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Thread: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

  1. #521

    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    Quote Originally Posted by cdnza View Post
    This attitude is baffling to me but I have no interest in arguing with anyone. Florian (and others) if you are interested in talking about decks I highly encourage you to join the Enchantress discord. Feel free to PM me for an invite link if you can't find one otherwise.
    I would be happy to join your group. Could you please MP me the link ?
    I feel there is very little room for discussion here...

    Ben, I leave you with your sacred holy list :)
    You are so wrong on many statements in your last posts, but I don't see the point answering anymore.
    Pox -- Miracles -- Lands -- Candelabra Enchantress -- Dragon Stompy -- Eldrazi Stompy -- Sultai Control

  2. #522
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    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    @Ben, I'd like if you could sell me on some of your SB choices.

    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Carpet of Flowers
    2 Seal of Primordium
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Compost
    2 Deep Analysis
    1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
    1 Kitchen Finks
    1 Chill
    2 Invasive Surgery
    2 Mindbreak Trap

    This lets me board out a lot of what's terrible without sacrificing too much to make the deck function worse. Sometimes Seal of Removal is just better than a random hate card, even if it's not great, because it can keep the combo going and keep drawing cards, for instance. But it lets me get more resilient in the face of Discard or counterspells or Abrupt Decay decks (Deep Analysis, Compost, Garruk), lets me play some combo hate (Invasive Surgery, Mindbreak Trap and Tormod's Crypt all come in against storm, and some come in against some other decks), and still gives me one or two cards against Delver, since I don't need much more than that. It keeps moving a little bit, and I'd love to have some other cards that target Death and Taxes more directly, as I said before, but I think it's pretty balanced and doesn't have any huge holes.
    1. Is only 1 Tormod's Crypt ever useful? I've been alternating between 2 and 3 myself.
    2. I've seen the posts on Deep Analysis, and probably should try them myself. However, I don't see when it's better than compost against discard for instance. Or why I would pay 3 life against Delver.
    3. Garruk?? Isn't there a better payoff card? Why not original Wildspeaker? It can sometimes help in the combo and whatnot. I understand that blue is off limits due to blasts and all.

    Other than that, I have to say Invasive Surgery sounds really nice, as we often have delirium. Against Show and Tell, Reanimate, Exhume, Infernal Tutor, etc. I wonder if it's worth losing the instant counters on Flusterstorm.

  3. #523

    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    Yeah man, no problem.

    1.) For one Tormod's Crypt, it's been better than 0 and probably not as good as 2, so it's kind of a space issue. What I've found is that in most of the graveyard matchups (Dredge, Reanimator, Storm to a lesser degree), Elephant Grass is so good that it doesn't take much else. And again, going by my 2-4 card theory, I don't need much. So combining 1 Tormod's Crypt with 2 Invasive Surgery and 1 Compost gets me to the 4 cards that I need. Probably if I had the room a second Crypt (or maybe a Surgical Extraction) would be better in the matchup than the Compost since they're so fast, but if it's between having a semi-redundant card for Reanimator or being able to play, for instance, a Chill for the Moon Stompy lists, I'd rather hedge a little bit in that direction. But I have played more than one piece of graveyard hate in the past, and it's been good then, too. If you've got the space, it's definitely better than the Compost most of the time, but then I'd probably also consider a Lignify before the second Crypt if I were looking for help against Reanimator specifically. Which is not to say that Crypt isn't just better than Lignify, I just like having a diverse set of answers so they're live more often.

    2.) For me, Compost is a great secondary card against discard, but whenever I've leaned on it primarily to help against discard, it's been the first target for discard or it's come down too late to actually counteract their discard spells. Deep Analysis is my anti-discard card of choice because it functions even better if it gets discarded (most likely off of a Hymn to Tourach, since no one would ever target it with a Thoughtseize or something like that), and if it doesn't, it draws you four card to completely negate whatever they try to do. Other benefits include it being a great card against a counterspell-heavy deck like Miracles or Stoneblade (and being very resilient to counterspells), where Compost usually doesn't do much there. It does have the downside of costing life, which is a liability against the Delver decks with black, but against them I'm not boarding in very much, anyway. Like, against Death's Shadow (which is a great matchup, but which is a black Delver deck), I usually only want to take out 2 cards (Mindbreak Trap and most of the time Seal of Primordium, unless I have the soul read and know they've got Pithing Needle), which works well to bring in a Compost and a Carpet of Flowers and not spend much else sideboard space worrying about it. It would be nice to be able to have a card that does what Deep Analysis does without costing life, but then it would probably just be strictly better than Compost. But I like Deep Analysis against any deck that is trying to grind you out, especially any deck that is less aggressive like Grixis Control or Miracles, with Compost coming in a large percentage of the time if I have even more cards to cut.

    3.) Garruk looks awful, but he's been incredible for me in the past. I stumbled upon him while trying to figure out the Jund matchup back in the day, because he does exactly what I want: clogging up the board to stop from being attacked, being difficult to remove while taking over the game, and dodging Abrupt Decay and whatever enchantment hate they might have. With our acceleration there's really not much of a difference between costing 4 and 5, and I like the fact that this Garruk increases loyalty up to 5 when making beasts rather than going to 2 and being in Lightning Bolt range. It's one of my cards against Miracles where the Elephant Grasses aren't great and it gives some threat diversity like Jace would in the original lists, which makes us more difficult to play against. Kind of like anything else in the deck, it let's me cast a card that is immediately threatening to take over the game so that the opponent needs to answer it or lose to it, while in the mean time I can continue to develop my plan A of making enchantresses and drawing cards. I don't think Blue is necessarily off limits, and I do like Jace as an option (probably in place of Deep Analysis, but then Jace can be countered and discarded), but the other thing that Garruk can do that Jace can't is make infinite beasts when you're going off. So it can function like Emrakul would, giving you the opportunity to win in turns rather than take the draw, but it also is a much better card than Emrakul. I don't bring him in against Daze decks, clearly, but pretty much anything that's trying to grind where I have the space, like Miracles and Grixis. And if time is getting tight, he can come in then for game 3 for that reason.


    And for me the delirium on Invasive Surgery is a bonus when it happens; so far it's been rarer than you'd think since we almost never have instants or sorceries in the graveyard and Tormod's Crypt is our only artifact. Mostly I'd be happy with just Envelop, though Invasive Surgery is a strict upgrade. It's great against all of the combo decks because everything from Reanimator to Storm to Sneak and Show to Elves pretty much has to resolve a sorcery to win, and it can also stop discard spells (and Reverent Silence, in the nightmare scenario) so it's pretty much never a dead card. The only thing that sucks is having to leave up an Island, which is always bad, but it's probably necessary against the combo decks. And being a hard counter, even though Flusterstorm almost always functions as one, is a pretty important thing against Elves in particular.

    I do think Duress would be better, just because it's more flexible and a bit more of a sure-thing, but Invasive Surgery does most of what I need without having to splash any colors, so there's some value to that, too.

  4. #524
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    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    Thanks for your insight, I'll have to practice some of those to see how they fare.

  5. #525

    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    Just spitballin' here, but would it be possible to integrate Nexus of Fate as a 2 of in our deck? Question remains of course what to replace and why we would do this, since it would be win more... Guess I already answered my own question

  6. #526

    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    That's not a terrible idea, though it's definitely not needed and pretty win-more. I think if you really wanted to start taking all of the turns, something simpler like Time Warp would probably be more efficient, and would function better with Eternal Witness loops. But yeah, at the point where you are bouncing their board every turn, you're basically casting Time Walk every turn anyway since at that point they never do anything meaningful for the rest of the game. I will say, the idea of casting Time Warp 600 times then passing the turn gets me excited from a crushing-their-will-to-live standpoint, but completely unnecessary.

  7. #527
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    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    Gaining some turns can also help in some matchups, to establish the board. However, If you can play some enchantments AND cast Time Warp, that is probably the definition of win more.

    I played my list yesterday, with the following sideboard:

    2 Compost
    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Duress
    1 Mindbreak Trap
    2 Seal of Primordium
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Dread of Night
    1 Engineered Plague
    1 Mindbreak Trap
    2 Carpet of Flowers

    I went 1-2-1, which is the worst I've had lately.

    RD 1, UB Shadow. 2-0
    Easy wins, both with Elephant Grass as the key player. Watch out for Ratchet bombs, so side in some Seals of Primordium. Otherwise, apart from some discard pressure, COmpost is obviously good here.

    RD 2, Death and Taxes 1-2
    I lose game one even though I had a great start. Thalia and Port slow me down just enough so that Sanctum Prelate Makes it too hard to win. I win game two off a great start, including bouncing Thalia on turn two and three. The guy had no chance here. I lose game three off their nut draw. Turn 1 mother, turn 2 Thalia, turn 3 Mirran Crusader, turn 4 Ethersworn and port activation, turn five sanctum prelate and concede. Really nothing I could do with my hand. I had sided in the artifact hate and the dread of night. Feels insufficient.

    RD 3, Burn 1-2
    I win game one, getting an incredible Mindbreak Trap on Chain Lightning after a Riftbolt and a Guide on turn 2. Great stuff! I win with a stable 9 lives at the end. I lose game 2 because of a quick hand and an Eidolon I cannot answer. Game three is very tight. My duresses give me some time, along with Eternal Witness being great too. I still cannot assemble combo quick enough and die from burn spells. I probably could have played this game better and won, but it feels very hard as always.

    RD 4, Lands 1-1
    I win game one off a mull to 5, and the game is never really in his grasp. I los game two and keep a risky hand that relies on keeping my GSZed Dryad to actually play stuff. This part works fine, but my opp plays turn one Tireless Tracker with Tomb and Mox. He goes on and wins in 4 turns from there. When I play my seal of removal, I decide not to activate immediately and he Krosan Grips it. So much for that, I probably would have won that one. Time is called as I start the third game. I had sided in the Faerie Macabres and Seals of Primordium.

    Overall, I did not like not having Doomwake Giant against D&T. Feels very hard against their good, but somewhat frequent hands. Either I put them back in or increase the Dread of Night count, or Massacre??
    Faerie Macabre feels okay, it's probably the best I can have against Reanimator turn one, and doubles as a threat I can actually cast. I'll try it some more.

    Maybe 1 compost should become Lignify to bring in against Leovold decks, D&T and Fatties.dec

    Keep the comments coming, I'd really like to make this work for Baltimore. I'm torn between this and Canadian Thresh which I've also been playing for some time now. Canadian Thresh doesn't feel right for the meta though.

  8. #528

    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    My main thought on Dread of Night is that you probably want to be playing 2+ or 0. When I was watching the PT coverage LSV said something that really struck me, which is that Dread of Night is one of the best sideboard cards in the format because just resolving one against Death and Taxes is one of the highest win-percentage shifting plays in all of Legacy (second maybe only to Surgical Extraction against Reanimator). That's the reason why they played 3 in their sideboards, to greatly increase the odds of seeing 1 in a situation that it matters when their cantrips are being pressured. Three is probably a lot for us given how many cards we draw over the course of the game (though I wouldn't fault you for it), but I think you want at least 2 because just landing one turns Seal of Removal back on. I think given the state of the metagame, since this feels pretty close to a 50/50 matchup (I think we are a small favorite, but not a comfortable one), I'd find space for a second Dread of Night. I do agree though, with our deck set up the way that it is, I think that Doomwake Giant is too ambitious in that matchup. I've also moved away from Engineered Plague. Normally that would be a viable card against D&T, but for us naming "Human" wrecks us just as hard as them, and I think there are better cards for Elves or Goblins if that's a thing you're worried about. Massacre would similarly wreck them and us equally in a lot of situations. I think Dread of Night is where you want to be in that matchup, and again, I'd try to play two or three.

    I also think that I'd prefer Surgical Extraction to Faerie Macabre since most of the Reanimator in the world these days doesn't play counterspells. In a lot of situations I think they'd be pretty much identical, but Surgical Extraction is a much better card against a lot of other things like Life from the Loam or Storm (most of the time). My preference is to do a split there, probably 1 Tormod's Crypt and 1 Surgical Extraction, but I'm also not against loading up on the best card for Reanimator (which is SE) given the texture of the format. We're way more likely to see Reanimator than Dredge, for example, and Surgical Extraction is still a worthwhile card against most graveyard decks. The life loss is pretty irrelevant against any of the decks we'd be bringing it in against, and pretty much no matter what we play, we've got the infinite rebuys with Eternal Witness. I've also done good work with Wheel of Sun and Moon which sort of functions like a Rest in Peace that doesn't affect us at all, but I like playing that card against slower graveyard based decks, or in situations where I want some splash hate on Snapcaster Mages and Life from the Loam. I think we're pretty set on those matchups now, but it is an option. I also don't hate Ground Seal as a slow anti-Reanimator/Snapcaster Mage/Life from the Loam card (while simultaneously protecting US from Surgical Extraction), but that does shut off Eternal Witness for us which is why I tend to avoid it. It was also better as a value card with Deathrite Shaman in the format, and there are better and faster cards against exactly Reanimator, so I don't think there's any real reason to go that direction.

    I think Burn is such a tough matchup because even if you board in 2 Chill and 2 other cards it's probably still 60/40 in their favor. That is one matchup where traditional Enchantress is much stronger since they play 2-3 Solitary Confinement (and most play 4 Leyline of Sanctity out of the sideboard), but for me I just choose to more or less dodge. There are cards we can play, it's just such a small part of the metagame that I'd rather have a random Chill + Kitchen Finks + 3-4 Disenchants to just sometimes cheese them out on the rare times that I play against them, and otherwise not even devote any mental energy to the matchup. Sometimes you randomly just beat them, but most often you lose. I wouldn't even be playing the Chill if it didn't also hit Moon Stompy decks and Goblins, and the first copy of a card is the highest-impact copy, so that makes it worth it to me. It might even be a wasted slot, but I'm personally a big fan of super high-impact cards coming out of the sideboard so that when you do draw them it's devastating. I do think the Duresses are a nice bit of incidental hate, though I would probably add at least a Kitchen Finks just so you've got a reliable turn 3 play that absorbs a lot of their tempo and will lock them out of the game once you establish the lock. And, again, Kitchen Finks is a fine card against a lot of other Lightning Bolt and/or Abrupt Decay strategies anyway, so that's why it's never far from my 75.

    For the rest, I'm also just a big fan of splitting cards 1 and 1, rather than playing 2's. That probably didn't come across very well in the last sideboard that I posted, I just generally like to have multiple ways to solve the same issues since it lets me get more mileage out of my sideboard, while also making me harder to play against and increasing the probability that my hate will line up in any given situation. So yeah, I'd probably prefer Lignify + Compost vs. 2 Compost, or Faerie Macabre + Surgical Extraction vs. 2 Faerie Macabre, things like that. The only time I'll go super hard for one specific card is when it is 1) an effect that I really, really need in a matchup and 2) when there are no good analogs in the format. Dread of Night is a great example, or Mindbreak Trap and Invasive Surgery in the sideboard that I'd posted. Those are just the best cards I can be playing (though I would prefer Duress over Invasive Surgery, as I'd said before, if I were playing black), and they're things that I need to see, and in multiples, to increase my chances of winning enough to be worth the slots.

  9. #529

    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    I got to test a little bit against Reanimator, and against Miracles, both with a sort of "open sideboard", where I found that for Miracles I really don't need much since it's as extremely good of a matchup as I remember. For Reanimator, the Envelop/Invasive Surgery was pretty effective, but I also found myself needing the Lignify a bit more since a typical play-pattern was to have them combo off, answer their first guy, then eventually drop an extra Seal of Removal (or Eternal Witness/Green Sun's Zenith for one) and drop some graveyard hate to seal the game. It's not perfectly effective since they are so fast, but I was finding trying to stop them from comboing off the first time was pretty miserable since they have so much discard. Though a weakness of that deck as compared to the UB version is the relative inconsistency, so over the course of 3 games they tend to have one great hand and two average ones. Tormod's Crypt is pretty effective on the play. That all changes some of my thinking in that matchup, making me prefer Tormod's Crypt over Surgical Extraction (though a split may still be correct) and finding the Envelop slot to be useful but not quite light's out, since most likely it just stops their first discard spell. Which is sometimes enough if it's pointed at them, but usually it doesn't do all that much. All that put in perspective, here's where I'm at right now:

    2 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Carpet of Flowers
    1 Lignify
    2 Seal of Primordium
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
    1 Kitchen Finks
    2 Chill
    1 Invasive Surgery
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    1 Deep Analysis

    Also, congratulations to Andrew Cuneo on winning the GP, with his typical wry sense of self-effacement.

  10. #530
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    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    I'm still working on the numbers for some of our harder matchups.

    Graveyard Hate : I settled for the 2 Tormod's Crypt as my graveyard hoser of choice. Against Reanimator, I can land it before they make me discard and against Lands I can get quite a few cards and easily get it back with Witness.

    D&T : I don't know what to do, as I really appreciate having many disenchant effects, but I cannot side in too many cards. If I increase the Dread of Night count, maybe I'm hedging to much for that single matchup? I also want to add a lignify back in the 75 to deal with Sanctum Prelate.

    ANT : I feel like having 4-5 cards that prevent their combo is light to really hope to win games 2 and 3. TES is easier to beat though, as they rely on ETW much more.

    Burn: Feels hard, just like ANT. I may add a Kitchen Finks back to the 75 to help. I don't like Chill at all.

    I changed my extra land in the MD so that my four flex spots are now 1 Carpet of Flowers, 1 Mirri's Guile, 1 Seal of Primordium and 1 Mindbreak Trap.

    Here's what my SB looks like today:

    2 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Duress
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Mindbreak Trap
    1 Carpet of Flowers
    2 Dread of Night
    2 Seal of Primordium
    1 Compost
    1 Lignify
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Kitchen Finks

  11. #531

    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    I'm trying to avoid the whole "You should just play my 75" because I think there's a lot of merit to what you're doing and thinking. I will say that one way that I've been able to get enough space and versatility out of my sideboard while still being able to play like a bunch of Chill or a specific hate card in numbers (like you would be with your Dread of Night) is to play 2 Carpet of Flowers, 1 Seal of Primordium and 1 Mindbreak Trap in the main deck. That way I've got an easy swap out for whatever I need and I don't have to even have a Carpet of Flowers in the sideboard if I don't want it.

    So for your sideboard you've already got a fair number of cards that you'd want for the Daze matchups (Compost for Grixis and Death's Shadow, Kitchen Finks for Grixis, RUG and UR Delver) and not much to take out (pretty much just the Mindbreak Trap), so I'd not even use a sideboard slot on Carpet of Flowers. I do like having access to two in that matchup which is why I'd move it main over Mirri's Guile, but then I never really liked Guile in this deck. If it's working for you I'd keep it, I just feel that it dilutes your ability to run more impactful cards.

    I like Tormod's Crypt against Reanimator, and I think your reasoning is sound. One thought I'd had that I might try is a Scavening Ooze. Not because it's better against Reanimator or any deck in particular (it's just different), but because it gives me a decent card against decks that are trying to grind me out (fights Snapcaster Mage, Kolaghan's Command, Delve spells to a lesser extent) while also giving us an out against someone who might try to get us with Surgical Extraction. I see a lot of people who don't have much in their sideboards for us, but pretty much everyone is running 2-3 Surgical Extraction, so I see it coming in a lot against us. I think it's terrible and a waste of a card, but it can also make things annoying and it seems like everyone is making that choice, so having a card I can board in if they go for that plan game 2 that I can find with GSZ seems strong. It is weak to a lot of removal so I'm not saying it's definitely right, just something I want to test. It's an objectively stronger card in our deck than Ground Seal or Wheel of Sun and Moon, that's for sure.

    For Burn, I'd just ignore it. I think the one Kitchen Finks is worth playing against every Lighting Bolt deck so you don't have to keep in Mindbreak Trap, and a high-impact card in the burn matchup, I just wouldn't expect to face it more than once in a 15 round tournament so it's probably fine to just dodge. I only have the Chills in the deck because they're randomly good against the other mono-red decks in the format, but I'm not even convinced that they're worth the slots. But I do need something to swap for Carpet of Flowers in the Burn matchup, so that felt better than loading up on Seal of Primordium (which are still fine, just not aces).

    For Death and Taxes and ANT I think you have some options. Against Death and Taxes, I completely understand not wanting to take too much out. That's been a battle for me, too. I think you probably have three easy cuts (Carpet, Mirri's Guile, Mindbreak Trap) and then after that you have to start boarding out cards that are still functional-to-good in the matchup. I think Seal of Removal is weaker than Elephant Grass because of Aether Vial, but then if your mana is going to be taxed Elephant Grass can be expensive. But with Dread of Night, I think that you can probably get away with boarding in fewer Disenchants (maybe 2 Dread of Night, 1 Seal of Primordium, with another one if you really want it more than the fourth Seal of Removal), just because there's not a whole lot that they can Vial in that is scary with a Dread of Night on the table. I can understand a desire for Lignify against Sanctum Prelate, but I think that would be over-boarding. For one, if they ever get to activate a Mother of Runes they can just kill your Lignify at no cost. Also, if they put Sanctum Prelate on 1 (most likely) you can win eventually with Words of Wind, and if they put it on 3 you can bounce it with Seal of Removal, so it's very annoying but not quite a hard lock against us. I do still think you want the full 4 Disenchants after sideboard against Chalice decks or Counterbalance, but you can do a lot of work with 2 Seal of Primordium that you keep recycling against Death and Taxes. It's an interesting matchup with a lot of play, I just wouldn't stress out too much if I were you. Dread of Night is going to almost single-handedly win that one.

    One other note, I'd also consider going back to the 1 Krosan Grip over a Seal of Primordium. I've had a few occasions where someone has named Seal of Primordium with Pithing Needle/Sorcerous Spyglass/Phyrexian Revoker which stranded some of the cards in my hand. It's functionally the same card in most situations, and it gains a little bit against Counterspells. I'm a big fan of Seal of Primordium, I just think I'll switch back for those reasons.

    ANT I think is always going to be poor, and the reason why I'm excited about this deck now is that I haven't seen much of ANT in the big tournaments. It's around, and honestly I think it's still a fine choice, but it is way less popular than it used to be. I think since you're in black I would consider the Leovold + a million Mindbreak Trap plan if you're worried about that deck in particular. Nothing will be a hard lock, but that both helps you against the heavy discard that they will have (some having 4 Duress and 4 Thoughtseize) and messes with their ability to sculpt with Brainstorm and Ponder, while also giving you a high probability to draw into Mindbreak Trap once they've put a lethal Tendrils of Agony on the stack. They can kill Leovold before casting Tendrils of Agony, but they have to have Abrupt Decay or Fatal push in their deck at the time which seems pretty loose against a Mindbreak Trap strategy. Even then you're drawing a card, and if they don't beat you on that turn you can Eternal Witness the Leovold back. Really the only downside to Leovold is that it completely changes the numbers in the sideboard since it's an effective card against almost every deck in the format. You could even run him main-deck and it would be a dead card a very small percentage of the time. But I think you're about as likely to see ANT as Burn, so you should also keep that in mind when picking what matchups to focus on.

    I think we're getting close which is exciting since I've got a tournament coming up in October myself. I'm hopeful that things will go well for you in Baltimore. If watching one of the Hatfield brothers on camera at the GP taught me anything it's that Elephant Grass actually is a super strong choice for the metagame right now. It has to be, otherwise I'm not sure how he'd have made day 2 with some of the choices he made.

  12. #532
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    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    Thank you for your comments. They are very useful in working out the final numbers before Baltimore.

    Edit: I understand that presently, combo decks are less prevalent than they were, mostly due to discard spells being so rampant these days. With that in mind, I believe it is necessary to hedge increasingly against discard if we are to survive in this meta.

    Ways to beat discard include the following, in no particular order:

    - Make your topdecks better (cards that are better on their own / enchantresses)
    - Having cards that get better in discard matchups (Compost, Eternal Witness, Deep Analysis, etc.)
    - Having cards that prevent discard (Leyline of Sanctity)

    Here are my thoughts on theses different strategies:

    In the past, I have tried Leyline of Sanctity, which also doubled as a great way to stop burn and Storm. However, I feel like it would be a poor card to side in against Aggro decks with discard. Also, the variance is very high and I do not presently play white, which would mean adding another non basic.

    Having 12 enchantresses has worked in the previous meta, but it may be time to bring a 13th one back, like Eidolon of Blossoms. Or add another win con, like Garruk.

    Compost and Deep Analysis are both great, and maybe are the way to go.

    Eternal Witness should absolutely not be cut in this meta.

    That said, I might try to add an Eidolon somewhere in the 75, and maybe change the Lignify for a Deep Analysis.

    Any additional thoughts on beating fair discard decks (both Grixis Control and Death's Shadow run ~5-7 in their 75)?
    Last edited by Turboninja; 09-11-2018 at 09:57 AM.

  13. #533
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    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    I know the card has already been mentioned on this thread, but nonetheless, I'd like to bring the discussion back.

    What do you think of Mana Maze as a card to beat Burn and Storm (and bonus points against elves!)? Against Storm, it feels pretty strong, mostly now gitaxian probe is gone. They only have cantrips and artifacts that aren't black, which probably can gain you enough time to get there. Against burn, it's probably not strong enough, but it can sure slow them done if they have a hand full of sorceries or creatures. Against elves! it's a blowout and requires them to get their reclamation sage or bust.

    Is this better than discard or counterspells? It has the advantage of being an enchantment which is pretty useful.

    Another thought: how would Metamorphic Alteration be? It's a great card to have against Sneak and Show and reanimator, either to copy their threat or to make their threat a 1/1 flying or a 0/1 shroud. It fills the roll of Lignify while also having plenty of marginal advantages, such as making your dryad into another enchantress if you need more draws.

    I do not think either of these is worth going in the 75, but maybe I'm missing something to make it tip over.

    Edit:
    I played some rounds yesterday, here is a quick recap. RD 1 Loss against Elves! Archon of Valor's Reach was hard to beat! RD 2 Loss against Burn. Kitchen Finks was really great here however and almost gave me the win. RD 3 Win against Faerie Ninjastill. Nothing hard here, Elephant Grass and Carpet of Flowers were great. RD 4 Win against D&T. I did not see a single Prelate and I saw plenty of artifact removal!

    I'm probably overthinking it these days! Anyway, after some thought, I'm not so sure of the black splash. Duress and Dread of Night do not seem worth a splash. When I had Doomwake, I think it mattered more. To replace it, I've been thinking of trying white again, and adding 2-3 Solitary Confinements. I think our deck can play through the confinement as easily as regular Enchantress, and that card is nuts and can really take away games (such as burn and ANT, but also any non green/white deck). I'll still have to think of something to beat D&T.

    Edit number 2:

    Myabe Swan Song is the counterspell we need. It does a great impression of Invasive Surgery, while also helping against Sneak Attack and others. The 2/2 will rarely be important in the matchups we bring it in.

    What about Lunar Force to replace the Mindbreak Trap in the MD? I serves the same purpose of making sure to close out games, while still being somewhat relevant mid combo.

    Here's the baseline for the SB I'm thinking about.

    2 Tormod's Crypt
    3 Swan Song
    3 Solitary Confinement
    1 Carpet of Flowers
    2 Seal of Primordium
    1 Deep Analysis
    1 Eidolong of Blossoms
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Kitchen Finks
    Last edited by Turboninja; 09-13-2018 at 09:32 AM.

  14. #534

    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    I think beating fair discard decks is one of the more important things we can do with our SB slots. In theory a deck that draws a million cards should be well positioned against Thoughtseize, though in practice it's pretty easy to get picked apart and lose, so it's worth addressing. In my sideboard I've got 1 Deep Analysis for discard specifically, though I also have some other cards that are helpful for stopping them from grinding. The Garruk is a great card which, as I said before, is really tough for most slow fair decks to deal with in any sort of effective way, and provides an alternate angle of attack which is pretty underrated. It's been really strong and I like the ability to make infinite beasts to close out games if needed, though I rarely go to the trouble unless I've played badly and am in turns. I also have been liking Scavenging Ooze/Relic of Progenitus as anti Snapcaster Mage/Kolaghan's Command/Life from the Loam/Surgical Extraction cards. One is more effective and easier to find (Scavenging Ooze), and one is less fragile and doesn't require leaving mana up (Relic of Progenitus), but both provide the insurance I was looking for against Surgical Extraction while still being good value cards against grindy decks and functioning as a card against Reanimator, though clearly just worse than most of the other options. Also, one card that is pretty clearly broken-in-half in the current metagame (and is specifically great against non-Miracles grindy decks) is Back to Basics. If I were you I would find space for two in your 75. Every time I've played with it it has been nuts.

    I do think that Dread of Night may be overkill at this point, but like I said before, I wouldn't fault you for running it. Death and Taxes has pulled back a bit since the first tournaments post-Deathrite Shaman, but it's still a tricky matchup with a lot of play that you will almost certainly face at some point during a 15 round tournament. A lot of doing well in tournament Magic is about picking the matchups you want to crush and then getting lucky enough to not just play against Burn and Storm for 4 rounds before you drop. Sometimes you're going to nail the metagame and crush the tournament, but more often it's about having a reliable plan against every deck you will reasonably face and just choosing to lose to a small number of less-played decks. That's why I'm more worried about Sneak and Show or Reanimator than Storm or Elves, or Death's Shadow instead of Burn, even though those matchups are way better, I'd rather just lose to Storm and Burn and make Reanimator 55/45 if given the choice since I'm way more likely to face that matchup. I'd rather play Dread of Night than Chill generally speaking, even though I think Death and Taxes is closer to even and Burn is pretty bad, but I'd be surprised to see Burn whereas I'd be surprised to not see Death and Taxes. There are other considerations (like not wanting to splash a third color...), but that's my philosophy with building sideboards, and I think it's doubly important with this deck since there are a lot of matchups that you couldn't flip even with 12 cards. I just embrace that, rather than pulling my hair out trying to fix a 20/80 matchup like Storm.

    I don't mind Eidolon of Blossoms, particularly since it turns Green Sun's Zenith into a draw spell, but it will always be the most fragile of our Enchantress effects. My gut tells me if you want it, it's probably main, but then it's definitely going to be better in sideboard games where the opponent should be trimming some of their Fatal Pushes and Lightning Bolts, so maybe out of the sideboard makes the most sense. For my money, I'd rather play Garruk and Deep Analysis (probably even a second Deep Analysis before Eidolon), but I think Eidolon of Blossoms is a legitimate card if you like it. Or if you are considering white, play 1-2 Replenish. It is a huge bomb against grindy decks completely negating their entire gameplan. Replenish also happens to be nuts with Eidolon in play, so there's that. I would almost splash white for Replenish alone, though I think Deep Analysis is more reliable, even if it's not hilarious like Replenish.

    For other white cards, I think Solitary Confinement has more application than Leyline of Sanctity, which I've also played in the past and found to be just okay. It does really destroy Burn which feels really good when you play against them, I just don't think it's worth 4 slots because, as you said, you probably don't want it against the fair discard decks, and while it isn't terrible against Storm, it's not lights out. I also liked it more when Liliana of the Veil was the Liliana of choice, since in those days it was a great card against Jund since it was immune to Abrupt Decay. With the new Abrupt Decay coming out, I'm a little more hesitant to make "costs >3" a huge selling point until some of the hype dies down and we know exactly how much people really want to play that card. I haven't ever used Solitary Confinement in this deck, just because this deck is way more of a combo deck with prison elements, rather than a prison deck with a combo finish. It's a subtle distinction, I've just never seriously considered Solitary Confinement for that reason but I think it could be worth playing since it has text against most of the decks in the format. If you end up playing white, Gaddock Teeg is too good not to play.

    I'm not sure I like a lot of these other ideas. I'd seen Lunar Force, but my first impression was that just countering the first spell is way, way worse than being able to tag anything after the second spell. They have different weaknesses, I just see my Storm opponent playing a spare Lotus Petal, getting it countered (and getting the storm count), and then going off as usual. I don't think Mana Maze does much in the traditional combo matchups, either. It's great against Elves and Burn (though maybe only as good as Chill), and it's good against Omnishow (while probably being a blank against more traditional Sneak and Show), but against Storm it's been pretty soft in the past. In practice, it's not hard for them to weave in Lotus Petals and Ponders between their Dark Rituals, so while it makes them have to think more, it's not actually much of a stopper. In the Eye of Chaos has usually just been much better if you're thinking about beating Storm, and it's also strong against control decks and other blue-based combo decks. I do like that Mana Maze costs less, but in this deck costing 2 or costing 3 doesn't really make a difference in how quickly you can deploy it. And there's always the fact that Mana Maze can make for awkwardness on our side when going off, though probably a lot like any of the other anti-combo permanents like Sphere of Resistance or Arcane Laboratory, you'd just bounce or kill it when you're ready to go off and then replay it at the end of your turn. But that's a terrible plan against Burn.

    I think Swan Song is also a legitimate card, though in my sideboard building I try to avoid cards that require mana being kept up on the opponent's turn wherever possible. So I'm down to just one Envelop effect, and even that's only there because it counts as a Reanimator card and a Storm card and a Miracles card (in a pinch). If you like Swan Song more than Invasive Surgery, then that's cool, though I prefer the narrowness since I don't want to board it in against the whole format and being more restrictive/powerful out of the sideboard keeps me from developing poor habits and overboarding. Which is probably a terrible excuse, but it seems to work for me. I'd still only play one if I were you, and get the rest of your edge from more targeted cards. As bad as some matchups may feel, I think the biggest discipline of this deck is restricting yourself to 3-4 cards in the sideboard for most matchups, since otherwise you're taking out functional cards or even good cards for good cards and just wasting space. I'd rather have Elephant Grass over Swan Song against Reanimator, for instance, or Seal of Primordium against Sneak and Show since it has more utility elsewhere.

    I had not seen Metamorphic Alteration before; that card does look like Lignify with upside, as you say. There is the fact that Lignify is green, so it's theoretically easier to cast, and you also don't have to have another creature in play when you cast it, but I think on the balance that's a pretty good upgrade. It's such a marginal slot that it probably doesn't matter much, but it's probably good enough to make the cut.

    One last thought, if you're worried about Elves: one of the best cards against them is Cursed Totem. It was a better card when everyone was playing Deathrite Shaman, but it completely hoses Elves and the only thing it does against us is stop us from cycling Cloud of Faeries. I've personally found Mindbreak Trap + Invasive Surgery to be enough SB cards for that matchup, but it is an option if you're worried about it.

  15. #535
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    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    Spoiler:



    This card looks perfect for our deck, joining Reclamation Sage and Infinite Life in a single card. I believe it could come MD simply due to its versatility. It also convinces me to play white.

    As for your comments, I agree with most of what you say concerning the fringe cards I proposed. I will give Confinement a shot in Baltimore and report back.

  16. #536

    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    Geez, that is a good card for us. Though for a second I thought he said "Put two +1/+1 counters on any creature you control" which would have been absolutely insane. But as is, it condenses one spot for us, at the cost of splashing white (if not already). It will eat a Lightning Bolt out of Burn (so it's worth like 2+ burn spells) and it probably won't stick around to block, but it can also 2-for-1 burn if they have Eidolon or Pyrostatic Pillar in play. My current plan is to bring in a good number of Disenchants in that matchup anyway, since Eidolon is real bad for us and they sometimes have other targets, so it's not like the functionality isn't there in that matchup, but it's nice to be on one card. Really, I see this as being just generally bad for Burn, since most decks that would have played a Reclamation Sage now have incidental hate for burn. I think that against that matchup specifically, Kitchen Finks is still slightly better since it is a better blocker, but probably not better than just gaining a sideboard slot for free. Sweet card.

  17. #537

    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    Quote Originally Posted by benthetenor View Post
    One last thought, if you're worried about Elves: one of the best cards against them is Cursed Totem. It was a better card when everyone was playing Deathrite Shaman, but it completely hoses Elves and the only thing it does against us is stop us from cycling Cloud of Faeries. I've personally found Mindbreak Trap + Invasive Surgery to be enough SB cards for that matchup, but it is an option if you're worried about it.
    Cursed Totem only blocks activated abilities of creatures on the battlefield

  18. #538

    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    That's very interesting, you are totally right. I would have thought "activated abilities" was universal, though I guess when it was printed virtually every creature activated ability only existed when the creature was in play. Even better!

    Though it should be noted, Cursed Totem will shut off Dryad Arbor if you're running that. I forgot to mention that, though again, it's not really a deal breaker, more of a thing to keep in mind so you don't forget during a tournament and get DQ'ed for cheating.

  19. #539

    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    dredge90's Lotus Petal got me thinking, so I ran a league with a bunch of those in place of lands, sort of to get a feel for it vs. where I would have had Chrome Mox in some of my older builds. The short answer is that while the lesser card disadvantage is good, it's probably still just worse than Chrome Mox since going turn 1 Enchantress doesn't do a whole lot when you've only got 2 mana at most on turn 2. I did really miss how the deck runs when some number of your lands are Moxes which can often make a huge difference when you're going off on thin margins (and which the Lotus Petal did even better than Chrome Mox), so that may still be worth looking at. For this experiment, I decided that the consistency that you get with Dryad Arbor is probably just better than playing with Lotus Petal, but I am interested in Chrome Mox again for sure. Went 4-1, lost to Storm (duh), so it didn't destroy the deck, it just made things feel a lot less smooth.

    I also ultimately think that running Mox vs Dryad Arbor is largely going to be up to preference, since both have times and places where they are superior but neither is just clearly better all the time. I know when Cuneo was developing the deck he had both cards in place at various times (though the most I'd ever seen him run is 1 Chrome Mox, which always felt kind of random to me). When you draw the Dryad Arbor it feels terrible, whereas when you draw the Mox it's usually great, but then Dryad Arbor has an outsized effect, since running just 1 gives you 4 more accelerants in the deck. The Dryad Arbor feels more stable, whereas the Chrome Mox gets you on the board faster (turn 1 Argothian Enchantress is super awesome) and helps keep things turning when you're going off, but then when you're going off you're usually winning anyway. It's a tough call, just depends on what you like I think.

  20. #540
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    Re: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

    I played the deck at SCG Baltimore to a 4-4 finish. 4-3 on the Classic.


    The deck ran great and I will write a proper report when I have time. I had great matchups and should have gotten a better score. However, Dryad Arbor was hellbent on making me lose and was in my opening seven 12 times over the week-end. I lost to Bryant Cook, Michael Keller and Jody Keith. At least I had a blast!

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