''The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.'' Lord Eddard Stark - A Game of Thrones
-Adsum
-ChrisMeister on MTGO
Had an fnm tournament yesterday and took UG post. I did quite poor 1-3, it was a mixture of bad hands (I'm not good at mulligan decisions haha) and unfortunate draws.
R1 infect 0-2
G1 he goes all in and I crop for a maze to stop it. The he proceeds to build as my draws splutter.
G2 he slowly ticks up and when I try to maze he gives hexproof and pumps
R2 mono black 0-2
The deck is all about discard and value creatures like nighthawk
G1 he hymns me a few times and I lose needed lands and get poked to death by 2/Xs
G2 I get chasm and have to sacrifice it on my last turn where I hope to draw a glimmer post for life gain, I get and play dark depths, I see a possible out and during his attack step I mirage mirror as a copy of dark depths but he wastelands in response to the trigger.
R3 miracles
G1 we both build up our resources, I mapped for tabernacle a couple turns before they miracle entreat for 4 with a monastery mentor and jtms onboard, by that time I had enough to play tabernacle and emrakul the promised end. They counter the emrakul but I take their turn and sax all their guys, then give them only lands. NeXT turn newlamog and scoop.
G2 - they got an early back to basics and I had an amulet of vigor in play (thankfully) so I built up and staged/vesuva'd to get more basics while getting glimmer posts to prevent and in the end remove all the poke damage. In turns I cast prime time and they scooped.
R4 tin fins
G1 they can't find their combo and I get infinite turns.
G2 & 3 I try to stop them but they combo and win.
Overall I have made a list if tests to try out (quite spicy choices) and cut either cards that were bad or that had enough redundancy/ lowers me keeping bad hands.
Sorry it was actually bGR http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1022145 although punishing fire / inferno seem like excellent inclusions for a list running red.
I changed up my list a bit and have been having roughly 70%W/30%L with the deck. Match ups I've been struggling with are: Grixis Delver and Combo. The rest of the meta is fair game I'd say. Late game with this deck is completely nuts.
''The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.'' Lord Eddard Stark - A Game of Thrones
-Adsum
-ChrisMeister on MTGO
It's a mixed bag.
Pros:
It stops Wasteland
Clouldpost comes into play untapped and still taps for a lot of mana.
Cons:
Kills OUR utility Lands, including Glimmerpost's trigger, Vesuva, and Eye of Ugin.
It's probably worth testing, but I suspect a deck utilizing it and Cloudpost would look a lot different than a standard control build.
"Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void, empty, and become wind."
I posted this on the 12Post FB group a few days ago, which is my typical first place I go to post news about the deck.
Even though it's been two weeks since GP Santa Clara, it's still important for me to share the results from my Legacy portion of the team event. My teammates, Bryan Rockenbach and Sam Wolloch, are serious grinders of all Magic tournament formats and played Temur Energy in Standard and Storm in Modern, respectively. Even though they both play Legacy frequently, they sought my talents for the eternal format, which I play exclusively. Kudos to both of those guys for not only playing a solid 14 rounds of Magic, but allowing and even supporting my choice of deck, a relatively untested BUG version of 12Post. This is the list that I took to the event:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Vesuva
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Cyclonic Rift
3 Show and Tell
4 Crop Rotation
1 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Expedition Map
Sideboard:
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
1 Show and Tell
2 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Despite only playing the list in a small local tournament and a few Legacy leagues online beforehand, I was still able to achieve a 9-5 personal record at the GP, contributing to a team record of 10-4 and a 15th place finish. My experience with the 12Post archetype in general, combined with the new removal effects provided by the black splash, reassured me of the strategy's power in a post-Top world. It also gave me a breath of fresh air for the archetype; the deck plays a little different than Post builds of old and presents a welcome challenge for me going forward.
Here's a list of my fourteen matchups, my personal result, and the team's result for that round:
Day 1
Round 1 - Burn (Won, Team Won)
Round 2 - Infect (Lost, Team Won)
Round 3 - RUG Delver (Lost, Team Won)
Round 4 - UW RIP/Helm Combo (Won, Team Won)
Round 5 - Sneak and Show (Lost, Team Won)
Round 6 - Grixis Delver (Won, Team Won)
Round 7 - BUG Delver (Won, Team Won)
Round 8 - Sneak and Show (Lost, Team Lost)
Day 2
Round 9 - Czech Pile (Won, Team Won)
Round 10 - 4C (no R) Stoneblade (Won, Team Lost)
Round 11 - Sneak and Show (Lost, Team Lost)
Round 12 - Turbo Depths (Won, Team Won)
Round 13 - RG Lands (this was Jarvis Yu) (Won, Team Won)
Round 14 - Grixis Delver (Won, Team Lost)
As you can see, I was carried on the first day by my teammates, but was able to redeem myself and play much better for the team on the second. There's plenty of things for me to think about regarding the list in the future, but three critical issues came to mind right after the tournament:
1) The build's weakness to Sneak and Show. Sneak and Show has always been a rough matchup for 12Post, but this version in particular is especially cold to it. I intend to play a Post build at large GP/SCG Legacy tournaments, and Sneak and Show will most definitely be prevalent, especially in he hands of pros at GP's. I'm not yet sure if I can simply swap some sideboard cards, or if an entire change in philosophy or playstyle is necessary. But I lost all three of my matches against the deck and definitely need to change something.
2) Pithing Needles should be maindeck. Maindecking at least three Needles was something I always did with all previous 12Post versions. After seeing the original BUG list that I based mine around, I was skeptical of only two copies of Needle in the board. Since I was already going out on such a limb trying this new build, I decided to stick with most of the original card choices and only run the two sideboard Needles. In hindsight, I should have went with my conscience on this. Needle has always been a great safety blanket against the most prevalent hate card, Wasteland. Even having them in matchups where you don't need it (and you can usually find at least something to name with it) still does not outweigh the relief of having one when you do need it. Also, Needle is at its best during game one, when the opponent is unlikely to have much artifact removal for it. Lastly, the aforementioned Sneak and Show matchup is at least helped a bit by including Needle. During the first game, they cannot remove a resolved Needle. If I can see that they are on Sneak and Show soon enough and can land a Needle, then they are forced to go the more dangerous Show and Tell route to victory.
3) Uncertainty over Deathrite Shaman inclusion. Whenever I was able to use a Deathrite for mana-making unhindered, he was incredible. More often than not, however, there was some sort of limitation to using him. Sometimes he would eat an otherwise dead removal spell (Lightning Bolt would be okay, preserving my life total a bit, but giving Fatal Push a target felt so bad). But his most typical drawback would be being negated by an opposing Deathrite. Usually a bright opponent would realize that I would need him to make mana, and would always keep their Deathrite up to cut me off a mana. Perhaps just doing the same to the opponent makes Deathrite worthwhile for me? Though having him did have its advantages. As an extra body, there were times where he would prevent Liliana of the Veil from being an out against an otherwise single big creature. He can even be a blocker against an unflipped Delver or a Glistener Elf. The verdict is still out on whether Deathrite Shaman should be included at all.
Again, I apologize for responding so late about the Grand Prix, but better late than never I guess. I will go back and answer the questions over this build that I neglected a month ago. This tournament performance, while not my best, was still successful and a ton of fun, and I look forward to fine-tuning the BUG list even more.
So sorry that this is over a month later, but at least I have more data to provide in that time.
1) I was concerned about the life loss of Toxic Deluge at first as well, but in practice, the amount of life you pay is well worth it. I typically find myself casting it for 2 life, to remove everything on a Grixis Delver board besides Angler. Occasionally I'll end up paying 3, in order to wipe Leovold and company. Again, a manageable amount. Deluge is similar to Glacial Chasm in that you need to plan accordingly when choosing to use it, specifically not playing it too late. Anytime you can afford to risk the life loss, Deluge has proven to be incredible, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it show up more frequently in control builds that can fit it in (not just 12Post). It's an extremely versatile creature removal spell that really is only limited by the cost of life. I think only in a matchup like Eldrazi Stompy, where opponents are actually casting larger midrange creatures would the life loss be too much.
2) I have not tried Collective Brutality yet, but it seems worthy of testing due to its versatility. I would probably use the Duress and Disfigure modes together if I could afford to pitch another card. The card might be in competition for spots with Thoughtseize, which others have recommended that I try with a black splash.
3) The one-of Sylvan Library was basically a replacement for the third Ponder. There are several reasons and situations that I prefer Ponder over Library: it is a better topdeck late in the game when you want action right away, it ups the blue count for Force of Will, and it can be flashbacked via Snapcaster. Library is a decent replacement for Top once it gets in play, but I hate the idea of including more than one and possibly drawing a second one within the course of the game. I know a lot of people still include multiple Libraries (in other decks as well) despite being bad in multiples, so maybe I should reconsider running more. The times Library did show up and was not countered or destroyed, it was excellent.
I have noticed that the information on the FB group is comparable to what you find on here. Different information, but comparable in usefulness. It's worth making an account if you want to receive max information on this build we all love.
Thank you for the suggestion. I think some discard spells would make use of the inclusion of black, more than just the board control it provides in my current list. As far as combo hate, I have always found discard to be subpar to counterspells, however (in all flavors of decks).
I like your build and congrats at the GP. I'll be heading to GP London (EDIT: it is my first GP) at the weekend and I'm aiming to run the UG version with a couple of interesting alterations that could actually help in various match ups (S&T included).
I did some testing against miracles and dragon stomp. The results were extremely promising and I managed to get one of the best case scenarios to occur.
Last edited by Valleysdai; 01-24-2018 at 07:20 PM.
@into_play
Thanks for your feedback. I was getting nervous since it took soo long. Congrats once more on the finish.
1) The build's weakness to Sneak and Show.
The list is weak to red in general in my experience. That's probably why Steve included 2x BEB, and I've been happy running two copies in the board. Though, i guess we could run more red hate. Maybe go for beb over FOW?
2) Pithing Needles should be main deck.
I would tend to disagree on this issue. The deck space is so limited I don't see what I could cut to incorporate three needles. Currently, I'm happy with two in the board. However, I do agree that needle is a great card for the deck.
3) Uncertainty over Deathrite Shaman inclusion.
Because we often use shaman exclusively as a mana producer (we don't need to drain our opponents or gain life, though it's sometimes handy), I've started to test a build with Birds of paradise and Sylvan Caryatid. Currently, i still can't say if I would drop shaman, but it may be the way to go forward. The combined mana producing/fixing power of those two helps speed out those titans and fight moon/magus/B2B. Correction: Forgot to mention that Shaman does offer GY hate against many decks so that's another plus for him over birds/caryatid.
1) I was concerned about the life loss of Toxic Deluge
Toxic deluge is the linchpin of BUG post and probably the best black card we can run. I tried to run more than two main board, but it didn't feel right on the mana curve. I've beaten Eldrazi stompy with it as well. I don't see a problem paying 5 or even more life in some situations. We can quickly recover when titan goes online.
2) I have not tried Collective Brutality
I've tested with brutality but didn't like it. We often don't have a card to pitch (same goes for fow), and the one for one removal just doesn't seem to do enough on the curve at 2cmc. Additionally, it discards only sorceries and instants, so that's another weakness of the card. I don't like discard for our deck in general. Though Steve did include two thoughtseize in the latest build, I don't use it, since we have enough ways of fighting combo, against which discard would be used in my modest opinion. Though I may have been misboarding it and I should board it in against other decks as well?
3) The one-of Sylvan Library
I am still not sure whether to use one or two. The card is so powerful that I think two is the right number. If nothing else every opponent forces it if he can, so it's a good counter magnet to clear the way forward. Currently, i'm running two.
P.s. I also tested night's whisper as a one-off. It got me out of many ugly top deck situations. What are your thought's about this card?
P.p.s. I tried to include Baleful Strix in my BUG FoW attempts. How do you feel about running this bird?
Last edited by MechTactical; 01-25-2018 at 05:00 AM.
I think 1 copy of Library is best. Assuming it stays in play, the card selection over multiple turns is worth more than a one-shot cantrip in my experience. After my last post I have also decided to never run more than one though.
1) I had one BEB in my sideboard when I experimented with Cgu and U/G builds and was very impressed by it.
2) Some brief testing shows that -2 Snapcaster and +2 Needle from into_play's list seems to work well. Snapcaster was too taxing on the colored mana anyway when I played it.
Night's Whisper) I would play it if I were playing straight BG, but if I had access to U I think more Ponders would be better.
Baleful Strix) Depends entirely on how often it dies to a removal spell, but I think it could work.
I feel like I am missing something with Glacial Chasm. Outside of a few matchups like Burn or Infect, I find that preventing damage for a turn or two is just counterbalanced by the loss of two mana-producing lands and opening hands with it often feel like mulligans. Can those with experience offer some tips and tricks of how to make the best use of this card?
Results from first day of side events (at my first gp) with my spicy brew, the decklist is available if wanted.
Double up event - used a different deck went 1-1-1, tested post against BR reanimator for the friendly games after IDing - seems like a very favoured match up.
Interim - traded most of my cards to almost finish the deck (4 cards left that I can borrow).
Regular legacy side event - 2-0-1
R1 - Czech pile 2-1
Game 1 - I have what appears to be a good turn 4 win until hymn hits cards that slow me down. I play several threats which get dealt with but marit lage gets there.
Sb - + 2 noxious revival + 2 warping wail - 2 intuition - glacial chasm -amulet
G2 - he gets discard spell to slow my hand down enough that a true name gets there. I was 1 turn away from winning.
Sb - intuitions back in - maze - amulet
Game 3 : he gets strix with a jitte beating face. As the beating commences I get to 6 lands, 1 of which is a cavern on giant (jitte is on 6 counters) and cast prime time. I work out I can survive 1 more turn so get 2 cloud post to be at 10 mana. He promptly removes the counters to kill prime time, next turn I cast newlamog which exiles jitte (he removed a counter to kill strix and gain life in response to the target of strix and jitte). Newlamog gets countered. Next turn new kozilek, draw 6 and get enough mana for old emrakul
R2 - Czech pile 2-1
Game 1 - same as R1 Game 1
Sb - +2 noxious revival +2 warping wail - glacial chasm -2 amulet - maze
Game 2 - same as R1 game 2 except with leovold not True name.
Sb - none
Game 3 - he answers my early game threats, and has me locked down with jace, I track my card type in graveyard for new emrakul and as jace gets to 13 loyalty I top deck trop (he forgot about the discount). He snapcaster targeting red elemental blast to destroy his jace. I cast his pithing needle naming jace. He has force in hand but didn't pitch snappy to it.
R3 - ID burn (friendlies went 2-0)
Game 1 I get glacial chasm from prime time and the rest was straight forward
Game 2 - we both kept bad hands, in the end he had 8 creatures (2 guides, 2 swiftspears and 4 eidolon) and I had 4 max of iths (1 maze, 2 vesuva, 1 stage) and 6 other lands and candelabra.
Overall I'm really surprised and amazed at how the deck performed and the spicy cards won me a lot of games.
I currently have 3 stifle side board but I'm thinking of only having 1 and 1 warping wail.
Here's a bant list I've started to work on after seeing Mr. Enero's list (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=18276&d=313308&f=LE). I've made a few changes and the list still needs work.
I kind of miss the utility lands now and then (bojuka, glacial), but i feel that without crop - snt Titan + knight are too slow to get the most out of them. By t3 you can easily have an ooze oozing on their GY about the same time you can get bojuka on the ground in this crop-less build. terminus + mirri is proving a fantastic combination for a bant post build. If I'm not setting up terminus, i'm setting up SnT titan or GSZ - hate or just plain old cloudpost drops. The gsz - ramp is just enough for this thing to be fast and not get mana screwed. Any thoughts?
1 [RAV:153] Birds of Paradise
1 [ONS:316] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN:220] Misty Rainforest
4 [MMQ:61] Brainstorm
1 [FUT:174] Dryad Arbor
4 [TMP:130] Mirri's Guile
2 [ZEN:249] Forest
1 [MMA:178] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [USG:96] Show and Tell
1 [MM3:54] Temporal Mastery
4 [FNMP:120] Cloudpost
1 [LEG:248] Karakas
2 [3ED:303] Tropical Island
1 [TSP:281] Vesuva
1 [LRW:248] Gaddock Teeg
1 [THS:180] Sylvan Caryatid
4 [EMA:169] Green Sun's Zenith
1 [2ED:293] Savannah
2 [ONS:328] Windswept Heath
1 [MM3:134] Scavenging Ooze
1 [ROE:4] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [WWK:136] Eye of Ugin
1 [ZEN:233] Plains
4 [M12:188] Primeval Titan
2 [EMA:187] Sylvan Library
1 [ZEN:234] Island
4 [MM3:26] Terminus
1 [BFZ:15] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [SOM:227] Glimmerpost
1 [LEA:294] Tundra
SB: 1 [ALA:10] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [MM2:99] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [MGDC:39] Reclamation Sage
SB: 2 [ME2:37] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 [CMD:46] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [EMN:13] Blessed Alliance
SB: 1 [ARB:8] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [RTR:18] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [DKA:24] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 [TSP:202] Krosan Grip
Alright after much needed tinkering and testing here is my new Gr Cloudpost deck!
Lands: 25
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
5x Forest
3x Taiga
3x Wooded Foothills
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
1x Vesuva
Creatures: 8
4x Primeval Titan
2x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Others: 27
4x Crop Rotation
4x Sylvan Library
3x Warping Wail
3x Pithing Needle
3x Ancient Stirrings
3x Kozilek's Return
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Candelabra of Tawnos
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 15
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Choke
3x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Krosan Grip
1x Reclamation Sage
I'm really happy with this list but I've been wanting to find room for a Glacial Chasm.
Any thoughts?
''The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.'' Lord Eddard Stark - A Game of Thrones
-Adsum
-ChrisMeister on MTGO
What are the cards you use against fast combo decks (such as storm)?
I have 1 stifle and 1 flusterstorm and am currently trying notion thief and if I can get any some root maze (I run amulet of vigor so it would be quite 1 sided in my favour)
I took a very slight variant (-2 Snapcaster, +2 Needle and a different SB) of into_play's BUG list to FNM today and due to horrible matchups went 1-2, but I think the deck has some potential. I played:
4 Cloudpost, Glimmerpost
1 Vesuva, Thespian's Stage
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea, Bayou, Island, Forest
1 Eye of Ugin, Karakas, Cavern of Souls, Bojuka Bog, Glacial Chasm
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Cyclonic Rift
3 Show and Tell
4 Crop Rotation
1 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Expedition Map
Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Trinisphere
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Matchups were BR Reanimator (1-2), Mono-Red Blood Moon/Blood Sun/Magus of the Moon with rituals into Deus of Calamity (1-2), and BUG Leovold (2-1).
Observations:
- The BR Reanimator matchup is terrible. I won game 2 on the back of an early Crop Rotation -> Karakas while he failed to find an Entomb. Toxic Deluge saved me from death by Ashen Rider, but the real all-star is Sylvan Library which let me hide Ulamog from discard while digging for lands. Sideboarding is awkward because I don't want creatures that can get discarded and reanimated, but that leaves only Emrakul. I did not see a Deathrite or a Surgical during the match, so the matchup might be better than it seemed at the time.
- Deathrite Shaman is wonderful. Being a second colored source under Moon effects was crucial and against BUG it negated the mana loss from being Wastelanded, in particular providing the second green for a T4 Titan.
- New Kozilek was underwhelming. While the prospect of drawing more cards and countering relevant spells is enticing, it does very little to improve a board where you are already substantially behind. At every time where I could have cast New Kozilek, the old version would have drawn the same number of cards and affected the board less. New Kozilek makes more sense in C/g builds that often end up with no cards in hand.
Changes:
No changes for the time being, but I am considering trying Flusterstorms in place of the sideboard spheres which I have always played. Flusterstorm players: why do you like that card and in what matchups do you bring it in?
I have been liking Flusterstorm more and more, going from 3 to 4 in the board.
It is good against combo like Reanimator and ANT. Against Reanimator, you can keep up U turn 1 and counter a key spell through a Canceller tax with the copy.
I bring them in versus Burn and fair decks with discard. It's a good way to stop Hymn and K Command.
I've been trying GB now and as of yet the results have been good. Will post later with more info.
''The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.'' Lord Eddard Stark - A Game of Thrones
-Adsum
-ChrisMeister on MTGO
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