[Deck] 12 Post

[nimkee]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but how are opponents needing four or five cards to remove a single Oracle?

Sorry, poor wording from my phone.

Its not them directly spending cards to get rid of oracle, but rather how much CA I get off it. I sometimes immediately get two lands off the top of my library. If they don't remove it right away, and with all the shuffle effects sometimes I'll get 4 or 5 lands off of Oracle, which is pretty bonkers. At that point I usually don't care if it gets removed.

[DavidHernandez]

...even though Oracle only lets you play one extra land? You can't play more than 2 off the Oracle, including your regular land drop. You only get to use the top of the Library as an additional area from which to pull a land. Even so, I can see where there is a benefit. I tested it this weekend and didn't like it for the cost. I think Exploration works better at a single G for casting. The CA on either of those options can be fantastic, and the acceleration seems to help finish games much sooner.

Dave

[nimkee]

Oracle lets me play one extra land but I rarely play it out on turn 3 or 4, and I'll play lands from the top of my library before my hand if possible, hence the CA. I only have 2 of them at most so often people don't see them and side out some removal so they stick around longer, hence getting a few or more lands off the top of my deck.

While it can be great, I still don't like it better than warping wail. WW helps me win combo matches like Elves, Reanimator, and occasionally Storm.

I am interested in Exploration, but am trying to stay away from more 1 drops, as 12 post already has a bit of a weakness towards chalice. 4 Rotations, 4 Maps, 2-3 needles, 2-4 Candelabras plus whatever else people are running (4 ancient stirrings or 4 brainstorm, plus ponder...). That's literally half the spells in the deck.

The acceleration is very important in games where people land an early blood moon / chalice / planeswalker and you need to get to that 7th, 8th, or 10th mana.

I tried explore last night but to be honest it just feels worse than other options unless you are facing down a chalice deck. I kept wishing it was an ancient stirrings.

I did get someone last night by cropping for a DD with a blood moon in play, and then K gripping the moon eot of their next turn. With the new rule Vesuva gets a lot worse, and DD a lot better. I might have to give some of the 9 Post lists (Gr, BUG, Junk) a little more attention.

...even though Oracle only lets you play one extra land? You can't play more than 2 off the Oracle, including your regular land drop. You only get to use the top of the Library as an additional area from which to pull a land. Even so, I can see where there is a benefit. I tested it this weekend and didn't like it for the cost. I think Exploration works better at a single G for casting. The CA on either of those options can be fantastic, and the acceleration seems to help finish games much sooner.

Dave

[mykatdied]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but how are opponents needing four or five cards to remove a single Oracle?

In reference to the occasion that with extra land drops and access to your top deck you may get the value of 4 or 5 cards and then they use 1 removal spell which is fine since you got 4 or 5 cards off oracle.

[k_omega]

I took a U/G Obstructionist+Grapple build to a 70-person tournament today and went 4-3 to narrowly miss top 16.

4 Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Tropical Island, Misty Rainforest
2 Vesuva
1 Verdant Catacombs, Forest, Island, Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Glacial Chasm, Eye of Ugin

1 New Emrakul, 1 Old Emrakul, 1 New Ulamog
4 Primeval Titan
2 Nimble Obstructionist

4 Brainstorm, Grapple with the Past, Expedition Map
3 Crop Rotation, Show and Tell, Candelabra
2 Sylvan Library
1 Moment's Peace, Cyclonic Rift, Warping Wail

Sideboard:
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Krosan Grip
2 Faerie Macabre, Moment's Peace
1 World Breaker, Blue Elemental Blast, Tabernacle, Warping Wail

This is the list Rock Lee posted with -2 Snapcaster, -1 Warping Wail, +1 Moment's Peace, +1 Cyclonic Rift in the main and a slightly different sideboard. Pre-tournament testing left me annoyed with Snapcaster because using it on anything other than Wail means I need to spend two land drops on colored sources which was often not optimal. I wasn't getting a lot of value out of the 2/1 either. On the other hand, Cyclonic Rift is a maindeckable answer to Chalice and hate enchantments that can double as a board wipe (otherwise lacking in either build), and Moment's Peace contains creature swarms and has synergy with the Grapples.

Match results and observations:
2-0 vs. eldrazi
2-1 vs. U/W Mentor with Scepter/Chant
2-0 vs. white eldrazi
0-2 vs. Omni-Sneak (On camera here, but the match is unremarkable unless you count mind-boggling actions from my opponent as comedic value, so I won't make my usual minute-by-minute rundown)
2-0 vs. D&T
1-2 vs. U/W Stoneblade (losing to Back to Basics)
1-2 vs. Grixis Delver

Grapple was satisfactory but unimpressive. It helped win a game by recurring a Primeval Titan and likely cost me a game by milling over a Candelabra that would have kept a Back to Basics in check. I boarded out copies in every match because I didn't really need it and it would be awkward and game-losing to mill over, for example, a Krosan Grip. Realistically, any two-mana instant that does something generically relevant could take this slot.

Obstructionist was decent. I plan to test three copies, not because it was good but because I didn't draw it often enough to decide whether it was good. I did get to force a Crop Rotation through a Chalice on 1 with it. Costing three mana to cycle makes it poor at countering early Wastelands, though, so a fourth Crop Rotation and/or a Needle/Spyglass is in order.

Note the 2-0 victories over two eldrazi decks, which is usually an extremely difficult matchup. These are almost entirely due to Show and Tell and the fact that Grapple and Sylvan Library do not cost 1.

Changes:
-1 Grapple, +1 Nimble Obstructionist

Other than these the numbers worked out very well.

[DavidHernandez]

Yeah, I didn't like the Grapples or the Snapcaster Mages. I also thought the Obstructionists were too slow. They're all working together so I think if you take out any number of those pieces you break the Rock Lee build and might as well try something else. I used Ponders in my last go with this and really liked them a lot. I also think Moments Peace could be a main deck choice for me in my meta.

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[k_omega]

They're all working together so I think if you take out any number of those pieces you break the Rock Lee build and might as well try something else. I used Ponders in my last go with this and really liked them a lot.

You certainly lose synergy by making cuts, but not so much that the build "breaks" completely. Grapple is still reasonable without Snapcaster because it still digs for and recurs Cloudposts, clears away junk after a Brainstorm or Library trigger, and opens up lines that weren't available before - recurring Glacial Chasm or Bog for instance. Nimble Obstructionist might be versatile enough to play without any Grapples, you just shouldn't rely on it for Wasteland protection.

I'm going to try Perilous Voyage in place of Grapples. It's "removal" that, like Grapple, can (often) reset the top of the deck after a Brainstorm or Library and is relevant whenever the opponent has targetable nonland permanents. Unlike Grapple, you won't blindly dump key one-ofs into the graveyard, and it actually affects the board.

[Valleysdai]

Hey all, I'm looking at building (maybe) UG 12 post but I'm curious about several things:

Why is exploration and Life from the loam not used?

What do people reckon is the optimal number of candelabras?

What are the worst match ups for post?

Thanks

[cwcomposer]

Why is exploration and Life from the loam not used?

There are builds that try to ramp with Explore and Oracle of Mul Daya.

What do people reckon is the optimal number of candelabras?

In a UG build with Trinket Mage, probably one. In a mono-green or colorless-green build that is trying to ramp, as many as the full playset. Basically the answer is any number between zero and four, based on how much money you want to spend.

What are the worst match ups for post?

Based on my 0-4 experience last night, Lands, ANT/Storm, UR Delver, and Death and Taxes, haha. Realistically anything that can aggressively attack your mana with land destruction, and anything that kills you around turn three or four (combo and aggro) are bad matchups.

[nimkee]

There are builds that try to ramp with Explore and Oracle of Mul Daya.



In a UG build with Trinket Mage, probably one. In a mono-green or colorless-green build that is trying to ramp, as many as the full playset. Basically the answer is any number between zero and four, based on how much money you want to spend.



Based on my 0-4 experience last night, Lands, ANT/Storm, UR Delver, and Death and Taxes, haha. Realistically anything that can aggressively attack your mana with land destruction, and anything that kills you around turn three or four (combo and aggro) are bad matchups.

DnT is generally a great matchup. Also, if you are familiar with the matchup, then Cg has a decent Lands matchup. Its tricky but favorable. Omega-k has a good recorded match somewhere on twitch that shows the nuance of the match.

Storm is rough, but I dont think Ive ever won against UR irl. Ive beaten people on xmage a couple of times but it requires them not getting pop.

My meta is a bunch of turbo depths, control players of various nature, and some DnT so 12 post does fine here.

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[k_omega]

Why is exploration and Life from the loam not used?

The game plan is to get Cloudposts into play and protected as soon as possible without dying first, and then let your top-end cards carry the game. Loam digs very slowly (after all, you can just use Expedition Map), and getting a Cloudpost exiled by DRS sets you way back. You also get awkward situations where you dredge an Eldrazi with a shuffle trigger into the graveyard, at which point the Loams become useless. Most importantly, Loam doesn't directly answer threats from the opponent. Unlike the Lands deck, we don't have Punishing Fire and Wastelands + Tabernacle to fight opposing creatures. I suppose you could build a Cloudpost deck that uses those cards, but then you'd be a Lands deck that spontaneously shuffles away its own graveyard. A less-appreciated aspect of 12 Post is that your "combo" has nothing to do with the graveyard; changing that makes you vulnerable to more sideboard cards and it's never been worth it when I've tried.

Exploration only does anything if you have more than one land per turn to play. That is often the case on turns 1-2, but past that it's a dead card because you usually only have one land per turn to play anyway.

What do people reckon is the optimal number of candelabras?

It depends on the build. Before Top got banned I played a G/W build with Primeval Titans and no Candelabras and cashed an SCG open with it. I've done OK at the FNM level by playing Explore in place of Candelabras I didn't own. Currently I'm playing a U/G build that uses 3, and recently used 4 in a Colorless/green (C/g) version that leaned hard on Maze of Ith. If you play the C/g Maze of Ith builds, you will notice an enormous improvement from Candelabras 1-3, and a slight improvement from the fourth. I wouldn't play that version at all if I didn't have at least 2.

The big picture is that it's helpful but not absolutely necessary to have a card that can speed up your game plan. That can be Candelabra, Show and Tell + Primeval Titan, or Explore if you're on a tight budget. I recommend starting with a build that plays Primeval Titan and no Candelabras, and then you can invest in Candelabras over time if you want to. Aside from the C/g builds, they are an improvement but not an absolute requirement.

What are the worst match ups for post?

12 Post wins by leveraging a huge mana advantage. Our endgame is practically unbeatable (infinite turns, casting perhaps multiple Eldrazi per turn), we just need the time and mana to deploy it. As a result, the only matchups that are fundamentally unfavorable for us are those where the opponent can create a superior mana advantage first:

1) Eldrazi Stompy - In the early turns, a series of 2-mana lands produces more mana than a series of Cloudposts. Chalice on 1 makes the game even more difficult since we play a lot of 1-drops. But if the game goes long enough you become favored. The trick is getting the game to go long, and it's a lot easier with Show and Tell.
2) Storm and other mana-spell decks - They can get ~8 mana on turn 1, 2, or 3 and convert that into a win, which is faster than we can do the same.
3) Aluren - In effect, their combo "produces" infinite mana as soon as they assemble it.
4) Omni-tell and Sneak Attack decks - The mana savings are obvious.

Unlike these decks, we have the advantage that our mana engine cannot be countered or discarded and as a result we are massively favored against control and at least reasonably favored against the grindy strategies of the format. It also turns out that sideboard cards (in particular, spheres to put the mana advantage back in our favor), Pithing Needles, and utility lands with Crop Rotation can be enough to beat many of the combo decks.

[Valleysdai]

Thanks for the advice guys, I've got 1 candelabra and have an idea of trying mirage mirror as a substitute and give more redundancy. I'm at the starting stages of getting the deck together.

[prdgchild]

can someone please post a mono green list that this group could get behind? i get that adding blue or even red really improves the deck but i just want to settle on a "fun" mono green list..... help!

[cwcomposer]

[The following is also posted in the Facebook group.]

After playing three weeks at my small, five- or six-person local meta and one week at a larger store, my record with this CG build is 0-3, 1-2, 0-3, 0-5:

4 Warping Wail
2 All Is Dust
1 Spatial Contortion

4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
4 Candelabra of Tawnos

2 Ugin, the Spirit Drgon
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
7 Forest
1 Wastes
2 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale
1 Karakas
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin

• My consistent problems are as follows:

(1) Land destruction. Obviously. This still is a problem, and the smart Lands players just immediately chain Ghost Quarters together and run me out of basics even though I play eight of them. I've always been afraid of going all-in on non-basics and thought this build would be more resilient because of the high basic land count. It is not. Which leads me to...

(2) 8 basic lands is too many. It sucks being a ramp deck and having four mana on turn four because you've played a Cloudpost and three forests. I have also never once needed Wastes. The thought process was that it's there against Blood Moon, but the one time that's come up, it's not colorless that I needed... it was green.

(3) The deck doesn't DO anything. I find that when things are going well, I build up the manabase and have tons of mana... but it takes forever to draw one of the four threats or a way to find Eye of Ugin and THEN find a threat. During that time I usually end up distracted trying to keep up on board, dealing with threats small and large (which often requires my Crop Rotations and Expedition Maps to search up things other than Posts or Eye of Ugin), which slows things down even more.

• I think the problems are:

(1) The manabase doesn't help a singular goal. Too many basics is a nonbo with ramp.

(2) There are not enough threats. Four high-cost finishers (plus 2 Ugin, which is a sloooowww finisher) is not enough, especially against Wasteland decks where you never make it to ten mana.

(3) The mana curve is too high. Yes, it's great when everything goes according to plan, but it sucks being stuck at six or seven mana and slowly dying.

• Proposed solutions:

(1) Cut Wastes. Cut some number of Forests. Add some number of Ancient Tomb. Possibly add one or two Cavern of Souls because...

(2 and 3) Add more threats at a lower CMC. Some number (3?) of Wurmcoil Engine to help against the aggro and burn matchups and some number (2?) of Thought-Knot Seer to help against combo and to get a (hopefully) super early threat out there. Cavern of Souls could help here.

• Proposed changes (ten cards):

+3 Ancient Tomb
+2 Cavern of Souls
+3 Wurmcoil Engine
+2 Thought-Know Seer

-1 Emrakul, the Promised End
-1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
-1 Tabernacle (move to the sideboard; I rarely use it locally)
-1 Wastes
-1 Vesuva (coming in tapped is rough, as is the new interaction with Blood Moon)
-3 Forest
-1 Thespian's Stage (too slow, rarely use it for neat tricks)
-1 Expedition Map (too slow, although it often eats the first Abrupt Decay or Krosan Grip)

• The new list would look like this:

4 Warping Wail
2 All Is Dust
1 Spatial Contortion

4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Pithing Needle
3 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
4 Candelabra of Tawnos

2 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ugin, the Spirit Drgon
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Ancent Tomb
4 Forest
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts!

Thanks!

[ChiggyWig]

[The following is also posted in the Facebook group.]

After playing three weeks at my small, five- or six-person local meta and one week at a larger store, my record with this CG build is 0-3, 1-2, 0-3, 0-5:

4 Warping Wail
2 All Is Dust
1 Spatial Contortion

4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
4 Candelabra of Tawnos

2 Ugin, the Spirit Drgon
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
7 Forest
1 Wastes
2 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale
1 Karakas
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin

• My consistent problems are as follows:

(1) Land destruction. Obviously. This still is a problem, and the smart Lands players just immediately chain Ghost Quarters together and run me out of basics even though I play eight of them. I've always been afraid of going all-in on non-basics and thought this build would be more resilient because of the high basic land count. It is not. Which leads me to...

(2) 8 basic lands is too many. It sucks being a ramp deck and having four mana on turn four because you've played a Cloudpost and three forests. I have also never once needed Wastes. The thought process was that it's there against Blood Moon, but the one time that's come up, it's not colorless that I needed... it was green.

(3) The deck doesn't DO anything. I find that when things are going well, I build up the manabase and have tons of mana... but it takes forever to draw one of the four threats or a way to find Eye of Ugin and THEN find a threat. During that time I usually end up distracted trying to keep up on board, dealing with threats small and large (which often requires my Crop Rotations and Expedition Maps to search up things other than Posts or Eye of Ugin), which slows things down even more.

• I think the problems are:

(1) The manabase doesn't help a singular goal. Too many basics is a nonbo with ramp.

(2) There are not enough threats. Four high-cost finishers (plus 2 Ugin, which is a sloooowww finisher) is not enough, especially against Wasteland decks where you never make it to ten mana.

(3) The mana curve is too high. Yes, it's great when everything goes according to plan, but it sucks being stuck at six or seven mana and slowly dying.

• Proposed solutions:

(1) Cut Wastes. Cut some number of Forests. Add some number of Ancient Tomb. Possibly add one or two Cavern of Souls because...

(2 and 3) Add more threats at a lower CMC. Some number (3?) of Wurmcoil Engine to help against the aggro and burn matchups and some number (2?) of Thought-Knot Seer to help against combo and to get a (hopefully) super early threat out there. Cavern of Souls could help here.

• Proposed changes (ten cards):

+3 Ancient Tomb
+2 Cavern of Souls
+3 Wurmcoil Engine
+2 Thought-Know Seer

-1 Emrakul, the Promised End
-1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
-1 Tabernacle (move to the sideboard; I rarely use it locally)
-1 Wastes
-1 Vesuva (coming in tapped is rough, as is the new interaction with Blood Moon)
-3 Forest
-1 Thespian's Stage (too slow, rarely use it for neat tricks)
-1 Expedition Map (too slow, although it often eats the first Abrupt Decay or Krosan Grip)

• The new list would look like this:

4 Warping Wail
2 All Is Dust
1 Spatial Contortion

4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Pithing Needle
3 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
4 Candelabra of Tawnos

2 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ugin, the Spirit Drgon
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Ancent Tomb
4 Forest
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts!

Thanks!

Why not Primeval Titan instead of Wurmcoil Engine? It gets immediate value even if it gets Swords to Plowshares'd, ramps you directly to your endgame, can gain you life (with Glimmerposts or Glacial Chasm), tramples over Strix and True-Name, and if you get to attack even one time you basically just win the game. You even already have Cavern of Souls to make it uncounterable. Maybe it's just me, but I am a huge fan of Prime Time in this deck.

[cwcomposer]

Why not Primeval Titan instead of Wurmcoil Engine?

Primeval Titan is my second favorite card ever, but in CG builds it's weaker due to the double-green casting cost and because you can't find it off Ancient Stirrings. Hence the Wurmcoil Engines. At least that's the thought process I've been going on.

[maCHOOga]

It's been a while since I posted, but I'm contemplating getting the old band back together in preparation for SCG DC. Did anyone 12post at Eternal Weekend?
{I was there, but I was on the grixis control plan...which I'm ready to move on. I miss Primetime too much.}
I saw a BUG hybrid build that placed well at a tournament so I'm going to start testing that this week on mtgo, but as always I worried about its color stability.

[Postman]

It's been a while since I posted, but I'm contemplating getting the old band back together in preparation for SCG DC. Did anyone 12post at Eternal Weekend?
{I was there, but I was on the grixis control plan...which I'm ready to move on. I miss Primetime too much.}
I saw a BUG hybrid build that placed well at a tournament so I'm going to start testing that this week on mtgo, but as always I worried about its color stability.

No need to worry about the color stability Playing BUG Post, my colored manabase looks like 3 Tropical Island, 1 Bayou, 1 Underground Sea, 1 Island, 1 Forest, 1 Bojuka Bog, 4 Misty Rainforest. Works fine for me! And please, give Toxic Deluge a try. Depending on your local meta, up to 3 copies main can be huge.

[malfie13]

I dont know if he posted, buti played a 12 post drazi player in rd 9 or so in the x2 bracket. While he did drop after losing he had a pretty cool, if not stock, list. I didnt really see it coming until after g1. X2in rd 9 was pretty good. I hated knocking off a 12 post brother deck. Nice guy, good player. I basically won the race to newlamog.

[Prdgychild]

I dont know if he posted, buti played a 12 post drazi player in rd 9 or so in the x2 bracket. While he did drop after losing he had a pretty cool, if not stock, list. I didnt really see it coming until after g1. X2in rd 9 was pretty good. I hated knocking off a 12 post brother deck. Nice guy, good player. I basically won the race to newlamog.

mono green? What variant?