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Thread: [Article] Eternal Europe: The Storm Experience

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    [Article] Eternal Europe: The Storm Experience

    Something a bit different from my usual fare today. Let me know what you think!

    http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...xperience.html
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: The Storm Experience

    I thought the premise--conveying "the joy of combo"--was a little silly, but your enthusiasm was infectious and you did a good job of making the game state easy to keep track of. I prefer your strategy articles, but this was good too.

  3. #3

    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: The Storm Experience

    Good article! I have a question regarding your decision of Brainstorming when you decided to go for PIF or Tendrils.

    Isn't it better odds to draw one card, which could be any spell, rather than Brainstorm to look for one of six specific cards? Even if you count Ad Nauseam as a blank your odds are way better.

    You've run through some cards by fetching and cantripping, so you'd have about 47 cards in your deck left. You're looking for a Ritual. You have eight, you've used two, six left. It's about 12,5% you'll draw one immediately, but with each subsequent miss, your odds will increase by 0,3% (and growing when going down from 47 to 46 etcetera). That gives you 38,5% of getting there (you actually got lucky). If you just try to dodge a land in one draw, you'll have about 75% you'll get there.
    I took 47 as the number for cards left in your deck but it could've easily been 46 or 45. This is a rough guess and I'm aware that with less cards left in the deck, the Brainstorm odds get a little better and drawing a spell gets a little worse, but going for the random draw still has better odds because you're not going to get close to a coinflip anytime soon.

    I'm an ANT player too, so this was a really awesome read for me. I like your lines of thinking. You seem to be very good at shortcutting when you go through lines of play so your head stays clear and you play tight. I'm the type of guy who goes through too many lines (just to make sure), waste energy and time. I can pilot this deck but I need to work on where I focus my attention, because currently I'm trying to focus everywhere when I play storm.

    EDIT: I forgot to say that you should cast Brainstorm in response to Daze because you could draw an Infernal in your Brainstorm. If you wait after you tutor up Tendrils, Infernal Tutor is now blanked. If you get an Infernal as the third card, you can grim up an LED, and still kill him.

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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: The Storm Experience

    Great article!

    I enjoyed Cifkas demolition of the midrange Pro Tour, and you put into words nicely why. Rather than being just a constructed and optimized version of Limited play, the combo decks give constructed format Magic a different and super interesting flavour. I don't play much combo myself, but playing aggro-control or control, I truly enjoy playing against intricate combo-decks, exactly because i, on the ooponents side, is trying to figure what lines of play my combo opponent is trying to create and solve, and so the pouzzle is for me to optimize my disruption and line of attack. Much more interesting than most combat-based matchups, in my taste.

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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: The Storm Experience

    Really liked to read this one. Thanks.
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: The Storm Experience

    A big part of why people think combo is boring is that especially spell-based combo is hard to interact with. And what interactions there are are often rather absolute in nature - you can stem the bleeding from aggro with chump blocks, but things like the strongest hatebears or Chants are very binary - if that resolves, goodbye to the game. It's just as horribly boring as cheating Griselbrand into play. Playing Delver or UW against Storm? Entertaining for many, no doubt. Partly because it is really interactive and the cards involved aren't just so freaking DUMB. Midrange critters have started being in that super dumb category too. Something's wrong when value dude and super aggro dude are the same thing. Yet nowadays they all too often are.

    It takes skill to navigate through a sea of counters, it takes skill to place those counters properly. Blows get traded, even if there's nothing but lands and trinkets on the field. I've been playing creature-based combo decks for years now - started with Lark-Blink, and then moved onto more Hulky kinds of things. Some Infect in Pauper and the occasional game with Elves. And on the whole far more games were very exciting because more opponents could interact with those decks because the pieces were on the board. Their aggro dudes were not just a clock within which I needed to win, I could block them and such. There's eking out value here and there with 2-for-1's (that actually cost more than the aggro dudes so tempo has to be paid attention to) A similar kind of thrill that is found in playing combo against blue or blue against combo. Only everywhere. There's no more mindless facerolls. Every game is actually game.

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    I think a problem people have with combos are the ones where the opponent is basically dead, but not yet. Like High Tide after they punch through hate or Second Sunrise midcombo. You have them dead, but you still need to generate enough for Blue Sun's Zenith or draw into a Spellbomb, whereas with Storm you're just dead after they punch through. The games where combo has to play an interactive game are some of the most interesting in all of Magic, though.
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: The Storm Experience

    I really liked this, but found it a bit disjointed. The font issues were a problem but the permutations presented where difficult to grasp (partially due to the nature of storm). -Still, a very good read.

  9. #9

    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: The Storm Experience

    Not that I agree with all your decisions (I'd definitely fetch U.Seas and try to play around Bolt), but that's the gist of it - discussing the plays, the thinking process is the interesting, rewarding and fun, I love to watch and be part of it the same you described in beginning of the article.

    anyway - great read, I enjoy every your article, keep it up and thanx again

  10. #10

    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: The Storm Experience

    @lochlan: happy you enjoyed it :) I honestly think it combo is often misunderstood and that's why a lot of people don't like watching it, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReinVos View Post
    Good article! I have a question regarding your decision of Brainstorming when you decided to go for PIF or Tendrils.

    Isn't it better odds to draw one card, which could be any spell, rather than Brainstorm to look for one of six specific cards? Even if you count Ad Nauseam as a blank your odds are way better.

    You've run through some cards by fetching and cantripping, so you'd have about 47 cards in your deck left. You're looking for a Ritual. You have eight, you've used two, six left. It's about 12,5% you'll draw one immediately, but with each subsequent miss, your odds will increase by 0,3% (and growing when going down from 47 to 46 etcetera). That gives you 38,5% of getting there (you actually got lucky). If you just try to dodge a land in one draw, you'll have about 75% you'll get there.
    I took 47 as the number for cards left in your deck but it could've easily been 46 or 45. This is a rough guess and I'm aware that with less cards left in the deck, the Brainstorm odds get a little better and drawing a spell gets a little worse, but going for the random draw still has better odds because you're not going to get close to a coinflip anytime soon.

    I'm an ANT player too, so this was a really awesome read for me. I like your lines of thinking. You seem to be very good at shortcutting when you go through lines of play so your head stays clear and you play tight. I'm the type of guy who goes through too many lines (just to make sure), waste energy and time. I can pilot this deck but I need to work on where I focus my attention, because currently I'm trying to focus everywhere when I play storm.

    EDIT: I forgot to say that you should cast Brainstorm in response to Daze because you could draw an Infernal in your Brainstorm. If you wait after you tutor up Tendrils, Infernal Tutor is now blanked. If you get an Infernal as the third card, you can grim up an LED, and still kill him.
    The Brainstorm line: There is an editing mistake in the article. My version said "spell mana source" which is the correct situation, editing seems to have made it into spell/mana source - at which point you'd be correct and Brainstorming pre-Tutor would likely be better.

    As for the "examining too many lines" problem, I have that, too. The way I approach it is too just ruthlessly abort thoughts about any line I can't figure out the result of quite rapidly. That means I sometimes end up missing the line I should have taken but I also don't accumulate a ton of slow play warnings/get lost during comboing. My basic approach is to eliminate engines one by one (natural Tendrils, tutor chain, PiF, Ad Nauseam) hoping I find one that works. Once I do, I follow that one. Only when I realize none works do I search for tricky lines to pull off.
    Also don't forget this was an article. Much easier to focus when you aren't stressed out actually playing for high stakes with the round clock ticking.

    As for your edit, that's an interesting observation, I would have to do the math to really tell you if spell mana source or tutor in a single card is more likely than exactly Ritual in three. In a tournament I'd go by pure intuition and still take the Brainstorm line.

    @Valarne: I totally agree, storm combo vs (non-CB) blue is one of the most intricate and fun matchups to play.

    @ScatmanX: Thanks for reading :)

    @Zombie: I can see how the creature-based combos make for better games against other creature decks. Given that I don't really like the whole "combat math" thing, I'd probably stick with spell-based combo, though. Also, while I appreciate the better game experience for both players in some matchups, I fail to see how the fact that they can interact with you more is a reason to play those decks in a tournament you want to win but that is a different subject altogether.

    @Shawn: Agreed. I stopped playing High Tide in part because I couldn't take doing the combo-turn the hundredth time over again any more, actually.

    @John Cox: I agree that the whole thing ended up a little disjointed - I'd bet lots of money that I'm not the only storm player whose thoughts run through lines in that somewhat jumpy fashion when playing the deck, though.
    I didn't realize the font-problems, thanks for letting me know. They don't exactly increase readability. Gotta contact Lauren, I guess.

    @sloshthedark: As mentioned in the article, I'm relatively sure there will be some non-optimal lines in there. That is, in my opinion, part of the nature of storm. I didn't go ahead and try to figure out everything in advance to give a perfect sequence of plays but chronicled what was going on in my head to convey an impression of what playing storm feels like.
    Happy you enjoyed it anyway :)

    Also, in the interest of getting better with the deck, could you elaborate where you think I went wrong?
    Would you fetch a Sea with the very first land? Because after that, that's what I'm (forced into) doing anyway.
    As for playing around Bolt, I'm never in Bolt-range outside of the combo-turn and he can't bolt me at that point because he'd have to Brainstorm into it but has only a single land untapped. When exactly are you referring to me not playing around Bolt?
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: The Storm Experience

    Loved the article, it's a great read!
    I can relate to the scattered thought patterns while playing combo, too.

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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: The Storm Experience

    Oh man this is wonderful
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: The Storm Experience

    I find combo pretty dull. the interactive games are fairly interesting, but once the combo works and it's just a matter of waiting to die, I get very bored.

    I don't like to concede because I have been in plenty of situations where my opponent did something wrong, or got unlucky. Storm players miscounted and I survived at 2 life, or they only found a warrens and I was able to sweep away the tokens, or my high tide opponent misses and has to stop after an unlucky time spiral, My favourite is when my opponent has no win con, they build up 20 storm cast wish, then laugh and concede. All cases where they looked to be winning but I won basically just by not conceding, even though I couldn't do anything about it.

    The fun games, though, where it's a back and forth between counters and hate on one end, and the combo player trying to punch through on the other, are very interesting, though. I still prefer control mirrors though.
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    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: The Storm Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief View Post
    @Zombie: I can see how the creature-based combos make for better games against other creature decks. Given that I don't really like the whole "combat math" thing, I'd probably stick with spell-based combo, though. Also, while I appreciate the better game experience for both players in some matchups, I fail to see how the fact that they can interact with you more is a reason to play those decks in a tournament you want to win but that is a different subject altogether.
    You're not doing a ton of combat math with those decks - you just occasionally have the option to sacrifice a piece to slow the opponent down usually. Very seldom, you might go with a beatdown plan (That isn't a cheated-into-play boom boom fattie anyway).

    And yes, the dichotomy between noninteractive boredom and binary blowout cards being good and an actual, dynamic, interesting game with both players chipping at each other's defences being comparatively bad (plus oftentimes not anywhere near as interesting in the combo portion) is a thing that annoys me to no end. I love combo but going off for the Nth time in a game that pans out just the same as N others because so many cards on both sides don't care one bit about each other just gets old.

    I'd love for the caretakes of the formats and R&D to tackle this somehow - more interactivity with more setup-needing combotastic critters like Rector, Hulk, Reveillark, Melira and the like, less dumb boomboom cards whether spell or critter. And then perhaps some banhammering. But the critter combo decks would have to be actually good and interesting. Griselbrand just isn't my idea of entertainment, really. (Hell, not necessarily even critters. Just nonland stuff being on the battlefield for more than the "go off" turn is a ridiculously huge win for interactivity. Or you can just play blue, I guess.)

    EDIT: Also, good job on the articles. Consistently the best Magic-related reading there is.

  15. #15

    Re: [Article] Eternal Europe: The Storm Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief View Post
    @sloshthedark: As mentioned in the article, I'm relatively sure there will be some non-optimal lines in there. That is, in my opinion, part of the nature of storm. I didn't go ahead and try to figure out everything in advance to give a perfect sequence of plays but chronicled what was going on in my head to convey an impression of what playing storm feels like.
    Happy you enjoyed it anyway :)

    Also, in the interest of getting better with the deck, could you elaborate where you think I went wrong?
    Would you fetch a Sea with the very first land? Because after that, that's what I'm (forced into) doing anyway.
    As for playing around Bolt, I'm never in Bolt-range outside of the combo-turn and he can't bolt me at that point because he'd have to Brainstorm into it but has only a single land untapped. When exactly are you referring to me not playing around Bolt?

    Well I was afraid you'd ask that =) and my apologies for the delay but I was rather busy, it's hard to imagine everything just from the text and time consuming; I would not assume I'm better with the deck, but to mention how I'd play it, or some notes of interest...:
    -----------
    I'd speculate keeping hand 1 if on play and IT instead of Grim
    -----------
    On play Sea definitely, good player would not waste T1 if you play a Ponder, on draw he most likely doesn't have Stifle because he Pondered, so yes I would fetch Sea and Ponder or plan to play fetch and fetch in my upkeep if I want to be cautious, play petal, BS, then fetch again and ponder (which usually leads into T2/T3 kill) most Thresh players do no realize they should counter the BS in the first place

    the thing is the fetches in our opening hand doomed you to go Sea+Sea, I would be more worried about the BS being countered rather than one Sea wasted, odds are the cantrips net you at least 1 other land, if it's not a Delta you're playing around 2nd Wasteland not the 1st, in longer game you'd need 2nd B anyway so you end up not playing around it at all

    that's why I think the default fetch basics and all island approaches are wrong and I'm running 4 Delta, 3 Tarn, 2 mire, 2 Sea, Volc, Badlands manabase now
    -----------
    Ponder - with the Sea line of play is probably keepable, but you rely on the BS hard, so likely BS next turn, fetch before and go for the kill, or wait a turn a do the same depending on what opp does
    -----------
    To play or not to play Petal...many do not realize just Dazing BS to force a fetchland crack is a play to consider, I'd not play the Petal, it emphasizes you lean on the BS too hard and offers too much thinking and suspicion, if he has Spell pierce he will gladly trade petal+crack for it, at least I'd

    BS - I'd keep Ponder and shuffle both Misty and BS, or Therapy+BS, then ponder for T3 kill again

    I'd shuffle my turn, minimizing Stifle probability, which I think is important
    -----------
    Maybe I'd Therapy before the Ponder, to know what to dig for as i clearly intend to kill next turn

    Ponder - maybe keep, draw Ritual, Tendrils on top - If I saw soft counters, Duress, Tendrils for hardcounters, the thing is that ToA in GY saves you mana you would need for IT to search for it; interesting question, doesn't the other Ritual do the same? .. answer - my feeling tells me ToA is better, you have irreplaceable part of the chain and PiF is a live draw, so I'd keep ponder and draw 2 cards+fetch next turn or all 3, accordingly to what my opp has

    I'd save the fetch for my upkeep if I have to fetch, but prefer to draw ToA and than fetch, cast BS
    -----------

    Final turn - Oh, I have read the article and wrote the reply in different time so I was not aware of the detail, and had the previous impression he had mana open - I missed the "plays second Goyf line", and opp leaves Trop open, which is obv. bad so Bolt option is not alive... and after constructing the situaton myself I agree it's more complicated than it seems and around Bolt can be hardly played...so:

    Therapy should be dazed and paid, now it's difficult whether to BS or not, ponder in GY is better option as finding any Ritual, LED or ToA = win and possible land drawn cycles into another ponder, IT->LED you continue... Grim tutor is free shuffle, and didn't play a land, so yes, BS pre-tutor - but keep Delta instead, - PIF, fetch, ponder (alt shuffle, alt Grim->LED -> ponder, BS, BS)

    goldfished this situation 10 times = 10 kills

    so I think the whole 2nd BS discussion is unnecessary, flashbacking PiF makes you one mana short so LED is not and out in the BS, but creates the same situation (2 floating post PiF) as I had, you have unshuffled library and see less cards in the flashbacking process... you wouldn't get into this situation if Therapy had been dazed btw.

    btw. 7/10 in goldfish

    huh it was hard to come to this statement, I just had feeling my line could be better, but after really thinking yours through (this line of play would probably never sparkle in my mind and would never be able to think it through in a tournament) I admit it's quite close...

    just how I'd play and plan in these situations... I hope it's not confusing and mistakes were avoided

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