Yeah, this really makes Mox Opal into a question mark for me... going back to the drawing board on that one.Originally Posted by Undomian
Going back to my A.I. build:
//[- Spellbomb Engine - 11 -]
4 Artificer's Intuition
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Expedition Map
1 Dark Depths
//[- Planeswalkers & Bridges - 9 -]
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 The Abyss
//[- Creatures - 4 -]
4 Baleful Strix
//[- Spells - 13 -]
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
//[- Mana - 23 -]
4 Mox Opal
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland / Dust Bowl
2 Seat of the Synod
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
Something like this, depending on meta:
SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Karakas
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Damnation
1 Meekstone
1 Notion Thief
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Perish
1 Nature's Ruin
1 Pithing Needle
1 Duress
1 Counterspell
E.E. locking
-Artificer's Intuition pitch artifact for E.E., Pitch E.E. for Expedition Map -> search for Academy Ruins, play Academy Ruins, put E.E. on top.
-The new legend rule allows me to set Engineered Explosives at 5 by chaining Mox Opals.
Marit Lage
-Artificer's Intuition pitch artifact for Expedition Map, fetch either Thespian's Stage or Dark Depths if one of the pieces are already on the battlefield; otherwise, grab Academy Ruins and assemble it slowly.
-If answered, recycled with Elixir of Immortality
Dealing with Planeswalkers
-Creeping Tar Pit or Pithing Needle through Artificer's Intuition.
Nihil Spellbomb
-Shrink Tarmogoyfs and Deathrite Shamans, then cantrip. Can also use Relic of Progenitus, but Nihil Spellbomb gives a little more control.
Dealing with Creatures / Attrition Wars
-Baleful Strix + Academy Ruins
-The Abyss
-Jace + Tezz
-E.E. + Academy Ruins
Dealing with Combo
-Board in Chalice of the Void and remove trinkets.
Dealing with Burn
-Board in Elixir of Immortality
Last edited by bruizar; 05-23-2013 at 05:39 PM.
I like your list bruizar. Have you been able to get much testing in with it?
After tonight's weekly Syracuse tourney, I am sure that The Abyss belongs in this deck. I ran 3 main deck and they are just ridiculous against any decks that win by turning creatures sideways. Unfortunately I made a titanic misplay and gave my goblins opponent a free win (losing with an abyss, engineered plague, Jace and a 5/5 talisman of dominance out). Don't ask. I should never play after a 12 hour day and no food in my stomach. Defeated storm in round 1 with Mr. Bryant Cook himself watching next to us also on storm. Next week Bryant!
Today I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. -Oppenheimer
Agreed on The Abyss. I personally like 2 rather than 3 as they're awkward in multiples, but the card is a house against most decks. Damnation is arguably better against tribal and Maverick, but Goblins and Gaddock Teeg were bad matchups to begin with.
Agreed on Damnation versus tribal. To add insult to injury upon myself, I actually had damnation in my hand for many turns before losing to gobos...the time just never seemed right to pop his board. He top decked 2 ringleaders in a row which was a pain in my butt. Can't win 'em all!
Today I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. -Oppenheimer
I have played with a list very similar to this in the past. That experience has brought me closer to this list. I will be trying this out soon. This deck doesn't play with sol lands, which I think make the deck more reliable. I am still contemplating whether or not I should up the number of artifact lands though.
--
Also, I think that Night at Souls' Betrayal is better than Damnation against many Tribal decks.
Night of Souls' Betrayal seems iffy. I feel that the Thopter/Sword combo shod be able to deal with goblins. Elves might be an issue if the get overrun triggers.
Today I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. -Oppenheimer
Night of Souls' Betrayal is interesting because:
-It doesn't die to Abrupt Decay, unlike Engineered Plague
-It plays nicely with a singleton Darkblast (Able to take out up to 3 toughness creatures)
-It kills Dark Confidant, Lingering Souls, Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, unflipped Delvers, and unthresholded Mongeese (although hard to resolve against RUG Delver; mongeese and even goyfs are easy to shrink when you can pitch an artifact to grab nihil spellbomb/elixir of immortality, or relic of progenitus with artificer's intuition, to clear the graveyards)
-Kills death&taxes.dec
-Kills maverick.dec
-Kills elves.dec
-Kills goblins.dec
The biggest problem imo is that it doesn't kill Deathrite Shaman and Stoneforge Mystic, and it does kill your own Baleful Strix. In those cases, The Abyss is simply better, which is why I opted for that card instead. I really want to run Liliana of the Veil but I can't run even more planeswalkers in the deck and the double black makes it a lot harder to maindeck it. The main reason to play Night of Souls' Betrayal, imo, is to combat Esperblade variants running Clique, Confidant and Lingering Souls, while also combatting tribal. (Engineered Plague doesn't hit all the Esperblade targets, and Elves splash black for Abrupt Decay).
that + Relic of Progenitus / Rest in Peace cleans 90% of the board table.
I just can't justify shutting down our Thopter/Sword army. There are few if any legacy decks right now that can beat us once we have our Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry combo out. I have not sided out those four cards yet to date against anything, and in Syracuse we see every legacy deck you can imagine. I'm not saying that Night of Souls' Betrayal is bad, but I see very limited application where I would want it.
Today I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. -Oppenheimer
Fabricate
I do see what you mean. I am currently not running it myself but I am close to including it. My list isn't on the thoptersword plan right now. If you are on the Thoptersword plan, you are probably also playing Thirst for Knowledge. I was thinking whether or not Fabricate is better since you can assemble your combo faster. I am honestly not sure whether or not I would rather have TFK or Fabricate, especially given the fact that you are also running Transmute Artifact. Perhaps it is possible to cut both Transmute Artifact and Thirst for Knowledge in exchange for Fabricate, which would free up some space for other cards.
No Chalice of the Void
Also, the reason why I am not playing Chalice of the Void in the maindeck is because you simply diminish your chances of top-8'ing without Brainstorm. You simply need to play Brainstorm to top 8. Chalice also interferes with my artificer's intuition package, which is another important reason for not including it. If you ask yourself, what tool do I need to win a tournament in legacy, chalice of the void or brainstorm, statistically brainstorm simply wins. Therefore, I suggest people start to let go of chalice of the void when playing blue.
The underlying issue with Goblins is that we often can't block a turn 1 Lackey off Cavern in the early game, and we can't do much about Piledriver in the late game. I've been trying to fix the Lackey problem with some amount of Dimir Charm between the main and side (I play a Mox Diamond build, making this more plausible) then making it a priority to make 5/5s in the late game, but if they get the nut I don't think we stand a chance.
I find Elves to be a positive matchup anyway, between main deck Chalice and access to post board Plague/more EE/Tabernacle.
I also don't think we need NoSB for Esper. The Abyss is already stupidly good against them, and they lose to thopters if we stick the combo for more than 2 turns or so. This matchup is just going to get better once their Jaces no longer kill ours.
[/QUOTE]No Chalice of the Void
Also, the reason why I am not playing Chalice of the Void in the maindeck is because you simply diminish your chances of top-8'ing without Brainstorm. You simply need to play Brainstorm to top 8. Chalice also interferes with my artificer's intuition package, which is another important reason for not including it. If you ask yourself, what tool do I need to win a tournament in legacy, chalice of the void or brainstorm, statistically brainstorm simply wins. Therefore, I suggest people start to let go of chalice of the void when playing blue.[/QUOTE]
Nothing is sacred. Not even brainstorm. Chalice is much much better in THIS deck than brainstorm is. since you dont play sol lands it might be better for you, but tbh i think your deck is starting to look more like a bad countertop deck at this point. The reason this deck is so good is because of turn 1 chalice and turn 2 planeswalkers giving you so many free wins, and youre starting to stray away from that, which basically makes it a completely different deck.
If you are still running sol lands, dont cut chalice. period. Chalice is why the deck is positioned so well right now.
You dont need brainstorms to top 8 anything. That is a ridiculous claim and I'm living proof that its not true.
Not to mention brainstorm is only great if you have a good number of fetch lands to make it shine and brainstorm is THE most skill intensive card in Legacy at the moment. So many players just do not know how/when to properly play Brainstorm. Chalice is probably the best card in our deck right now.
Today I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. -Oppenheimer
How useful is Devour in Shadow or Strangling Soot for dealing with a weenie offensive?
Both of those options seem pretty awful. Why not just play Disfigure if you're looking for removal? Hell, there's even Doom Blade/Go for the Throat/Smother/Snuff Out if you're running Chalice. Infest exists too if you're looking for a sweeper along those lines...
You are right. Nothing is sacred. Neither Chalice nor Brainstorm. You are also right about the fact that Sol Lands play an integral part in choosing to play Chalice of the Void or not. I would say Sol Lands are to Chalice of the Void as Islands are to Brainstorm. The problem here is that this deck plays both Sol Land and Island. Judging from the statistics you could argue that Brainstorm represents a bunch more wins than Chalice of the Void, but you are also right that your individual skill determines your individual outcome, not the outcome of the hive mind.
The difference between my A.I. Planeswalker list and the U/B Planeswalker (As piloted SolemnWurmcoil or ThopterSword) is exactly the difference between choosing for brainstorm or chalice of the void, and putting in an artifact centric combo package.
I understand the criticism and comparison to Counterbalance; however, Artificer's Intuition plays much differently. Counterbalance pre-empts players from playing cards where as Artificer's Intuition is able to answer resolved threats while also locking the opponent out and requiring only A.I. to function instead of top+counterbalance. It is a one-card combo/control card.
Creatures [6]
4 Baleful Strix
1 Batterskull
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Instants [4]
4 Force of Will
Sorceries [4]
4 Transmute Artifact
Planeswalkers [8]
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Artifacts [16]
1 Trinisphere
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
4 Talisman of Dominance
4 Chalice of the Void
Lands [22]
1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Perish
2 Infest ( better VS Teeg and easier to cast then damnation )
2 Negate
2 Demir Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
The main difference between my list and the SCG's is the mana base. I don't see the benefit of playing Darkslick Shores and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth when you have the opportunity to play more fetches (specially when you have 4 Jace's in your deck ), have a more stable mana base and be more resilient to wasteland
I have a question for people running the Chalice version.
Why run Nihil Spellbomb over Tormod's Crypt? Against a deck like Reanimator (or even Dredge), you are going to CotV on 1.
Also, with Chris Andersen's list, can somebody please explain to me the Duress, Pithing Needle, Meekstone, and Grafdigger's Cage in the board?
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...1&iddeck=79611
Against combo (where you would bring in Duress), you want CotV on 1 to stop cantrips, their discard, and mana acceleration.
Pithing Needle is going to name cards like SDT, Sneak Attack, Deathrite Shaman. For granted, Abrupt Decay blows up Chalice, but why build in redundancies to our own deck?
Likewise, Meekstone comes in against RUG. CotV at 1 is house vs. RUG.
Can somebody please explain?
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
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