2 Ponder.
In the matchups where we bring in the white spells do not run Wasteland, so a couple of hiearch + 8 blue fetch + 1 Tundra will do the trick here, so manabase is not an issue there.
Concerning your evalution of hatebears vs. Show&Tell (which I too played a lot): I did indeed forget about REB making the Meddling Mage plan a lot less atractive.
Oblivion Ring is better if we want to focus on Show&Tell - if you also want to use it against miracles the sphere is better. Depending on how much of a consideration that is one can make the right decision.
Currently playing: Elves
I really value Sulfur Elemental because a T1 Mom when maverick is on the play = GG if you don't have a Bolt or can't Brainstorm one. It has happened to me before on several occasions, the 3/2 Split Second Flash Mom/Thalia hoser is worth it. It also takes down Death and Taxes quite convincingly.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Has anybody tried Lorescale Coatl. In goldfishing it seems pretty strong with Jace TMS , Ancestral Visions and Brainstorm.
Play Coatl instead of?
In the end just a big beater for 3 mana. 3 mana creatures in legacy have to do a lot more like shardless, vendilion, knight of the reliquary, lingering souls, snapcaster mage...
Sure Sulfur is superstrong against Maverick ... especially in this deck. Question is if it is needed - SB space has to be balanced to support bad matchups. Still not happy with the combo situation.
Currently playing: Elves
Well, I feel sometimes that this deck has no real beef like a deck like Maverick or Aggroloam have lategame.Originally Posted by catmint
And it can just get out of hand pretty fast. Not having evasion sucks but it does pitch to FoW.
Still, was just a question as I have only goldfished the deck. And it makes sense that vanilla creatures are not what we are searching for, although 10/10's for 3 mana seem legit in any deck that wants to beat face.
Squeeze some Izzet Charms in, then. You will have to address this matchup and you should be happy they printed a card like this, which is perfectly maindeckable and never dead.
You either accept that you will have some bad Cascades post board VS Combo and just play Spell Pierce, or you side out your Cascade cards to play a worse version of Thresh post board, or you run cards like Izzet Charm that are flexible, never really dead, but also never really stellar.
If this comes off as offensive or I'm plain and simple missing the point of this deck, I'm sorry, but to me it seems like you are complaining about a problem to which you already have a solution which you simply don't want.
Izzet Charm is never dead. Play that card.
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
Thanks for the input - I did not think about izzet charm - maybe i missed it beeing discussed, but I can't remember actively rejecting it. I am also not "complaining"; I just want to find out the best options to have good matchups against an open field. The top non-linear decks do so and if I choose for this instead, i need to solve some problems. The suggestions in this thread were very helfpul, so I hope you guys are not annoyed by me pondering about combo/[miracles]/canadian, but this is where I see the biggest weaknesses.
Anyway: -2 Fire + 2 charm sounds like a good start. sometimes looting will be even much better than the ice when cascaded into.
Other things that came to my mind are:
Vexing Shusher: Looks supergood against miracles and if show&tell does not have overmaster our counter works for sure.
Judges Familiar: Since it flies exhalted it could be maindeck material to annoy people? Little embarrassing in defense though, but it might be worth to try it out. Not sure what to cut though.
Martyr of the Frost: Again not solving the red-blast problem against show&tell, but at least a decent counterspell you can cascade into. The fact that it is an ability and cant be countered back by counterspells or counterbalance/discarded by duress makes it look very attractive.
Currently playing: Elves
I actually looked through the thread again now and it seems I've been confusing you with someone else. Hm, could've sworn I read something about this thread rejecting Izzet Charm...
Anyways, cutting Fire/Ice for it seems like the obvious choice, yep.
Martyr is interesting. You should definitely try some.
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
A split of fire/ice and charm sounds indeed promising.
Before playing bad cards like Martyr of Frost, you should consider Voidmage Prodigy. Yes, it costs UU to activate and UU to hardcast, but:
.) It's a hardcouter. Martyr looks embarassing if you have 1-2 blue cards in hand.
.) It can sac other Wizards, like Vendilion Clique, or Meddling Mage if necessary.
.) Kai Budde made it.
.) It bashes for 2.
.) You can dodge REB by playing it morphed and then countering their spell for UUU. Not that this is good, but it's at least a possibility.
Also, I don't think the color requirements are an issue because combo decks tend to not ineract with your mana base or your Hierarchs a lot.
UU to cast and UU to activate compared to U to cast and 2 to activate is a big deal. Not that much in terms of colored mana, but if you cannot make it a turn 1 play you can only activate it turn 3.
saccing meddling mage or vendilion clique does not sound like a good plan unless you have 1UUUUU to play another clique the same turn.
the morph trick looks funny because it can surprise a lot of people altough you need to "tap out" for 3 and then have another UUU so thats probably only helping once you untap again.
if the number of blue cards is an issue has to be tested. In my current builds i would have 28+blue cards post board. I'll test a 2/2 split of those in the SB and see how it goes.
Currently playing: Elves
I was under the impression that the idea was to find a Counterspell that you can cascade into. Of course, especially against combo, casting it T1 or T2 IS a big issue. However, unless you board 4 of those, you should not put too much weight on the fact that one is a T1 play while the other isn't. Also, postboard games tend to be slower because they slow down their combo engine as well with boarding in some hate.
I think it is a good plan. If you have Vendilion and Martyr, and they REB or bounce your Martyr or Pyroclasm your board, you die to SnT. If you have Voidmage, you don't.
I tested a 2/2 split of Fire Ice and Izzet Charm against Zoo, Sligh, Goblins, and Dragon Stompy. I know Charm was suggested to improve the SnT and Miracle matchups, but damn, Izzet Charm sucks in practice.
The damage can't be split, it cant hit Planeswalkers, It can't hit life totals.
The draw/discard ability is worthless when topdecking a cascader, and casting it for card filtering is straight card disadvantage.
I also never have any mana open to use it as a Spell Pierce even when I specificaly try to make plays that would leave UR mana open.
I like the Voidmage Prodigy tech. It certainly needs testing though.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
@Catmint: sorry I don't remember and I can't read the last posts, but are you looking for an answer to combo in general or against Show and Tell decks?
For the former I would go with flusterstorm and Rebs (if needed), although I realize is a kind of generic answer that does not considers deck like Aluren or Food chain.
For the latter I'd play Krosan Grip and Venser, shaper savant, in addition to a mix of flusterstorm and rebs:
Krosan Grip - if they show and tell into omniscence or sneak attack we can put into play a creature with a triggered ability, creating a hole in the stack to play krosan before they could play something relevant. Even if we don't have such a creature is not uncommon for an Omniscence deck to play some cantrip/tutor before casting the real threat, so that we can destroy the enchantment.
Venser - he bounces everything they show and tell, he's Fow pitchable, he's out of cascade. I think it's the best incolor answer to show and tell.
Regarding Miracle, honestly I don't see it as a problematic matchup: they have a 1CC wrath that is a VIRTUAL card advantage, but we have REAL card advantage in the form of visions and cascaders (and Jitte to some extent), we have a clock, we have reach and we have counters too. We only need to keep at least two threat in hand while applying pressure, which is easy with cascade and visions.
I am thinking about SB slots vs. combo - Show&Tell is the main consideration, but in Europe you also have to prepare for storm. I first tested Flusterstorm and other counterspells, but what I don't like about that plan is that this is what combo decks excpect and what they are prepared for. Don't get me wrong - we do have game, but since g1 is negative the matchup has to be improved more significantly g2. The idea with permanent based hat is that it is harder for them to interact with and has a synergy with cascade.
Currently playing: Elves
The cascade mechanic is pretty lackluster in the matchups where you can't really afford to tap out. The general consensus about this deck against combo, at least here, is that a mix of REBs, Flusterstorms and Vendilion Cliques are what it makes Show and Tell and Tendrils affordable. You just have to side out as much as BBE (if playing them)/Agent as possible, keeping those numbers to a mininum (Agent still pitches to Force), and become a RUG-midrange aggro/control that beats in the air with flash threats and with Tarmogoyf, carefully considering when to tap out to play it. It is true that those cards are the usual suspects everyone is aware of, but they still deliver a good job when played tightly. Stuff like Martyr of Frost is easily playable around, while Voidmage Prodigy is slow as hell, and these combination of colours doesn't provide any hatebear.
Playing suboptimal soft-hate cards that fit the cascade requirements when cascade cards themselves are bad in these scenarios is not really worth it, and also force you to warp your cantrips to be able to trigger into them.
Otherwise, Sartini used to run 1-2 Mindbreak Trap when ANT was really big; I still think Flusterstorm has way more all-around value, though.
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Sure, that is also what we all played. Problem I see if you side out cascaders for counterspells, you still run bolts & visions. That and the fact that some flusterstorms/REBs are often not enough made me think about permanent alternatives. Maybe you are right that these permanent counterspells are bad, but I like to try out new things. Also 1 Tundra + HIerarch enables white for hatebears. Btw Piceli: Clean up your inbox on thesource, so I can answer your PM.
Currently playing: Elves
How about a black splash for Thoughtseize and/or Cabal Therapy instead of white? I know Hierarch adds white but how about Deathrite Shaman? Hes better as a cascade target and gives us some good MD GY hate without going overboard on Oozes. He also provides additional reach to complement the burn suite.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Black would be the best sideboard color for our concerns, however shaman is much worse than hierarch in this deck I am afraid. Hierarch does so much work with exalted. A 2/2 vanilla on the board is really not doing it. But if you have 1 or 2 hierarchs it is something, especially if the opponent matches your creatures. Also Hierarchs is a lot better in multiples and we are not even assured of shaman giving mana. These are all substantial disadvantages, but we can't even reliably use shamans advantages, since exiling instants/sorcery costs black. So the combo matchup would be a lot better with black, but all the other matchups would suffer significantly without hierarch I think.
Currently playing: Elves
While I agree with Catmint, I've made a little effort to splash black in the deck.
Changing Nobles with Deathrite requires to accomodate the manabase. Right now I play
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 wooded foothills
1 scalding tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
Ideally, at least 2 black mana source are needed, and possibly one basic Swamp:
MAIN
3 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
2 wooded foothills
1 scalding tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 badlands
1 swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Deathrite shaman
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will
3 cabal therapy
SIDE
2 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
3 flusterstorm
2 tormod's crypt
2 trygon predator
3 abrupt decay
2 thoughtseize
Note that I haven't tested the deck at all: it's merely speculation.
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