[Deck] U/G Enchantress

[LurkingMatt]

Considering all posts that where made while I was lurking (which I probably will do again ; ) ), a bit of feedback:

@Ben: Please, you "try to discuss logically" but:

1. If you want to improve a deck (e.g. Di's, WaytoWinAWar's) you do not only disrupt an idea but offer alternatives. "My build/ the old build is better" doesn't really qualify. And yes I know Di can be frustating since he is so empathical about his ideas.
   Especially since you more then once stated "I changed that in my deck" during this threads timeline without any update to the- admittedly not really primer like front post - nor a post of your current decklist(s)/ iteration of those.
2. I really enjoy(ed) your style of discussion since you always try to reason with anyone. But since Di and you seem to
   agree to disagree - leave it be (as a suggestion).
3. How about an updated list and a few things you learned while trying different things?
   I am really eager to learn more about the deck and dust it of (I am currently running Tide/ 12Post since I am more comfortable with those but take this beauty for a ride in our local LGS regularly). But not without convincing that my Matchups vs fair decks are better/ Storm "not worse" then 12Post.
4. How about aOr maybe a "real" primer? I would be willing to help out any way you want.
5. This deck (Enchantress in any incarnation has been a baby of mine for quiet some time. So I am willing to invest/ do stuff if the reasoning is logically (and yes, I own the whole shebang (including exotic Helm-Enchantress or
   some Curios I purchased to test Di's suggestions (NO I WILL NOT RUN TENDRILS) excluding ITEOC.
   The fact alone that I joined the active community (more or less at least ;) ) and created an account to get involved should be proof enough

@ Di (sorry for shortening your Name, Di)

1. I know you are not a native speaker (Belgian I would guess?), but please keep your sentences simple.
   If you do that I am more willing to follow any argument you make and the sense is less open to interpretation.
2. Thanks for your interest in the deck and the will to innovate.
   While not all of us might buy your ideas, your "mad scientist build" helps the rest of us to learn more about the deck.
   So keep on doing your thing and to push borders!
3. Speaking of that:
   Please consider dropping either Tendrils OR Emrakul. At least main deck. I understand the general idea of redundancy you want to have but both go different ways:
   Tendrils -> Storm (works nicely with Curio, likes Sanctum since you need more mana).
   Emrakul -> going BIG (works nicely with the "normal" engine, likes Sanctum since you only need Faeries and a few enchants to drop him fast)
4. Your manabase is really interesting. As long as it works: "Go push the probabilities".
   My experience as a "casual" tournament player (2-3 tournaments (16+ players) / month, no big leagues since Germany has few of those + 3-4 LGS meetings / month) tells me it will bite you in the ass in a critical moment.
   Also thank you for your explanation(s) of your land choices!
5. Thanks for the math on your manabase but you have to consider the probabilites of "usable" mana in your hand.
   That'S the main point of argument by Way and Ben.
6. Could you please offer "a complete standard list" integrating Cloudstone Curio and Abundant Growth for real discussion of the topic "Curio + Growth"?
   My experiences while testing them showed that they don't really like being one ofs, you need both of them
   preferably as two+ ofs(Growth at least - and that thing at least cantrips on its own).
   I am currently not bought by the tech but it showed more promise then most things I tried.

[waytowinatwar]

@Muffinman: Congratulations to your finish - that's great! - and welcome to the thread.

Your maindeck is just a few cards of what I'm playing myself so there is not a lot i disagree with. There is a discussion in the thread about usling dedicated kill cards like Emrakul. Personally, i don't think you need one, as you say sometimes they just sit there and stare at you. You need to be able to safely pass the turn, so I play finks for infinite life since finks help out pre combo with various things.

Your sideboard is weak to stormbased combo and, I think, overloaded with graveyard hate. Maybe you just want to ignore storm based combo decks entirely? That's a perfectly reasonable position since you have to board so much to even have a shot But a teeg in the sb and a temple garden main does a lot and I highly recommend it. Also note that your sideboard only contains two enchantments so your enchantment count is likely to go down after boarding. (Also note that you only report 13 cards). Leyline of sanctity is clunky but strong against a lot of things that are difficult to deal with. Tendrils, discard, liliana etc. Concerning Palinchrone: I don't think the probability or severity of the threat you mention warrant a dedicated sideboard slot. If you disagree, snap is a more versatile option (snap witness for inf mana).

[LurkingMatt]

Regarding the Curio // Growth Engine:

So that leads directly to the second line of questioning:

1) Why should I add in 6 cards (2 Cloudstone Curio and 4 Abundant Growth) to do something that the deck already does very well (makes mana, draws cards, solid mana base)? I already feel that Abundant Growth is an objectively weaker card than any of the cards that you've suggested I cut for it strictly because my mana is already so good so it doesn't add anything to the deck in and of itself, which gives me no reason to play it on it's own merits. The only reason I would play it would be as a draw engine with Cloudstone Curio, but then, as I said, I'm adding in six cards that don't add anything to the deck aside from speed, and at the cost of consistency (here, about 4 lands and 2 other cards that are already pulling their weight).

To be honest, I have to admit I am not really bought to add six (!) cards either since the list is tight.
The main point of this engine is that

• Cloudstone Curio:
• Pros:
  - It "can" accelerate comboing out since you need fewer resources (since you can cantrip/ bounce Faeries more easily).
  - Would add more resilience to this deck
  - Synergizes nicely with current pieces in this deck
  - New Wincons are possible (not needed though -> for reference check White Staxx).
• Cons:
  - You still need other permanents to achieve anything though
  - Not really needed since we already do lots with it
  - You need space which is thigh in this deck
  
  Abundant Growth
• Pros:
  - Cantrips
  - Mana fixing thus less non basics needed
• Cons:
  - Doesn't increase our mana efficiency
  - Actively slows our mana production rate by producing not "more"

2) Why should I want to be faster? Even if I live the dream with your list and somehow combo off on turn 2, many of the decks I couldn't beat before (combo) are at least as fast, except consistently. At an average speed of turn 5 (with my current list), I am already fast enough to consistently beat any deck that isn't a combo deck. And if your goal is actually to speed up the deck, you should be playing the full 4 Cloudstone Curio to increase the chance of winning on turn 2. If it does everything, as you say it does, then you should want every one you can get.

Actually you only want one.

Still I agree that - if Curio is not only winmore - or should be treated as an redundancy, as a matter of fact, you would want it as a three of (increasing probabilities to draw it on T3/ T4 to go off).

You are once again referring to "your current list".

Willing to enlighten us?

Regards,
Matt

[LurkingMatt]

First of all, I have to say that I haven't read the entire thread, I think I got as far as page 6 before I stopped. I also created this account right now, just so I could post this. ;)

I found this thread and became aware of the existence of the deck about 2 months ago, and I instantly fell in love with the deck, as I've always loved enchantress. I only ever played a very budget deck though, and it wasn't at all on par with the legacy scene. (It played Mesa Enchantress, Attunement, Replenish and Opalescence.) I've never actually played legacy for real apart from on Cockatrice and Magic Workstation, as it has been rather unreachable for me in terms of cost.

Anyway, I've started building the deck, and I took it to a local tournament. So I guess I want to share the outcome, as well as ask a bit about the sideboard.

The list I run wasn't as complete as I would've wanted it, I lacked some cards that I couldn't get a hold of before the tournament, so at that time, it looked like this:

2 Breeding Pool (Those other duals are too damn expensive!)
4 Misty Rainforest (Fetches are also expensive, but I already owned some, and I managed to borrow the rest.)
3 Wooded Foothills
9 Forest
2 Island

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Eternal Witness
2 Words of Wind
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Elephant Grass
4 Seal of Removal
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (I was planning on playing with the wish, but couldn't find one, so I just stuck him in the main board.)

Sideboard was not at all complete, but here goes, I guess

2 Faerie Macabre (Pre-emptive strike against a deck I knew would be there, which is the landless Balustrade spy into Laboratory Maniac combo deck.)
2 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Palinchron (What do you think about this one? I thought of it as an alternative way of producing infinite mana/bounces in case your opponent plays Surgical Extraction on one of your Cloud of Faeries for example.)
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Verduran enchantress
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks

Regarding Pools:
I used those myself. Did you get along with the life loss?
Regarding Emrakul:
I use(d) Emrakul myself maindeck - nice secondary wincon isn't it?
But not really needed in G1 as I had to find out.
Regarding Palinchron:
Never thought of it, to be honest.
Would be applciable with Living Wish I guess.
Regarding Sideboard at all:
Seems it worked for you. Congrats :)

You might want to consider picking up Temple Gardens/ ~2 Serra's Sanctum while they are cheap.
Sanctum is not really an option for you unless you consider strengthening/ adding a white splash but they are nice to have.

It was a rather small tournament (14 players in total I believe) so this might not be the best test I could get, and I managed to dodge my worst match-ups. This is basically the first time I play the deck outside of goldfishing, and my experience with legacy is farily limited, so even though there weren't too many rounds, I learned a lot. With so few players, we played 4 rounds of swiss, which will result in a maximum of one player remaining unbeaten.

I'm worthless at writing reports, and I might've forgotten some things, but I'ma give it a try.

Match 1: BUG Delver
I end up winning 2-0
I really felt like the Elephant Grasses as well as Seal of Removals saves this deck against Delver-style decks. They bought a bunch of time which let me get enchantress effects on the table and overwhelm his counterspells. I didn't go off as early as turn 4 or 5 any of the games, but around turn 6 or 7.

Match 2: Maverick
I won 2-0 easily.
This match up almost felt like a joke. He just sat there and watched me play solitare.

Match 3: UWR Delver
I won 2-1.
Game one was very close, and I won with 3 life left. It was a lot like the BUG delver match-up but I feel like this one is worse because of the burn spells he ran. Game two, I lost. I got countered and burned out. He also played a clutch Surgical Extraction that removed an enchantress's presence, which also made me discard the one in my hand. (My only enchantress effect at the time.)
Game three, he kept a hand without Force of Wills, and didn't get any, so I pretty much roamed freely.

Match 4: Maverick?
As I said earlier, I'm not the most experienced Legacy player. This person played some kind of a maverick-style deck, but he had added red into the mix, and played with Punishing Fire + Grove of the Burnwillows.
We ended up going to time, and no one won the match, 1-1.
In game one, he didn't do much to stop my assault apart from 2 Qasali Pridemages that tried to remove my enchantress effects. Game two was intense though. He dropped a Ethersworn Canonist, and together with Sylvan Safekeeper(Couldn't bounce his canonist) and Umezawa's Jitte (To kill my faeries and hit hard), he managed to pull out a victory.
Game three was kind of awkward. I only found one enchantress effect, and drew my emrakul(He just stared at me stupidly) as well as a lot of other dead cards, lands mostly. We ended up going to time, and neither of us could end the game.

I did win on tie-breakers though, so I finished first. I was very pleased with the deck, both how it performed and how fun it was to play. I will most certainly continue to play the deck, and continue with Legacy - it is the coolest format after all.

As for the sideboard, what would you suggest I should do with the it? It seems to be the only part of the deck that is truly adjustable, apart from a few cards in the main. I know that combo is a weakness, so I'd have to adjust it to that, I guess.

That's all from me. Bye!

Congrats to your wins and welcome to the thread!

Re sideboard:

Some suggestions (please note they are generalized):

• vs Storm-based combo:
  Leyline of Sanctity, Kitchen Finks,Mindbreak Trap, Flusterstorm,
  In the Eye of Chaos - if resolved - is a pain in the ass, also a nuisance: Mana Maze.
  
• vs Discard:
  Leyline of Sanctity, Compost and Deep Analysis
  
• vs Burn:
  Leyline of Sanctity, Kitchen Finks, Energy Field
  
• vs Omnishow:
  Generally speaking Counters, In the Eye of Chaos .... uhm... maybe(!!) Mana Maze?
  
• vs RiP/Helm Combo:
  Leyline of Sanctity, [cards]Seal of Primordial[cards], [cards]Krosan Grip[cards] (fragging Counterbalance!)
  
• vs Creature-based combo (aka Elves, Painter, Sneak and Show):
  the only "real" answer to those is a) being faster and b) slowing them down enough to make sure you can combo out.
  Answers can be Mana Maze, Propaganda, Blind Obedience, Bounce and Cursed Totem/ Null Rod/ Dampening Matrix (a compromise of those two).
  
• vs Dredge:
  you MIGHT want to consider boarding in your Leyline of Sanctity / Compost since they
  could be on a Flayer list but otherwise..... let's just say their odds are not good. ;)
  
• vs Loam (I know not really combo but hey.... I am at it):
  Leyline of Sanctity, Compost, Counters vs their Dreams

Afterthought:
If you are running Blind Obedience in your sideboard and know that SnS/ Reanimator will be around, Meekstone is really nice and sort of a no brainer. It also blind sides Craterhoof so you only have to survive him (and his buddies) once....

Also Solitary Confinement is an option.
Using a Rest in Peace/ Helm of Obedience and Energy Field engine is an option, although this take the deck into a different thread since the engine is a different one (Lock (our version) vs Combo(RiP/Helm)).

Did I forget something, guys?

I hope the choices give you ideas about what can/ could work.

Regards,
Matt

[LurkingMatt]

@Muffinman: Congratulations to your finish - that's great! - and welcome to the thread.

Your maindeck is just a few cards of what I'm playing myself so there is not a lot i disagree with. There is a discussion in the thread about usling dedicated kill cards like Emrakul. Personally, i don't think you need one, as you say sometimes they just sit there and stare at you. You need to be able to safely pass the turn, so I play finks for infinite life since finks help out pre combo with various things.

Your sideboard is weak to stormbased combo and, I think, overloaded with graveyard hate. Maybe you just want to ignore storm based combo decks entirely? That's a perfectly reasonable position since you have to board so much to even have a shot But a teeg in the sb and a temple garden main does a lot and I highly recommend it. Also note that your sideboard only contains two enchantments so your enchantment count is likely to go down after boarding. (Also note that you only report 13 cards). Leyline of sanctity is clunky but strong against a lot of things that are difficult to deal with. Tendrils, discard, liliana etc. Concerning Palinchrone: I don't think the probability or severity of the threat you mention warrant a dedicated sideboard slot. If you disagree, snap is a more versatile option (snap witness for inf mana).

Teeg.... Damn I knew I forgot something.
Tried Snap as backup but lost them along the way
since sideboard space was tight. Worked as intended though.

Thanks man!

Matt

[waytowinatwar]

Here's deTora's primer: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/meliss...ntress-primer/

I'm actually working on something like an extended primer myself which I hope to finish in the near future.

[Muffinman]

Thanks, great response. :)
We usually have one legacy tournament each month here, so I might come back next time and tell you how I did.

Regarding the graveyard hate in my board: The only two decks I knew would be on the tournament were the landless balustrade spy deck as well as a dredge deck. So I kind of prepared for them. The dredge one didn't show up though, and I managed to dodge the other one, so I never really needed any of them. I didn't really know how the rest of the meta looked here, since this was my first real legacy tournament. There were loads of delver and maverick, I can tell you that much. Apart from that, I saw a Show/Tell and a Pox deck, as well as some random super-control deck that basically had Jace as his only win-con. Considering this, I guess the storm combo decks aren't the first problem in mind, since it will probably be a while before I take the deck outside of my home town. I still want to board against them in time though, and appreciate the help. :)
Leyline of Sancticity seems to be where it's at.

Any of you ever consider Circle of Protection: Red against the burn matchup?

Emrakul: I dunno, I like having a dedicated win con. I'm not sure that I need one, but I think it helps. Once I comboed out at 3 health, and if it weren't for emrakul, I would have to pass the turn and risk getting bolted. I do think I prefer the wish though, as it gives added utility when I'm not ready to go off.

Breeding pool: I don't see them as a real problem to be honest. Especially when you want to get basics as often as possible. (I guess this goes for legacy in general - if you can afford it, get basics to avoid wasteland.) I think I only played a breeding pool untaped two times during the entire tournament. I almost always favor getting a basic forest or island over the pool, and I only go fetch it when I feel I really need to.

The list with kitchen finks in main looks interesting, I can certainly see the benefits.

[Dihensoeur]

Considering all posts that where made while I was lurking (which I probably will do again ; ) ), a bit of feedback:
@ Di (sorry for shortening your Name, Di)

1. I know you are not a native speaker (Belgian I would guess?), but please keep your sentences simple.
   If you do that I am more willing to follow any argument you make and the sense is less open to interpretation.
2. Thanks for your interest in the deck and the will to innovate.
   While not all of us might buy your ideas, your "mad scientist build" helps the rest of us to learn more about the deck.
   So keep on doing your thing and to push borders!
3. Speaking of that:
   Please consider dropping either Tendrils OR Emrakul. At least main deck. I understand the general idea of redundancy you want to have but both go different ways:
   Tendrils -> Storm (works nicely with Curio, likes Sanctum since you need more mana).
   Emrakul -> going BIG (works nicely with the "normal" engine, likes Sanctum since you only need Faeries and a few enchants to drop him fast)
4. Your manabase is really interesting. As long as it works: "Go push the probabilities".
   My experience as a "casual" tournament player (2-3 tournaments (16+ players) / month, no big leagues since Germany has few of those + 3-4 LGS meetings / month) tells me it will bite you in the ass in a critical moment.
   Also thank you for your explanation(s) of your land choices!
5. Thanks for the math on your manabase but you have to consider the probabilites of "usable" mana in your hand.
   That'S the main point of argument by Way and Ben.
6. Could you please offer "a complete standard list" integrating Cloudstone Curio and Abundant Growth for real discussion of the topic "Curio + Growth"?
   My experiences while testing them showed that they don't really like being one ofs, you need both of them
   preferably as two+ ofs(Growth at least - and that thing at least cantrips on its own).
   I am currently not bought by the tech but it showed more promise then most things I tried.

@LurkingMatt: thx for your notes.

As you requested, see below a suggestion from the thread's list (that's running 20 lands not 18 or 16) which includes Curio+Growth engine and keeps WoW as the only "kill" :

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
7 Forest
2 Island

Creatures:

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Cloud of Faeries
1 Eternal Witness

Spells:

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Seal of Removal
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Words of Wind
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Abundant Growth
2 Cloudstone Curio


Changing:
- 1 Witness
- 1 GSZ
- 1 Seal of primordium
- 1 Living Wish
+ 2 Cloudstone curio
+ 2 Abundant growth

[waytowinatwar]

@muffinman concerning cop: red. Between leylines and finks you really don't need it. Burn is really quite easy. Also, cop requires that you keep open at least two mana at all times which interferes with your gameplan.

[Dihensoeur]

If he goes for Emrakul he can't shuffle back his hand, so all you need then is 7 permanents to win it. Unless I'm missing something, which is probably the case. I don't think 7 permanents has to be a problem for this deck really, but as with every sideboard card ItEoC isn't perfect. As I haven't played the deck for real yet I wouldn't know of course, but on paper it looks as the best piece of hate we have against Omniclash, blue based combo decks in general and maybe even Burn. The drawbacks of that card are just significantly less than with the other cards (Iona, trini) so I see much more flexibility and a broader range of application. That's quite a good thing to have in a sideboard card.

Example:
You put ItEoC quickly. He still continue to search his combo cards with Ponder/Preordain or Brainstorm(brainstorm cost only 2 with ItEoC so not a problem).
Then he plays Show&Tell for 3 and put Omniscience (or you put a ItEoC under Show&Tell). He play for free Ponder/Preordain then Enter the infinite then Emrakul so he gets an additional turn.
New turn for him. Draw his last card, then attacks you.
2 cases:
- you have less than 7 permanents so ItEoC is sacrified so he plays a wish=>bounce (or bounce directly) Emrakul then he discards with keeping a perfect hands and so discards Emrakul=>shuffle all then he achieves you next turn.
- you have more than 7 permanents so you keep ItEoC, so he plays a bounce from hands for 3 to bounce ItEoC and like first case, bounce Emrakul to achieve you. Or he plays wish for 3 to get Maniac Laboratory then plays it for free and win next turn.

For me ItEoC is not enough VS OmniShow. But you can test it and tell us the result! Maybe I'm wrong.

For Mana Maze:
I think he will play like this:
- he plays one ritual during his turn and an instant spell during your turn.
- When Mana Maze under Show&Tell, He will play Wish during your turn to get Eladamri's Call and then plays it to get Emrakul and so win next turn.

[LurkingMatt]

Example:
You put ItEoC quickly. He still continue to search his combo cards with Ponder/Preordain or Brainstorm(brainstorm cost only 2 with ItEoC so not a problem).
Then he plays Show&Tell for 3 and put Omniscience (or you put a ItEoC under Show&Tell). He play for free Ponder/Preordain then Enter the infinite then Emrakul so he gets an additional turn.
New turn for him. Draw his last card, then attacks you.

As far as I know, ItEoC would make that SnT cost six mana, which is quiet a bit, even for those Sol Lands.
All you want to do is slow him down, and that's the best ideas I got.

2 cases:
- you have less than 7 permanents so ItEoC is sacrified so he plays a wish=>bounce (or bounce directly) Emrakul then he discards with keeping a perfect hands and so discards Emrakul=>shuffle all then he achieves you next turn.
- you have more than 7 permanents so you keep ItEoC, so he plays a bounce from hands for 3 to bounce ItEoC and like first case, bounce Emrakul to achieve you. Or he plays wish for 3 to get Maniac Laboratory then plays it for free and win next turn.

For me ItEoC is not enough VS OmniShow. But you can test it and tell us the result! Maybe I'm wrong.

Kindly note I do not own them but I will check those once we get together in our testing group.
Like I said, it is an uphill battle and I personally rely on 4 Flusterstorms for those.

For Mana Maze:
I think he will play like this:
- he plays one ritual during his turn and an instant spell during your turn.
- When Mana Maze under Show&Tell, He will play Wish during your turn to get Eladamri's Call and then plays it to get Emrakul and so win next turn.

Actually I used Mana Maze quiet a lot when not deploying the white Leyline in my sideboard alongside Compost.
If I managed to resolve both, Storm always was in trouble. But yes, most will try to Ponder, generate mana,
Brainstorm, Mana, Cantrip, WinCon if they re clever (I cannot counter it since he has blocked blue).

In my first iterations I would board into Remora, Maze and Compost. Nowadays?
Leyline(s), Flusterstorms and praying. ;)

[LurkingMatt]

@LurkingMatt: thx for your notes.

As you requested, see below a suggestion from the thread's list (that's running 20 lands not 18 or 16) which includes Curio+Growth engine and keeps WoW as the only "kill" :

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
7 Forest
2 Island

Creatures:

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Cloud of Faeries
1 Eternal Witness

Spells:

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Seal of Removal
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Words of Wind
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Abundant Growth
2 Cloudstone Curio


Changing:
- 1 Witness
- 1 GSZ
- 1 Seal of primordium
- 1 Living Wish
+ 2 Cloudstone curio
+ 2 Abundant growth

Thanks.
Looks nice so far. I would only change minor details like -GSZ, +2 Witness, - Carpets, 2 Abundants for maximised testing
but that's me. I assume you would also cut those last two carpets for Abundant Growths to maximize the
potential?

@Others: "Could" we agree on that list for discussion of the engine? Or any more changes requested?

Regards,

Matt

[LurkingMatt]

Thanks, great response. :)
We usually have one legacy tournament each month here, so I might come back next time and tell you how I did.

Regarding the graveyard hate in my board: The only two decks I knew would be on the tournament were the landless balustrade spy deck as well as a dredge deck. So I kind of prepared for them. The dredge one didn't show up though, and I managed to dodge the other one, so I never really needed any of them. I didn't really know how the rest of the meta looked here, since this was my first real legacy tournament. There were loads of delver and maverick, I can tell you that much. Apart from that, I saw a Show/Tell and a Pox deck, as well as some random super-control deck that basically had Jace as his only win-con. Considering this, I guess the storm combo decks aren't the first problem in mind, since it will probably be a while before I take the deck outside of my home town. I still want to board against them in time though, and appreciate the help. :)
Leyline of Sancticity seems to be where it's at.

Any of you ever consider Circle of Protection: Red against the burn matchup?

Emrakul: I dunno, I like having a dedicated win con. I'm not sure that I need one, but I think it helps. Once I comboed out at 3 health, and if it weren't for emrakul, I would have to pass the turn and risk getting bolted. I do think I prefer the wish though, as it gives added utility when I'm not ready to go off.

Emrakul doesn't have to go, but he is "better" in the sideboard in most cases.
G1 you shouldn't need him and in G2 you need a secondary WinCon.
I myself tried Chameleon Colosus since I can sink mana into it,
but so far I am not sure if I really liked it, so I went back to Emrakul and Finks out
of the sideboard.
If anyone doesn't believe me, head over to the GW(r) thread and check Spatulas
responses to suggestions otherwise.

Breeding pool: I don't see them as a real problem to be honest. Especially when you want to get basics as often as possible. (I guess this goes for legacy in general - if you can afford it, get basics to avoid wasteland.) I think I only played a breeding pool untaped two times during the entire tournament. I almost always favor getting a basic forest or island over the pool, and I only go fetch it when I feel I really need to.

The list with kitchen finks in main looks interesting, I can certainly see the benefits.

K. So it was the same for you (still picked up those Trops since I got them cheaply).

Btw. you answered your own question regarding CoP: Red above. ;)

[Dihensoeur]

As far as I know, ItEoC would make that SnT cost six mana, which is quiet a bit, even for those Sol Lands.
All you want to do is slow him down, and that's the best ideas I got.

SnT is a ritual so doesn't affected by ItEoC.

In my first iterations I would board into Remora, Maze and Compost. Nowadays?
Leyline(s), Flusterstorms and praying. ;)

Maybe LL and Flusterstorms are the solution for combo decks :).

[tyriion]

As far as I know, ItEoC would make that SnT cost six mana, which is quiet a bit, even for those Sol Lands.
All you want to do is slow him down, and that's the best ideas I got.

Show and Tell is a sorcery and won't be countered, just like Enter the Infinite. The big thing however is that most Omnishow decks don't play bounce maindeck and if they don't expect In the Eye of Chaos they won't put it main either. Most hate can be wished around, but ItEoC neatly counters Cunning Wish. So if they don't run bounce main the Emrakul route will not be enough when you get 7 permanents out. And the Wish route will be slowed down significantly as they need to reach 6 mana. By then you should be able to get Words of Wind online and bounce his mana back.

All this is focusing pretty much on one match-up that, in my region at least, isn't that common. I don't really see a lot of combo in my meta, so the deck should be well placed to get some results.

[LurkingMatt]

You are right, Di.
And Ty.

Sry.

Well that would leave us with 4 Leylines, MAYBE 4 Flusterstorms, and 1-2 ItEoC vs Storm and Omnishow?

Sounds that about right?

Matt

[LurkingMatt]

Here's deTora's primer: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/meliss...ntress-primer/

I'm actually working on something like an extended primer myself which I hope to finish in the near future.

First of, thanks for the Link.

Looking forward to your Primer.

If you need help regarding MUs, Choices, generally anything... contact me.

Regards,
Matt

[Dihensoeur]

Thanks.
Looks nice so far. I would only change minor details like -GSZ, +2 Witness, - Carpets, 2 Abundants for maximised testing
but that's me. I assume you would also cut those last two carpets for Abundant Growths to maximize the
potential?

If I would to put x4 Abundant growths I will don't cut carpets but lands (but someone can be shocked by cutting lands so I will not suggest that :) ).

Why would you add +2 Witness and less GSZ ?

[benthetenor]

I haven't posted a list in months because it's been the same (+/- 1 or 2 cards) for months, but here you go.

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
6 Forest
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
3 Chrome Mox

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Cloud of Faeries
2 Eternal Witness

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Seal of Removal
4 Elephant Grass
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Seal of Primordium
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Words of Wind
1 Mindbreak Trap
4 Green Sun's Zenith

The sideboard is always in flux but right now it looks like this:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Deep Analysis
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Blind Obedience
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Harmonic Sliver


I have no problem discussing esoteric ideas with someone who's excited about innovating. I do have a problem with people innovating just because they can't just take a deck as "finished" when it's posted. I didn't start this thread to ask people if they had any ideas about how to make it better, I posted it because it's a very strong deck in the right metagame and because people in the other Enchantress thread were asking for it. This deck doesn't need innovation, unless you have some way to completely destroy combo decks without losing any points in the fair deck matchup, but given that this deck will never, by it's nature, be consistently faster than your average combo deck, that seems pretty silly. If I ever see someone post an idea that is stronger than what came before, I'm very quick to praise them and adopt that idea; Blind Obedience is a great example of that, since it fulfills the same role as Emrakul, but is also an Enchantment that addresses a problem matchup (Elves), making it the most efficient spell for that slot. That's great. But this deck had already taken 5th place in the MOCS championship (353 participants) by the time that it had any sort of prominence at all, so it is for all intents and purposes "done".

There is absolutely room for innovation in the sideboard, mostly because that's what a sideboard is all about. Cuneo's SB had 2 Chill and 1 Energy Field because the MTGO metagame is, no joke, 25% burn decks. He did not have anything to combat Omni-Show decks because those decks had only just been invented. Interestingly enough, though he played in a field where you were about as likely to see Burn or Combo as you were to see a fair deck, the only cards he had to deal with combo were 2 more Mindbreak Trap and a Gaddock Teeg, and maybe a Tormod's Crypt if that was relevant. And yet he crushed the field and got blown out by triple Thoughtseize (from Esperblade, of all things) two out of three games in his Top 8 match. So in my estimation, his SB was perfect for that day, but that was a year ago and on MTGO, so our task is to find the perfect sideboard for this metagame. Maybe that's why I get annoyed when people waste time trying to "fix" the main deck. The main deck is perfect.

If you want to keep trying to "make it better", go for it. But everything, and I mean everything, that has been suggested so far has only made the deck more unstable. You will never, with all of your innovating, make a deck with Argothian Enchantress in it into a turn 2 deck, at least not consistently. It makes way more sense to me to try to play to the deck's strengths to keep it 70/30 against the fair decks (i.e., deck's you will likely be seeing in the Top 8), rather than to try and bolster it's weaknesses and make it a 45/55 deck against the entire field. But hey, it's your cards and your entry fee.

[eriktyvollk]

Way behind you guys...