I do understand that you would have to completely retool the deck to not use expedition maps, candelabra, crop rotation, etc. What I'm saying is that as I've been using these cards, I'm still getting beat down by red decks, be it burn, UR delver, Jeskai, etc. What if we took that element out to add the prison piece but still have the inevitability against Miracles, etc.Originally Posted by LLCoolDave
I'm thinking something like this...
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [MR] Forest (1)
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [ST] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [U] Savannah
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [MR] Sylvan Scrying
4 [DS] Trinisphere
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MMA] Chalice of the Void
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
1 [NPH] Batterskull
This is just a starting point, but it has 8 ways to drop a turn one chalice and still has 14 colored mana and sylvan scrying to get more. You could even run one tropical island in main or board to have 9 blue sources to play show and tell if you really wanted to. Again, this probably falls under the "experimental decks" category and I get it if this isn't the place for it. But I built the Post deck thinking it would be good in the current meta, given the lack of wastelands and descent number of Miracles players out there. But I have just been getting beat up by red, no matter what I try in the board. White would also give us access to good creature removal or protection pieces (rule of law, CoP: red, or whatever) to fight the menace of red. You could replace pithing needle with Sacred Ground to fight against opponent's wastelands. Anyway, again just a thought.
Won my local tournament the other night (My first time winning anything ever, mind you) with this list!
I started with MaCHOOga's list and tweaked it slightly
Artifact (2)
2x Candelabra of Tawnos
Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
3x Stifle
3x Crop Rotation
3x Force of Will
3x Repeal
Sorcery (9)
4x Ponder
2x Show and Tell
3x Treasure Cruise
Creature (7)
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4x Primeval Titan
Land (26)
1x Vesuva
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Tropical Island
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Dark Depths
2x Island
1x Polluted Delta
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Eye of Ugin
Literally didn't have time to make a sideboard before the first match up was posted, so I won all these games without sideboarding. Wins were against Death and Taxes 2-0, Elves 2-1, and Dredge 2-1.
I don't miss pithing needle at all. Stifle fills it's shoes perfectly and has a lot more use in games where pithing needle is dead.
Don't miss sensei's top either. In one game I hardcasted treasure cruise twice without delving! Rock Lee is right; sensei's top is too slow.
Main board force of will is awesome as well. Which leads me back to stifle, the two have awesome synergy. Need to counter a spell? force pitching stifle. Need to stop something from happening that's already on the field? 1 blue for stifle is easy. The control element is insane.
I feel like these are all conclusions that everyone here has come to at one point or another before, sorry I'm slow to catch up.
Oh, and I'm running all 3 eldrazi now cause I don't know which to remove. Might take out ulamog for a 3rd show and tell or something, as we have a lot of aggro in my meta.
Feedback welcome!
I went to GP NJ playing a tried and true version of the deck:
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek
1 Ulamog
1 Emrakul
4 Brainstorm
4 Repeal
4 Show and Tell
3 Crop Rotation
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Tabernacle
SB
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
1 Swan Song
3 BEB
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Elephant Grass
1 Krosan Grip
Ended up going 6-2-1, with a few very bad misplays stuck in my mind. Especially one in my final round, which most likely cost me going to day two.
Round 1 - Bye
Round 2 - Bye
Round 3 - MUD
The first game he had a really slow start, never having a land that could produce more than one mana. When he cast Metalworker on turn 3, I Repealed it on his endstep and cast Titan on my turn to take over the game.
After game one, I was feeling bold and offered him to split the round, thinking that the draw bracket would be flush with Miracles. He promptly agreed, since his deck would also probably do well against an assumed field of Miracles. Not to mention, MUD is a very bad matchup for me so I thought this was well worth it.
2-0-1
Round 4 - Death and Taxes
These were three grindy, engaging games. Game one he beat me down with Thalia and Spirit of the Labyrinth before I could get any gas or even a single Cloudpost. Game two he got me to one life but I was able to cast a Titan and break through. Game three was me fighting through Ports to Show and Tell a Titan, then cast Ulamog to win.
3-0-1
Round 5 - Jeskai Delver
Game one I blindly cast Show and Tell into open blue mana, but it resolved and Titan won the game quickly. Game two he raced me with Delver and equipment. Game three was my first major mistake of the tournament. I kept a hand of three Show and Tell, Titan, Emrakul and two land. His turn two Meddling Mage naming Show and Tell made it not even matter that I wasn't able to draw a third land. I suppose I got caught too much into the hype of Show and Tell.
3-1-1
Round 6 - GW Maverick Brew
He was playing a build that went turn one Hierarch, turn two Voice of Resurgence and then turn three Loxodon Smiter. None of this hindered me though, and I was able to cast a fourth turn Titan to ramp and win. Game two I saw him get a Knight of the Reliquary into play, but I was able to Show and Tell in a Titan. After the match, he told me that he only had one Wasteland in his deck.
4-1-1
Round 7 - Miracles
Game one was a stomp by me. Game two, when I was at 25 life, he cast a miracle Entreat on my endstep for two. So I have three turns to win (assuming no other threats like Clique or Snapcaster). On my next turn at 17, with Eye of Ugin and I believe about 10 mana in play, I decide to cast a Primeval Titan, which he Forces. I think the better line of play would have been to spend the turn tutoring for Kozilek, casting Kozilek the following turn (while at 9 life), and then possibly finding more answers or Emrakul at 1 life. But the Titan play set me back an extra turn. Game three went to time, but I was able to Show and Tell an Eye into play after playing a Cloudpost for the turn to win the match within the final turns.
5-1-1
Round 8 - UW Stoneblade
Nothing much to say, I Repealed germ tokens both games and ramped pretty steadily. I know everyone says Miracles is the deck that 12Post most wants to see, but I honestly think the old stoneblade builds are even better for us. Their creature pressure is more certain, but they have nothing as strangling as Countertop. Plus they cannot surprise us with anything as hard-hitting as a quick Entreat.
6-1-1
Round 9 - Jeskai Delver
Game one goes long. My worst punt of the day, is when I draw a Repeal for the turn with a Pithing Needle in hand. My opponent has a germ token and Batterskull with a Stoneforge out and three mana open. Instead of casting the Needle first to name Batterskull, I foolishly Repeal the token first, so he returns the Batterskull to his hand. He then puts the Batterskull back in with Stoneforge and beats me over the course of a few turns. Had I played the two cards in the correct order, I would have bought myself at least two more turns without Batterskull beats. Not a mistake that I would normally make, and I think I was just getting tired.
Game two I ramp without colored mana, just three Cloudposts, Eye of Ugin and Glimmerpost for Emrakul. At this point, I hadn't seen a single Wasteland, so after that and seeing Stoneforge Mystic, I thought he was on a Wasteland-less build. Game three, he finally plays a Wasteland on my Cloudpost while I'm tapped out, and I can't get anything going from there.
6-2-1
Some thoughts on my list:
I still stand by running both Kozilek and Ulamog. Ulamog, in my opinion, is an essential part of the late-game reach of the deck, being a tutorable Vindicate. So cutting him is off the table for me. When you don't always have the Eye of Ugin route up and running, it's good to have more threats to naturally draw into, and Kozilek is the best at this. I tend to look at the Eldrazi as more than just single tutorable targets; they are also win conditions that you can draw alongside Prime Times, and having an extra threat is useful with so much extra mana to use. Both were cast several times on the day without needing to be searched for, usually winning the game thereafter.
I normally speak highly of Glacial Chasm, but I hardly used it during the tournament. Never had to get it in response to a Price of Progress. I still think it's a fundamental part of the deck, so it is probably not leaving the 75 soon. Tabernacle pulled its weight throughout the day. It was great against Death and Taxes, keeping the opponent off of Cataclysm and tying up their Port mana. With not very many options against the mono-white deck, it was a useful addition.
In the sideboard, Forces were never used all day because of dodging combo. But that is a great thing. Blue Blasts also did not get used, but I still think they are necessary for all the nasty red spells that could haymaker us. Like a great deal of players, I overestimated the presence of Burn and UR Delver. Phyrexian Revokers did not get used once (was there for Liliana and mana artifacts in combo matchups). I might keep one still to tutor for with Eye, and as random combo hate.
I am going to test a couple of Carpet of Flowers in the sideboard to help with some of the Delver matchups. Elephant Grass is great against UR and RUG Delver builds, but not exactly what I want against the Jeskai and BUG variants. It seems that hindering their mana denial plan, while at the same time boosting our development would fit well, at least on paper. Would give us the crucial mana to be able to drop a Titan soon enough.
Some thoughts on the event:
I made some horrible misplays that I will certainly not forget, and I will work on being more focused for long events in the future. I think fatigue may have just got to me for some of the later missteps. Still, the deck was fun as always to play.
Rock, Zot and wingler, it was great getting to see you guys for the first time. It's eye-opening to put a face and personality to the textual knowledge I read about on here. Plus it's good to see that the enthusiasm for this strategy is alive and well.
I didn't really mind the extra 30 minutes or so between rounds. A 4,000+ player tournament is a logistical nightmare, so I kind of expected there to be delays. But there was plenty of things to do, people to see in between rounds. The Grand Prix was a blast, and I wish there would be more big Legacy events like this prepared in the future.
Congrats on the wins, PilotChick! Trickbind has kind of been my pet card. It obviously essentially works the same way as Stifle with the added perk of being almost uncounterable. It also has some fringe value elsewhere: as an example, if a Sneak and Show player isn't expecting it and activates Sneak once, you can stop it for the rest of the turn with one spell. If they know about it, they can hold priority and activate multiple times, but it can buy you at least one turn. It's nice to see someone else enjoyed some success with Stifle effects.
It was a pleasure! It was kind of funny how we all converged on one table. I was watching Rock play and then turned and I was like, "Hey, I think I recognize this guy."
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
I'm not sure how I feel about running that many 3-ofs. To me, 1and 2-ofs are to be avoided. It seems like going with 3 would allow some flexibility for including some cards you don't otherwise have room for, but at what point do you begin to lose the assurance that you'll have a crop or stifle on the draw which to me seems like a strong play, or that the deck just becomes too spread out. I definitely agree with running all 3 eldrazi as this deck is low on creatures anyway. To me, running GSZ seems like a good answer for this.
What red deck? I feel like burn is actually quite a good matchup for us.
Thanks zot!
Yeah I looked at trickbind but I decided the early play (stifling a fetch when on the play) is stronger, and later game I'm fine with people burning counters on it. It's all about nickel and diming them til you get that eldrazi love!
Ponders, I said the exact same thing to my best friend and he brought up the point that with treasure cruise and kozilek slightly less card density is okay with so much draw power. Chances are you'll draw into what you need sooner or later.. Usually sooner. Idk needs more testing. You may be right I may be wrong. More games will tell; admittedly the matches I won were mostly positive match ups for me
congrats on your success. Sideboards are for chumps anyway. So overall how was stifle? In my LGS, I have a lot of aggro decks as well. I think I'm going to try a light toolbox package this upcoming week, trinket mage: map, EE, SDT and candelstick. I have to work on it tonight. I know that I want at least 18 blue cards to support MD FoW.
It's also possible that since the "JeskaiBlade" decks are pushing out the delver decks that SDTs may become better. All the stoneblade players I've talked to, said it's a matchup in our favor, as they are just a midrange deck. Has anyone had any experiences with this?
Man I hope not. I just recently got my big girl pants on and got away from the warm comfort of sdt.
Love stifle though! So many good plays and at worst it's fow food
I'm not convinced yet that SDT isn't the right card in this deck. I think that compared to ponder at least, SDT is quite preferable for its reuseability and activation on an opponents turn. Although, as mentioned your list does have a significant amount of draw power. I still think 12-post is top deck strong however, especially because at later turns you have the mana to cast anything you draw. Primetime seems to be the hinge point, which is why I've lately been thinking the GSZ or snt route is more viable. Sure Treasure cruise is new and sexy, but it seems like a gimmick to me, and should probably be banned anyway. I'm also a bit skeptical about inclusion of dark depths. I love this combo, really. But with only 3 crops and no maps, I wonder at how effective it is past getting a lucky draw. Functional redundancy wins delver's games.
I agree with all of this. All this testing with new cards only to end up MD'ing cavern and EE to address the meta.
I agree to Mr. Harding agreeing to PondersPlayed a little tournament on Sunday with bad results due to at least two heavy miss-plays, but the deck felt really well! I run 1 Cavern, 2 EE and 1 Trinket Mage. EE is absoluty insane. Never felt like "O, EE, what a bad draw". Can even handle stuff @cmc 3 quite easily, like annoying lilly etc. But I still want one additional lifegain MD besides Glimmerposts. My favorite card is Thragtusk, over Wurmcoil or Batterskull. Does anyone have others clues for MD lifegain? Zuran Orb will be in SB. Even considered Ivory Tower and Elixir of Immortality
Never said sdt is wrong, I just like the heavy draw less fixing build more. The ponders are inferior to top, yes, but they're a small price to pay to run the rest of the blue package
I'm going to try out a version with a mix of ponders and SDTs this evening. One is inferior to the other, but together they are a great pair. I am violating my 18 blue card rule of thumb for force of will.
Blue cards
1 trinket mage
4 brainstorm
2 treasure cruise
2 ponder
4 repeal
2 show and tell
3 force of will
my maindeck trinket toolbox is:
2 candelbras
2 sensei's divining top
1 engineered explosives
1 expedition map
Sideboard toolbox
1 zuran orb
1 engineered explosives
1 tormods crypt
Got some games in today against the list that won GP Jersey and the Stoneblade deck just felt like a complete mess. I came close to losing a game where I had to crop rotate away my Tabernacle for an actual mana source and my opponent ended up getting 8 Elemental tokens into play, but beyond that I swept the set. Elephant Grass and Repeal put in a ton of work in this matchup, and beyond that the deck just isn't scary at all. In fact, we invented a new game called Cruise or Bruise. Basically, you guess if a treasure cruise finds a good/relevant card or not. I think Bruise is heavily favored, but I might be a bit biased here.
The Jeskai lists, while a bit stronger than the Esper lists of old, still have the same essential problems in this matchup. Their pressure isn't impressive and easily interrupted by us (Repeal for Germ, Elephant Grass/Tabernacle/EE for Pyromancer), their removal is fairly useless and their disruption is mostly perpendicular to our game plan. Sure, they have a good amount of card draw and card selection, but when there isn't much good to be found in most situations, all that does is gain us tempo by them having to spend a lot of mana to produce the necessary pieces. I can see the ponder/cruise builds of our deck to have a significantly harder time in this matchup though, as that plan plays right into what their disruption is designed to handle.
In other news, Thespian's Stage-ing an opponents Dark Depths is a fantastic deal.
Apparently last night at my LGS was "ughh matchup" night. BUG Delver, then ANT, then Sneak & Show. Overall the night didn't go too well.
That being said, I played 1 Titania with 0 GSZ. That card is a beating!
Game 1 against ANT, Titania plus an elemental got there in 2 swings.
Game 2 against ANT, we were both durdling. I hit a point where I had 3x mana producing lands and 2x fetchlands. I cracked 1 fetchland, cast show and tell, put in titania. Brought back the fetch that I cracked, double cracked for two 5/3 elemental tokens. At his end step, crop rotate'ed away a random land for a bojuka bog. Proceeded to untap with 4x 5/3's. He cast chain of vapor on a token, I countered it. He then burned an abrupt decay on a token and took 15 in 1 swing. He started to combo off, but I stopped it with a flusterstorm. (I made a play mistake that I should have actually crop rotate'ed for another fetch to generate 25 power so that he was guaranteed dead with 1 swing. At that point, I had 0 fetchable sourced left so that why I overlooked that line of play.)
But yeah, Titania....wow!
Man I really wanna play her but I wasn't sure if she fit in ug post. I want her so bad I was thinking of putting mono g post back together just to have a spot for her. Or maybe I just want an excuse to buy the new commander set. I have a soft spot for precon commander decks; marath was my first magic deck ever but I digress. Point is maybe she has a spot in ug after all. I mean rock Lee ran her in jersey, what are your thoughts on her rock?
She completely destroys multiple matchups that was previously difficult. Either through recurring glacial chasm, or being an anti-pox type card.
Titania is pretty awesome. Think about it this way she is a 5/3 that nets you another 5/3 and a land from your yard.
I have been loathing SNT of late. I never see it when I want it. and never want it when I do see it (a bit of hyperbole but not much). I was down to 1 at the last tournament where I top'4d. I think this time I am going to run a second trinket mage in its place. My GSZ package is a dryad arbor, Titania, and 4 Prime Times. I was running an Oracle but I found her only OK.
Also how have people been finding depths/stage combo in the deck?
Show in Tell is secretly not essential for the deck. It is however, a great help to have with decks that run fast games (namely burn). My advice would be to play it in the sideboard if you feel you have room for it there.
Dark Depths is a great card right now (with or without Thespian's Stage) because Miracles is a major player and has a weakness to it, and Wasteland is allegedly on an all time low in the meta game. I've taken up Snow-Post as my secondary deck for the moment because plays smoothly with Dark Depths (my primary is MUD-Post). The other day I manually thawed Dark Depths over the course of four turns.
"Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void, empty, and become wind."
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