Should Black Vise be Unbanned?

[Koby]

Said it before and I'll say it again. If Black Vice is unbanned I'm playing Stasis whether it's viable or not, so careful what you wish for.

Stasis? I'd play Prosperity before I'd touch Stasis. Cards in hand? Oh 12? Take 8.

[Gheizen64]

Prison decks aren't dominant because they do not have a reliable win condition.

As for blue decks, the real "blue culprit" deck aren't the control decks. It's U/x tempo decks. Black Vise does nothing against those decks.

You are better of getting Earthcraft unbanned. Hell, I might even go for Frantic Search.

Really? Prison isn't playable for the simple fact that reusable black lotus for artifact isn't legal in this format. Legacy has nowhere enough power level to make prison work, not to say it wouldn't even be as good as it is in vintage as your lock pieces don't block mana sources (moxen).

[Morte]

Stasis? I'd play Prosperity before I'd touch Stasis. Cards in hand? Oh 12? Take 8.

I tried Black Vise + Prosperity many years ago (1997?) I can't forget the last time I played the deck.

My turn, a lot of mana from a Mana Drain, Prosperity for 10, pass with 3 Black Vises in play.

Opponent's upkeep. "You just let me draw 3 Disenchants"


Lesson: never make your opponent draw extra cards, unless you're killing him now. I'd like to see your Prosperity against a Legacy combo deck...

Touch Stasis before

[Koby]

Good thing the rules have changed since 1997 -- Black Vise will trigger regardless :D

[Octopusman]

I love stasis as well and would prefer to not run black for sleeper agent which was my win con last time I played.

The biggest problem with stasis, imo, is that root maze doesn't stop creatures and kismet/frozen aether cost too much. Orb of dreams is too symmetrical.

I am for an unban.

[jtos84]

Good thing the rules have changed since 1997 -- Black Vise will trigger regardless :D

It looks like so far some people are most of afraid of rug delver using black vise. That actually sounds like a bad Idea, and I really don't think it would improve delver. The deck can't really afford to cut creatures, and any other card it uses can't really be cut for it. On top of that black vise is only going to matter somewhat in a deck with lock pieces. If there is nothing stopping your opponent from playing cards then they will obviously just play them in an attempt to win the game.

For the argument about it being too good on the play I would just say that is a reason force of will is good. I really doubt I would waste a force of will on a black vise though. Black vise is normally the lesser evil in the decks that run it. It might be a kill condition, but it takes quite a lot of uninterupted lock pieces to win with black vice.

Someone else mentioned making everyone draw tons of cards. That would probably be the best way to make your opponent win the game. They will just combo off or overwhelm you. I know this discussion cannot be taken as the complete truth unless the playtesting is done to back it up. I am going to see if if I can get some players to play tier decks aainst the best black vise lock build I can think of today, and I will post what happens.

Legacy seems too efficient to be beaten out by a card like black vise. This card or deck is by no means efficient. You will never consisitently play it on turn one, and then actully see it hit the board.

Oh, and one more thing. I would not place cards to be considered for unbanning in any order. They are not the same card, and they will all interact differently with current metagames, or potential future ones.

[Koby]

The card is fine in regards to the power level of Legacy.
However, from a "fun" aspect, Black Vise creates scenarios in which people perceive as negative. For this reason alone its kept on the ban list. Mind Twist might very well be on here too.

[jtos84]

The card is fine in regards to the power level of Legacy.
However, from a "fun" aspect, Black Vise creates scenarios in which people perceive as negative. For this reason alone its kept on the ban list. Mind Twist might very well be on here too.

That is probably the best argument we have had so far. I think I have heard that in the past also. I'm not being sarcastic here, but can you possibly give the potential negative scenerios so they can be evaluated? I would write them down myself, but I am not sure that I have the worst case scenario deck built yet. Academy ruins would probably be in the deck.

As far as the other cards being discussed in this thread its probably fine, but that is not why I made it. If I had some expertise as to why they should be unbanned I would start an individual thread for each one, so that the replies are not all mixed up and hard to find.

I am writing about, and testing with black vise because I used to play lock decks with it a really long time ago. Im guessing at least fifteen to seventeen years ago.

[Jenni]

Said it before and I'll say it again. If Black Vice is unbanned I'm playing Stasis whether it's viable or not, so careful what you wish for.

I already play stasis, I would just be playing a better stasis deck with vise back.

[Hanni]

I don't understand most of the posts in this thread. First of all, Prison decks should be running Iron Maiden or Viseling over Black Vise so that they can drop Chalice@1, and Black Vise doesn't suddenly make cards like Upheaval or Prosperity playable.

Black Vise is powerful because it costs 1 mana. Sligh and Burn are the homes for it, not some bad deck that lets its opponents draw cards.

[jtos84]

I don't understand most of the posts in this thread. First of all, Prison decks should be running Iron Maiden or Viseling over Black Vise so that they can drop Chalice@1, and Black Vise doesn't suddenly make cards like Upheaval or Prosperity playable.

Black Vise is powerful because it costs 1 mana. Sligh and Burn are the homes for it, not some bad deck that lets its opponents draw cards.

We played black vise in burn, and it seemed like the worst card that could be used. I think there are very few burn decks that can be considered competitive beyond the point of random wins. I've been using the list I posted minus the armaggedons and plus swords to plowshares, and its decently competitve. Noone has played against it with delver yet, but the deck certainly is not overwhelming. I doubt it will be in the same deck that uses chalice of the void just because it would make very little sense.

[Michael Keller]

Super-simplified short answer: No.

[jtos84]

Super-simplified short answer: No.

Do you have any supporting comments?

[tsabo_tavoc]

Do you have any supporting comments?

Because manaless Dredge exploits a 7-card hand

Black Vise would see play if unbanned. It is a very powerful card against a good number of decks, but its high variance makes it not worth building around. The unban is relatively safe, but as many have mentioned, there are safer unbans in the form of Earthcraft and Mind Twist.

[Gheizen64]

We played black vise in burn, and it seemed like the worst card that could be used. I think there are very few burn decks that can be considered competitive beyond the point of random wins. I've been using the list I posted minus the armaggedons and plus swords to plowshares, and its decently competitve. Noone has played against it with delver yet, but the deck certainly is not overwhelming. I doubt it will be in the same deck that uses chalice of the void just because it would make very little sense.

Yeah vise sucks in burn. Affinity is a better home and even then...

[Freggle]

Black Vice is a fair card. Just like Mental Misstep was. The problem is it's colorless, lets face it, just like Mental Misstep was.

The issue isn't whether the card is unfair. I personally think it is balanced as an ability. The issue is should every single deck have access to the ability?

Black Vice can have a very high damage output in the early game, and is relatively tough to deal with if resolved on the play turn 1. It started getting attention from Wizards around the same time that they started to phase out random discard. It was a part of Wizards conscious effort to make Magic more of a game of skill and less of a game of luck.

So the question really is do you want to play in a format where somewhere just under 40% of the games can start with land-> Vice go?

I feel that would be format warping, and reduce the design space of both deck brewers, and card development (Wizards.) It is likely better on the list.

Alternatively, if they were to reprint the same wording with perhaps a casting cost I think it would be just fine.

[jtos84]

I think I am starting to agree with it staying banned. All the games I have won required no skill. It will randomly win games, and if anything is printed to help it out I do think it would dominate. On its own it does win about 40 percent of matches none of which require thinking. It probably would warp the format in an unreasonable way because random lock decks would show up and win through sheer numbers more than likely. If there were ever a metagame where a control deck that used this card were good, but not dominent existed that would probably be the time to unban it. The card is fun to play with until you realize your just repetitivly doing the same thing over and over without really using your head.

[clavio]

I played Winter Orb prison for years, even when it was terrible. I don't think that Black Vise is the right win condition for lockdown decks. A turn 20 Iron Maiden seems similar to a turn 20 black vise. Lodestone Golem is a lot better.

But yeah, in other decks black vise would be great. I think the fact that it basically whiffs in some match ups mitigates the fact that it can be unfair in others. I'd love to see it in Legacy.

[Erdvermampfa]

Any card that might lessen Blue's dominance in this format should be automatically unbanned.

[alderon666]

I don't think Black Vise will be any more annoying than Counterbalance. The deal is that it's a threat, a threat that can be dealt by answer cards (Pridemage) or simply plying your cards (maybe in a less than optimal way, "Bolt your face, you are at 17").

Comparing it 3-Sphere/CotV/land destruction which basically lock you out of the game, this looks like a much milder card. And the variance really destroys the card on aggro decks.