I played a tournament yesterday with UG-enchantress and it didn't went well. I ended 1-2-3. Quick report:
R1 0-2 Painter
G1 he drops a lot of artifacts (3 artifact land, 1 Mox opal, 1 SDT) and I think that I'm facing some strange build of affinity so I drop a bit of acceleration, enchantress and Grass. T3 he suddenly drops Painter + Grindstone and goes to town. On to G2! I side in my emrakul to trump his grindstone (he didn't see Emmie G1 and didn't notice the Living wish). But allas, T2 I draw the big fattie and he comboes T3.
R2 1-1 Nic-Fit
G1 takes a long time on both sides. Eventually he lands a Deed and deeds away my board. He casted 3 Cabal Therapy this game! No fun! G2 is a grindy one in wich I manage to combo just as Time is called.
R3 2-0 UW-miracles
G1 & 2 are pretty fast over as he stumbles on land and I draw all the goodies needed for a quick combo.
R4 1-1-1 Stoneblade
G1 takes 25 minutes but I can eventually combo through his discard and counters. For G2 he sides no less then 11!!!!! cards. Needless to say that I lose this one. T1 duress wich takes an enchantress, followed with after my draw extract on enchantress. T2 Thoughtseize Presence. T3 SFM for Jitte. T4 thoughtseize. T5 Snapcaster flashback extract and that was it...G3 we start off just as Time is called and neither of us can finish the match.
R5 0-2 BUG
G1 I'm stuck on 2 land and get run over by Goyfs and Delver (thanks to his Mastery). G2 is the opposite of G1. I draw 5 land in a row and die to a Goyf and a Delver.
R6 1-1-1 UR-Burn
G1 I start the combo, but he burns me out with double Lavamancer, Price of Progress (I had 1 Tropical in play) and Fireblast. G2 is mine as I land T2 Chill, T3 Chill and he gets stuck on 3 land. G3 we're in T4 as time is called. He can't race me (2 grasses) and I'm still at a healthy 16 (thanks double ItEoC).
It was a nice tournament but I'm feeling this deck has some problems. First off, I had several games where I drew to many lands. Okay, this can happen. But GSZ for Arbor T1 only to see it being plowed or terminussed doesn't make you feel good. And that happened more then you can think. So, I'm going to cut the dryad and play a Mox instead. Testing will continue!
It more or less depends on your meta and that's all there is too say.Originally Posted by r3dd09
While the Chrome Mox is a more "reliant" accelerant, it eats up that card.
In late game or combo, it isn't as dead a card since you can imprint and continue.
Arbor can be handled more easily but adds more net worth to those Zenith.
Still you can drop it via Zenith for excess mana when not comboing out,
enchant it if it is your only Forest (and yes I know it is a bad choice) or beat face.
Overall I would say there is less hate for mox (though some ppl. will counter
it (especially early on)) but you run the chance of removal.
I would suggest to cut 2 Green Sun's Zenith during the initial testing
to see if these slots's mid to late game redundancy can be used for other options when
you test w/o that Arbor.
Also it would open up the deck to a variety of sideboard options I was considering but
never implemented.
Specifically hosers like Grafdigger's Cage or Wheel of Sun and Moon.
Looking forward to your findings.
Regards,
Matt
I would suggest not ever cutting any number of Green Sun's Zenith ever. The strength of the deck over other builds of Enchantress, the thing that makes it two or three turns faster, is access to 12 Enchantresses. That will always be the primary purpose of Green Sun's Zenith is to find more and more Argothian Enchantresses. The deck doesn't run a full 4 Green Sun's Zenith because it has Dryad Arbor, it was merely suggested that you run Dryad Arbor because the deck is already playing with Green Sun's Zenith.
I like this list i made.
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest
3 Eternal Witness
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Words of Wind
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Seal of Removal
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Temporal Fissure
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Deep Analysis
SB: 2 Compost
SB: 2 Chill
SB: 3 Envelop
SB: 2 Seal of Primordium
Any explanation at all of your choices would be good. For starters, you've got 61 cards, and I don't really see what's added to the deck by putting in Temporal Fissure when the deck's purpose is already to bounce your opponent's entire board in a way that doesn't target and is difficult for counterspells to stop.
I do like some of the things in your sideboard, though. Not sure what Envelop is for specifically that Flusterstorm wouldn't just be better at (and more versatile, to boot), but I like the idea of Deep Analysis coming in against decks with counterspells to give you more ways to overload them. That was a trick from 2003 Extended UG Enchantress that worked pretty well.
I'm playing 60 cards. You maybe miscounted.
Myself am not very sure of the Temporal Fissure, but i had the Idea to play 1 after getting my Words of Wind extirpated. Sometimes you draw it randomly, and you go turn 3 Growth, 1 Drop, Cloud of Faeries, Temporal Fissure your board which buys you enough time to win the game no matter what.
I'm playing Envelop because it's simply better at countering Show and Tell. SNT decks are playing different forms of acceleration, mostly Lotus Petals and Ancient Tombs, which lets them pay for soft counters most of the time. It's also better at countering Glimpse of Nature and Green Sun's Zenith against Elves, which is a deck that can produces ridiculous amounts of mana with Priest of Titania and Gaea's cradle shenanigans. I don't mind it being narrow, because it does what i want it to do. It counters Glimpse of Nature, Green Sun's Zenith, Show and Tell, Doomsday, Infernal tutor, Burning Wish, Hymn to Tourachs and Thoughtseize. But maybe you are right, Flusterstorm hits more cards after all. It may depend of the metagame.
And yeah, i think Carpet of Flowers + Deep Analysis in SB crushes all the blue decks, seriously, i think that in this deck, DA is better than Jace TMS.. It gives you the juice you need to go off.
I did miscount, sorry about that.
Probably the biggest reason why I'd prefer something like Flusterstorm over Envelop is because it can't really be countered. If the combo deck we're up against is trying to go off as fast as possible, then they'll usually try to go off at the bare minimum of mana with a Force of Will or Daze in hand, which has a chance to stop Envelop, whereas Flusterstorm doesn't care as much. The versatility is a good reason, but it is true that that slot in the sideboard is almost entirely just to stop combo, so the narrowness of Envelop doesn't bother me all that much either. I think in the more traditional combo matchups like ANT and Belcher and High Tide, Flusterstorm is better, whereas against Show and Tell, Envelop is better. Elves is probably a wash, but my plan for beating them is to play more Moat effects to keep them from ever attacking me. I like Flusterstorm more in matchups like Burn or maybe some decks that would bring in discard (BUG and Stoneblade come to mind) since it can also slow their development or snag some counterspells in addition to protecting us from their discard, but overall that slot is for Combo so it makes sense to use the best anti-combo card you can find. Envelop is definitely a good choice.
Do you find a lot of need for a third Eternal Witness? The only real reason I've seen a need for a second is so that you've got enough ammo against enemy counterspells, but I often find them gumming up my hand in the midgame.
First of, I had to run errants and enough tests to be certain.
Also, while it may be too late: Merry Christmas.
Back on topic.
After your suggestions and some considerations, I gave the current list multiple test runs vs various decks (live and on cockatrice):
Goal: Decide upon my personal number of Zeniths and Arbor vs Chrome Mox.
Also wanted to find out if I enjoyed Living Wish enough to warrant it.
Findings:
Results showed that I never wanted four Zeniths when not supplemented by Arbor.
While I enjoyed Arbor immensely I came to realize that it - by itself - is not nearly good enough
to warrant two slots in my list. So I dropped to 2 Zeniths for further testing.
Zeniths usually cloughed up my hand since I never really wanted early witnesses unless I was
up against heavy discard/ counter suite but was looking for enchantments/ solutions.
Also I had no real problem deploying 2+ Enchantress Effects except vs heavy denial.
So I noted it is a good (and valid) anti blue tech.
Chrome Mox vs Arbor seems to be a simple choice between "early accel vs in combo accel".
I simply like Arbor atm more. Reason behind this is the simple fact that I can
throw it under the bus... ehh.... in front of tarmo if needed vs more mana.
Still Mox is probably the right choice in an unknown meta although or because it can be countered/
would have to be hated in another way.
Next was Living Wish (and its consequences to my sideboard).
I have to admit that I didn't really like it at first - until I stumbled into several games where
I had to find out the hard way that a fifth Enchantress/ another WinCon can be really nice.
Will get back once I have more results for you, Ben.
Works well so far. Yes this are 76 cards.
//Basics (11)
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Living Wish
2 Green Sun's Zenith
// Supplemental Engine/ Enabler (12)
2 Eternal Witness
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Seal of Removal
//Mana + Accel (9)
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Dryad Arbor
//Toolbox/ Engine (7)
1 Seal of Primordium
4 Elephant Grass
2 Mystic Remora
//Control Component/ Prison Element (2)
2 Words of Wind
2 Mindbreak Trap
//Mana Base (19)
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
7 Forest
2 Island
//Sideboard
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 1 Verduran Enchantress
SB: 2 Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 Energy Field
SB: 1 Sphere of Safety
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 Flusterstorm
On a sidenote:
I am aware that Witness + Snap is old tech.
Still, did any of you test if it is valid/ can be deployed in a Tempo or Control heavy meta?
Otherwise I will have to run tests myself.
Although Flusterstorm has a much stronger application in Counterwars,
the wider application of Spell Pierce might warrant testing in this case.
Since those Flusterstorms are really good for me atm, I wouldn't change them though.
Ideas? Suggestions?
Further testing of Wheel of Sun and Moon, Energy Field, Compost, Mana Haze, Root Maze
seem all valid. I especially like Compost while Wheel of Sun and Moon -
even with the inclusion of Energy Field was underachieving.
Anyone else having additional Enchantments to add that might come in handy?
Thanks for your feedback,
Matt
Last edited by LurkingMatt; 12-31-2012 at 01:15 PM.
Playing with Living Wish definitely softens the blow of not playing with 4 Green Sun's Zenith. With only 2 of them, you've still got access to 11 Enchantresses if you want them, albeit one of which costs 5 mana through a Living Wish. But the point is, that's not much different than the 12 that I have access to or the 13 that you could potentially get in Chris Andersen's list. There are a few other benefits to playing with Green Sun's Zenith, though. The biggest one being that it gives you a maximum number of chances to play your SB bullets like Gaddock Teeg and Harmonic Sliver. There's a pretty big difference if you're facing off against TES between having 5 Gaddock Teegs and only 3. Similarly, Green Sun's Zenith is your most consistent way to break up a Counterbalance lock, since you can set the GSZ as high as you want and still just get Harmonic Sliver to kill it. It's another instance of the inefficiency of Living Wish hurting your actual sideboard. Your 75 cards is the deck that you play with, and both your sideboard and main deck have to work together seamlessly. With Living Wish, you're giving up some efficiency in games 2 and 3 for the ability to use your sideboard in game 1. If you trim Green Sun's Zenith, you're giving up efficiency in all three games.
That being said, the deck will absolutely function with less than 12 Enchantresses. in Extended, they had 8 and used them and the deck was still great. Earlier versions of Cuneo's list (before he moved on to GSZ) used 2 Verduran Enchantress and 2 Preordain, and it certainly still functioned. But Green Sun's Zenith is an extremely elegant solution to getting the maximum number of Enchantresses into the deck without having to play any of the "bad" ones, which also grants you the utility of being able to run green bullet creatures. The entire function of the deck is to get an Enchantress in play and then to go from there. I'm not sure why you would ever want to cut the thing that the deck is built to do because it's too efficient at doing it.
I do understand your emphasis on maximum number of enchantresses "but":
1. GWr plays a max of 10 effects (spatula at least) and I tried both versions and - for my own liking - concluded
after more then 20 games with 4 and 20 games with 2 GSZ that I don't want more.
2. I usually won't consider boarding any of those SB solutions in. Never. Period.
IF I would - which I don't - I agree with you on playing GSZ as a 4 of is a must.
Even then I would suggest Sigarda / Empyrial testing.
I do use the Living Wish as a simple redundancy if I might say so.
No Enchantress so far? Go get one. Need a Disenchant -> 'ere we go. Decking incoming or Beatstick needed?
Same goes for Teeg.
Vs Storm / Combo I simply board into more MBCs and Flusterstorms.
Between those two and the possibility to resolve a Teeg if all things DO look grim, I am fine so far.
That being said, I will try to get to bigger tournaments and our local weekly starting January to get
a few results and a better feel outside our Testing Group.
Regards,
Matt
I do want to say thanks first of all for having a good discussion with me! I can definitely see your side, just not sure I agree personally. For me, the only time when I have Green Sun's Zeniths in hand that don't have a purpose, I'm mid-way through the turn when I'm winning the game, so it's pretty irrelevant.
For your deck, even with only 2 GSZ, I would absolutely board in guys like Gaddock Teeg or Harmonic Sliver if you're in a position where you need it. Mostly because that way, you give yourself 3 ways to draw that particular card, as opposed to having it in the sideboard and relying on your singleton Living Wish to get you there. If you really, really, really need to get a Gaddock Teeg in play, having it main will give you three times the chances to draw it, and it won't cost 4 mana. Also, being able to rely on Green Sun's Zenith to fetch me important silver bullets lets me diversify my sideboard a lot. It means I don't have to devote 6 slots in an already tight board (especially with Living Wish) to one set of matchups, no matter how bad those matchups are. I for instance only need to have 2 Flusterstorms (1 main), 1 In the Eye of Chaos, and the Gaddock Teeg for my spells specifically against storm combo. It lets me play more flexible cards that give me more reach against more decks and lets me board in multiple powerful cards in pretty much every imaginable matchup. The biggest strike against Living Wish (and any wish, really) is that it bastardizes your sideboard, which really hampers your ability to do anything with it in games 2 and 3. As you said, you don't even board in the cards that you want in matchups that you want them in because you want to keep them there for Living Wish purposes. That seems like a far less efficient plan than having an actual sideboard, in the long run.
@Ben
Thanks for your professional tone and your well thought arguments, too.
I can't remember a time when I have been so vivid about a deck since I restarted magic and found myself looking
at Reanimator (which ofc dulled by time but is still exciting nevertheless). This has been - at least by part - your
achievement since you try to stay on topic, unbiased (*cough*) and respond in kind and kindly.
My thought process for better understanding and to get a wider discussion base:
Generally speaking - and if this would be a 4 GSZ build I would agree with you - you are right.
Still in my - as I must admit limited(~160 - 200 serious games) - experience I found it favourable
to deploy only those cards "specifically" needed for the matchup.
Since I found out that I like a hard lock (which drew me to enchantress per se
(and since IMO it's the most beautiful deck atm)) I deploy two Mindbreak Traps maindeck.
When fighting vs blue.dec I usually board into even more counters - as I tend to do vs Stack Combo/ Control.
Thus e.g. no Carpets for me (although they where incredible in testing). Instead I went more open minded and
chose Mystic Remora since it is more flexible.
Now why would I like Living Wish when I adore deploying control components instead of simply racing them?
Simple. Extirpate, Slaughter Games, Surgical Extraction ruin your day more often then not.
Since I cannot hope to counter all of them (8 counters vs sometimes 12+), I have three options that are valid:
1. Ignore them.
To reach that goal I would have to deploy various spells with similiar effects - which I cant.
Alternatively I would need a way to win the game that has no key cards - which I don't.
2. Play around them.
Would be a possibility since I can deploy some really vicious strategies.
Enter Wheel of Sun and Moon/ Rest in Peace.
Now I tried those - and since I can't tutor them up they are a bit slow for my liking since I
would like to avoid playing them as 4 of.
3. Create more redundancies.
While seemingly hard, this can be reached by things I learned while playing those various forms of
High Tide I enjoyed.
One of those is methods is to deploy either a minimal Wishboard(max 4 Wishtargets) or a compelling
Wishboard (max 4 not wish targets).
The other one - before you care to ask - is simply to try to play smart(er) then your opponent - which
not always works.
Leaving me with three options I tested all of them in about 20 matches each(let's at this point simply thank my
friends Chris and Alex for their patience).
I found the ability to simply board out a Cloud of Faeries simply too compelling to
not consider it (same goes with Witness on rare occasions (Nic Fit /w Red comes to mind)).
Now why not boarding those targets into the deck at opportune times?
Well sometimes I do. When I can take out the Wish for example since I do not or want no additional targets.
Teeg for example comes in vs SnT but not really most other decks (well maybe Miracles, I have to finalize my boarding plans to them). I already hate out most other decks so nothx. Still these decks can be real hard cases
so I need a good way to send them packing.
I understand the reluctance and have too agree that it limits your options but you are talking about the eternal case
of "the meta game". :)
Still, your own argument beats your own train of thoughts if you follow it to it's logical conclusion:
Since you want to GSZ your Silver Bullets you open yourself up to even tutoring those Bullets (or parts you boarded out) you
considered not necessary. Thus a Living Wish would be a wise (though slow) addition in those g2/ g3. ;)
If your Silver Bullets aren't creatures though.... you can't GSZ them. Thus no Wish. Thus less flexibility to your GSZ, which makes
it ... less likeable.
Also I might want to point out a simple yet often not thought of fact:
Living Wish simply lets you consider creature options which can also be GSZ.ed.
So - simply put - you "could" look for sorcery speed solutions (after all, creatures are deployed at that speed) ;)
which can and could be overlapping with enchantments.
Since I run a minimal wishboard (as opposed to a dedicated one) I have to chose the fights and utility I want to
carry.
After clearing all of this up (and ignoring personal preferences and play paradigms) let's looks on choice:
Pro Wish:
1. Diversification
2. Reacts better to rogue.dec and can handle crippling blows better
3. More flexible
4. Can tutor up a solution
Contra Wish:
1. Needs dedicated slots to work
2. Can be less efficient Post Board
3. Loses sideboard slot for dedicated matchups
4. Loses speed since more mana is needed
Dedicated Wishboard vs minimal Wishboard:
A dedicated wish board can be - and usually is - considered when redundancy or utility is needed.
Since we are running a deck based upon enchantments which also deploys 10+ creatures and lands
Living Wish is our "in color" wish.
Now let's consider a dedicated wish board for discussion's sake for an instance.
Faeries, Bog, Tabernacle, Maze, Chasm, more Enchantresses, Counter dudes.... another WinCon... looks enticing.
Until one realised - as all of us did who not only net decked - that we are deploying enchantments
to win the game, which puts us in a unique position. So no dedicated board then.
So we have to look at minimal boards.
Those would open up the possibility to either:
1. Increase the count of engines since we can place "bad alternatives" in our sideboard to get them
if we do not get the "real one".
2. Get those few cards that you would like vs decks you can count on appearing in any tournament
but are not really "that relevant" in the meta.
3. Deploying an alternative Winning Condition
Now I can only speak for myself but I chose
//Spare Engine
1 Verduran Enchantress //never picked in G1, but boarded in in various G2,G3
//Good but not overwhelming "options"
1 Gaddock Teeg //usually stays here
1 Harmonic Sliver //usually stays here unless my opponent is Affinity, MUD or Painter
//Alternative WinCon
1 Emrakul, The AEons Torn //come usually in G2,G3 for a Cloud of Faeries, still looking for an alternative that uses the degenerate amount of mana we CAN create
All of this is not really satisfying since we do not really get a conclusive answer if we should
or should not run that wish.
Which leaves us between a rock and a hard place:
Running Wish or don't.
Personally I am running it as a one of since I want to have the
options for G1 (him not giving up/ being in a precarious spot vs
various other fast combo decks).
Also it is nice to being able to board out that Cloud and having them
not all extracted.
Would I/ Did I consider dropping Wish?
You bet I have.
Simply deploying 1-2 SB solutions (and being not reliant on them being critter)
and maybe(!) one MD Emrakul looked very enticing.
Then I checked on those cards I considered my staples and the very tight maindeck
(thanks again for developing it to this point @Gainsay).
I simply lost nothing if I deployed that singular wish.
It even opened up more options for me, like:
Cutting these 2 Zeniths since I can now in G2
(assuming I board out an Argothian for extirpate protection and
board that Verduran in since I figure they will most likely drop some Critter hate):
Wish an Enchantress (1) +
Zenith an Enchantress (2) +
Draw an Enchantress (3+1) +
Draw a Presence (4)
= 11 @ avg mana of (33/ 11 =) 3
compared to
Zenith an Enchantress (4) +
Draw an Enchantress (4) +
Draw a Presence (4)
= 12 @ avg mana of (32 / 12 =) 2.666
(dropping the chance of getting an Enchantress Effect to ~83% by T3 if I am not mistaken)
and would have protection for the price of -1 Effect enabler.
Where do I (!) go from here?
At the moment I don't know.
I am waiting for my Playset of Composts to arrive to see them
in action. Extensive testing vs NicFit, Stoneblade and BUG indicate they
are perfectly fitted into my meta.
This would leave myself with the problem of considering graveyard hate.
Since I really enjoy the vision of deploying Grafdigger's Cage
although it is detrimental since I would lose GSZ, I would still have
- Wish
- Witness.
Now why would that looney bin even consider this?
Simple. I have been far too often on the receiving end of that card
since my current tournament deck of choice is Reanimator.
Also I have seen what this card DOES to Mav, NicFit and Tiago.dec.
This has been one (but not the prevailent) reason to "at least" test
less GSZ.s (the most imminent one was the very tight list).
So unless there is a faster T1 solution that is as redundant as "the Cage"
I am stuck with it in the "wrong meta".
Until then I will deploy that Wish since (assuming my build of 8 Effects, 2 GSZ, 1 Wish):
Wish (1) +
Draw an Enchantress (4) +
Draw a Presence (4) =
9
vs
Draw an Enchantress (4) +
Draw a Presence (4) =
8
As you might notice, my percentages to draw into an Enchantress Effect
drops "only" by ~6% (6.8% if I am not mistaken) but utterly devastates
those other decks by limiting their resources immensely.
Something I would not consider when running 4 GSZ.
Resumee
The use of that "one wish" is one of the reasons I am currently running
only two Zeniths.
So it seems that I divert from the most current builds by "still"
deploying a hard lock which alongside Mystic Remora
and reduced GSZ count give me some really nice options.
(Bouncing in his turn can be huge!)
Reveturning to options:
No opinion on the alternative mana engine Witness + Snap for added redundancy?
I don't actually have the space currently to deploy it myself but still it is/ would be
a good one since the will target those Words and the Clouds g2 with abandon.
Last edited by LurkingMatt; 12-31-2012 at 01:12 PM.
I think it seems to be coming down to preference and perceived metagame.
I do think that Surgical Extraction may be one of the most important sideboard cards to deal with, so I appreciate your breaking down of the ways to beat it. I have watched the deck fold to Surgical Extraction in the past, so it may be something that needs dealing with. For me, your argument to move a Cloud of Faeries to the board to wish for in games 2 and 3 was perhaps the most compelling argument for Living Wish, and one I hadn't considered. That in and of itself may be a good enough reason to run Living Wish, though I'd much prefer to take the time to find a good answer to Surgical Extraction first, so that's what I'm going to spend some time thinking about in the days leading up to GP Denver. The best I could come up with in the past has been Ground Seal, which isn't bad, though it shuts off Eternal Witness which is a pretty steep price. It also has splash hate against Reanimator and Dredge, though that's definitely pretty minor.
It's not even clear to me, though, that Surgical Extraction is the card that most people will want to bring in against us. In order for it to work, we have to cast something and have it countered and surgical-ed, or have them discard and then surgical. Then they'd probably have to do that two games in a row. It's not something that won't happen, just not sure if it's worth giving up sideboard space to combat, particularly when effectively combating it could take a lot of space. Living Wish is a low opportunity cost answer to it, though. But not having Cloud of Faeries isn't the end of the world, it just means that you bounce 3-4 permanents a turn, rather than all of them. You're still going to get to the point where they have no permanents, it will just take a little longer. Maybe it's cavilear of me to just write off Surgical Extraction, maybe not. It just seems like an awful lot would have to go right for your opponent for it to be the right move, particularly if they have better sideboard cards against you like Spell Pierce and Thoughtseize.
I also think that you underestimate the ability of the deck to react to the entire format. What I love about this deck's sideboard is that, since you reliably draw lots and lots of cards, you can put in 1 and 2 ofs to combat decks and see them virtually every game, particularly when at least some of those cards are creatures that you can GSZ for. For me, this has given me a robust sideboard that has a plan to bring in at least three cards in every conceivable matchup, which I feel is important because even in the good matchups like Maverick and Stoneblade, if the opponent's deck is getting better and yours is not, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage in games that you need to be able to win reliably. And having a diverse sideboard also means that you can pick the two or three cards that are most devastating to your opponent and avoid over-sideboarding to keep the deck functional. This is important because even the "bad" enchantments (like a Carpet of Flowers in the Maverick matchup, for instance) still function as Ancestral Recall and are in that sense often just better than a sideboard card that might not do anything that you absolutely need done.
For the Snap idea, not a bad one, but it gains the drawback of turning their mostly dead Swords to Plowshares into disruption. Back in the day, they played 4 Frantic Search and 2 Cloud of Faeries, which suggests that the optimal number of untap effects is more than 4, so Snap isn't a bad idea, just not sure if it's 100% necessary. It would certainly speed up the deck, but at the cost of stability, which might not be something you want to do when the main selling point of this deck is it's extreme stability. I am also not wild about the idea of adding in more non-enchantments, but that's a lesser concern.
Wish I had more time to expound, I think you did a great job illustrating your points and I thank you again for talking through them! You may have sold me on Living Wish, though like I said, I really, really like my SB the way it is and am not sure if I'm willing to change it just to combat Surgical Extraction, though that is absolutely a weak spot in my list that you've managed to shore up a little bit.
Agreed
First of all, the only (!) answer(s) I could find to Surgical have been current "staples" which are quiet
narrow in their application: Counters, Wheel and Rest in Peace.
While being good vs various decks and also creating nice interactions I found RIP to be undesirable and Wheel was
way to slow. I could win of other options while setting myself up via Wheel / E.Field (as example) so it was not
really a solution (still one of the few cases where I handed those Witnesses to the SB).
Ground Seal while being nice could be deployed - especially in a BUG meta and is actually a call I considered myself.
Due to itself cantripping you also gain momentum which in itself is nice.
Added in my "to be tested" list. Thanks.
-2 Witnesses, +2 Ground Seal would be the move. Wish opens up the chance to get one if needed.
Without Wish you would derive yourself of a slow but steady card draw engine.
You are thinking too small.
Let's consider your typical Tempo deck(RUG / BUG).
All they would consider is: Removing things like Bolts/ Stifles or Snares and add two to four more spells better suited
to get to us. That would/ could be Rough/Tumble, more counters(better vs us) and 2-4 Surgicals.
A good RUG player will consider it because:
Once he has seen your engine he will realise that those Seals of Removal are slowing him down while being very
good for us. Also he will consider the fact that we can't protect all of our critters/ mana accel from his attacks
which makes them targets (not to mention your own counters).
BUG is even worse:
Once they realize they can Deed us w/o repercussions while hitting us with discard you are in a world of pain.
How to prolong it and guarantee our annihilation? Enter Surgical.
That's the reason I tried (and liked it in "my" current meta) Compost.
While it is no answer, it deprives the other player of the tempo he is gaining from discard.
Now if I had the space for two wheels or Replenishes in my sideboard..... ;)
now consider typical Miracle, Mav or Stomeblade lists.
Of course they bring in more counters (if they have them) but they will also consider removing valuables from
your graveyard - especially if you had to "Emrakul 'em". ^^
Actually I agree that Living Wish isn't the strongest card in the deck.
Also I agree that they might have "better solutions" in their sideboard. But the surely realize that those Extractions
- if applied right - can slow us down to a point where they simply beat us to pulp while we try to figure out what went wrong. Trust me on this one since we have a well versed and dedicated Nic Fit player in our Playgroup who
once in a while simply beats in your face with RUG just "because he can". I learned a lot in those MUs.
I really do not think I underestimate the deck. I like(d) Enchantress already when it was young
(I myself played all the bad versions back the day (anyone remembering Attunement or
Rabbit Wombat, Pursuit of Knowledge/ Auratog?) and while being away from MtG from
Ravnica til Scars I always had an eye out for the game. This deck (in one configuration or the other) can
beat most decks in a "fair" fight. After all there isn't a hoser not designed as enchantment.... :D
That's why I like it and enjoyed the fact that this version gained a bit of prominence.
Thanks for the feedback.
As I recall we used to deploy those Snaps with the Witness. This would generate a secondary engine primarily
intended as backup engine to go infinte on mana on sorcery speed thus creating / being able to use more
mana intensive solutions (I think I recall being able to Stroke an opponent into oblivion without academy or
Tide was one of the funnier move those days... ). It would also add utility vs Hatebears though.
But since we already have that covered I considered it redundant but notable.
Well you do not really have to change your sideboard much to be honest.
If you already deploy things like Teeg, Sliver/ QPM and a secondary win con (Emrakul, Empyrial, Sigarda, that Changeling Giant Spatula deployed) you are set. You might want to consider a singular Tabernacle, Maze, Karakas or Serra's Sanctum. I tried them and didn't like them but you "could" try them.
The only noteworthy entries where Tabernacle and Maze which shut down Gobs + Dredge but I already have
solutions to them so.... ^^
Wheel while being the slowest answer to Extraction is actually the strongest since he has to Grip/ Decay it
to get to you.
Since we are already open to their hate (no Sterling Grove) I cut them after trials for two Tempo Cards:
Mystic Remora,
Compost.
I cannot stress the fun it was to play one or the other vs Tempo when they had to have a lucky opening hand.
While Remora seems to be a bit clunky (it actually is) it is also good vs almost any other deck out there since
they all play spells. And while it doesn't seem like much it it also a nice protection suite vs removal when WoW
is out.
Compost was - at first - a strange addition a friend suggested since we searched for a way around discard (or
the hand disruption it conveys). My initial solution, Leyline of Sanctity, didn't hold up to expectations.
When we found compost, both of us laughed at first but soon realized during testing that it is really good vs
a lot of decks if you also deploy a more counter heavy list.
Why? I think you already figured that one out, didn't you? I really love cabal storm nowadays when they don't
combo before T2 ^^.
Currently I am searching for two maindeck slots to "seriously" test Exploration due to the fact
that it also enables T2 Enchantress and strengthens your manabase in combo making fizzling a non issue.
Sadly I don't seem to see the space.
Might consider sleeping a few more days over it and picking it up once more after that.
On a sidenote: I didn't like how "In the Eye of Chaos" played out.
When deployed at CMC 3 isn't it too slow?
I will wait on actual feedback before considering to aquire some.
Mana Maze has been better for me since I usually can try to play around it and it also
works strongly vs other counters and combos (Elf, Cabal Storm).
Still you have to remember that a versed player can screw you by playing a Brainstorm
to stop you from countering/ deploying that one critical spell. Also I hate to not being
able to counter friggin Delvers!
Regards,
Matt
P.S. : Need to test those Ground Seals. They are way slower then Cage and don't turn off nearly as much
but they are cantripping Enchantments wrecking a soft(er) MU as nicely as Wheel. Thanks again.
Might be stupid, but you said you were looking for a new win con. But once you get the infinite loop going, can't you just drop a helix pennicle and win that way?
Not a new óne, an additional one.
Preferably not an enchantment since they will board hate.
Sorry, should have been more clear about that.
Regards,
Matt
Hi all,
I'm a Enchantress player and I found U/G Enchantress very interesting.
I'm building this list:
Lands:
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
7 Forest
Creatures:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Eternal Witness
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Cloud of Faeries
Spells:
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Cloudstone Curio
1 Back to Basics
2 Abundant Growth
2 Words of Wind
3 Mirri's Guile
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Seal of Removal
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Brain Freeze
Sideboard:
4 Seal of Primordium
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Surgical Extraction
I'm using Cloudstone Curio to make more combo and to have more winning solutions:
- Cloudstone + 2 Faeries = infinite mana (can do it T2)
- Cloudstone + 1 Faeries + 1 Arghotian = infinite spells with only 2 enchanted lands (so kill with Brain freeze)
- Cloudstone + 2 Abundant Growth = to draw for G
- Cloudstone + any enchantment = Get back an Elephant Grass to reset its upkeep
... there are many combinaisons and work perfectly with Words of wind (Cloudstone enable us to get back an enchantment for free instead of have a second drawer and pay 1)
I'm using Garruk Wildspeaker like a big faerie or another winning solution.
What do you think about it ?
First of all,
nice to see you here.
Second: Which kind of Enchantress do you also play?
This might help to understand your lines of thought.
Will come back to it with Typos function. Still don't really like it.
First of all, nice thoughts on Cloudstone Curio.
While not being really new as an engine (Elves!) It can be used for added benefit.
I assume you are talking about
Cloudstone, Faerie + at least one land enchanted with Sprawl/ Growth?
But of course you are generating infinite stormcount.
Please be so kind and enlightened me how you go infinte and win
unless you have a 8 Card hand like
Starting hand:
Tropical Island, Forest, Wild Growth, Utopia Sprawl, Cloud of Faeries, Cloud of Faeries, Cloudstone Curio.
Drawn Spell: WinCon/ Growth
T1 Forest, Sprawl(U), Go.
T2 Draw WinCon or Fail.
Trop, Tap for G, cast on Forest.
Tap Forest for GGU.
Cast Faeries#1. Entap Trop, Forest.
Tapping Trop + Forest for GGUx, Casting Cloudstone Curio
Cast Faeries#2. Trigger Curio: Bounce Faeries#1. Entap Lands
Assuming Draw is Abundant Growth:
Repeat cycle 2 times to generate 2 Mana, Drop Abundant, bounce a Sprawl, Recast Sprawl to bounce Abundant.
Probablities of both lines of play:
Statistically speaking: slim to none (less then 3%).
If you can provide insight, I really look forward to you reply.
Until then please note that the probablilities for a hand like that are so low, that a mere mentioning is...
simply not worth it (unless you mention the unlikeliness,too).
My main problem with the inclusion is the fact that space in this deck is at a premium due to
the tight list. Still, it is viable and also only a minor investment.
Also the win condition changes as you might have noticed.
While the GU Enchantress Engine is intended as a hard lock
(Draw Engine + Words of Wind) and
(Recursion + Mindbread Trap)
you are aiming for added interaction and opening yourelf up to alternative wins.
While personally I do not really see it as necessity, additional defense mechanism can/
could be created for midgame with Alchimist's Refuge if you plan to.
I really do not like Wildspeaker in this deck.
Both are not enchantments and thus have to have high impact to be included.
I can understand your reasoning for his inclusion (even more mana) you are already deluting your main line(s) of play.
He is generally "more win". If you want additional win condition(s) you might want to stay either on Curio or go for Wildspeaker.
Thoughts on your deck list/ what do I really enjoy from your ideas
Though the Curio can and probably will be "more win" most of the time, the idea could mean
accel to the combo plan.
While not really being new to me, Cloudstone Curio could not only work, it could incorporate
nicely into the interactions of this deck, speeding it up by one turn.
Due to the tight list and the current engine, I will have to give it a few goldfishs to see if I would like it included in any list
(which I don't see at this moment). Since I have been wrong more then once I will at least test the idea with a more
streamlined list.
Until then it is simply an idea for which I don't really have the space in my list since Ground Seal is a much better
slow down then Curio an accelerant.
I am looking forward to your results with Curio.
Pros:
1. Can "only" be stifled so no Needle, Revoker.
2. Can help while recurring w/o Winds.
3. Infinte mana/ storm is possible on a fast clock.
4. Opens up further possibilities.
Cons:
1. It will be hated by nearly all the same spells.
2. Abrupt Decay is a reality in this meta and also it will be hated by almost the same cards.
3. Usually it is simply "more win" unless you are willing to go by "Plan B".
4. One sided bounce not protected.
5. Delutes the game plan.
6. "Not needed"
Regards,
Matt
Thanks you for your reply.
I played G/W Enchantress then G/W/U Enchantress with Helm/Energy Field/Rest in peace combo.
Yes, of course with at least one land enchanted.
It's the best way to win T2.
I know the probability is very low (but not nil).
It's not for the win T2 that I add Cloudstone, but to improve (for me) the speed of this deck.
Sorry but I don't understand (Recursion + MindBreak Trap), what is this lock ?
Not necessary an alternative win (it's a bonus), but more interactions with all cards in the deck and a complement to Words of Wind.
I don't see the utility of Alchimist's Refuge in this deck.
Obviously Candelabra of Tawnos is better than Garruk but its price...
Wildspeaker is mainly to replace a faeries (what do you do if opponent play Surgical on faeries? Or manages them with any removal? ...).
Accel to the combo plan is the first goal of Curio and offer us an alternative if Words of wind is managed by opponent or not yet draw.
Don't need to replace Ground Seal by Curio, there is surely a way to play both.
No problem!
The Cons point 2 is identical as the point 1 and Cons points 1,2 and 4 are available for Words of Wind (so more Pros than Cons :P).
Curio will be hated by all the same spells ok but I prefer have 4 cards that can be destroyed instead of 2.
I use Curio and Garruk because I find that current list with only Faeris+Word of winds is too breakable and can be too slow depending of the game.
Curio work with all enchantments(reset Grass upkeep, keep an enchant in hand to draw, move enchanted land to gain more mana...) in addition to work with creatures (infinite manas, infinite spells, or if you want infinite hp with Essence Warden or Kitchen Finks,Eternal Witness work too...).
I think that multiply the combinaisons allow us to be less breakable.
I changed my list in testing:
MD
- 1 mirri's guile
- 1 Eternal Witness
- 1 Back to basics
- 1 Forest
- 1 Island
+ 1 Dryad Arbor
+ 3 GSZ
+ 1 Tundra
To have quickly an argothian.
SB
- 4 Seal of primordium
- 4 leyline of sanctity
- 3 Surgical Extraction
+ 4 Rest in Peace
+ 3 Mana Maze
+ 1 Vexing Shusher
+ 1 Harmonic Sliver
+ 2 Replenish
It is the only way to win T2 to be precise. And since you have to play a bad card to make it
work or have to draw a win con....
I only told you that you should include this data into your information, nothing else. ;)
Since your can bounce your Recursion (Eternal Witness) with Words you can retrieve MBC infinitely.
So he is able to drop a land, cast a spell (hard countered) and then you can recure it ad vinitum.
Without being impolite but you should really at least consider abilities before saying something like that.
You aim for interaction.
In MIDGAME (like I said) Refuge "could" be protection since you can bounce anything you own with the
help of curio when your opponent targets it. Also you could bounce his remaining / new permanents EoT.
Like I also said before: "Not really needed imho." Too cute atm.
You did read my post and realized I named my tech vs Surgical?
Also you should have at least checked the last few posts where another tech
was suggested and discussed with Ben.
Also ... naming Candelabra in this deck... To cite yourself freely:
Like I already said(or indirectly suggested), that would be a reason to deploy it:
To get more interaction and utilize your own CiP-Effects even more.
Since my own list is too tight (and I always have to fight through BUG/ RUG) I can't
test it effectively.
If you want to suggest changes to my list, I can surely PM it to you or
you go back one page.
Changes:
Remora in the sideboard, Ground Seal in it's place. + 1 Confinement as placeholder in SB.
So I will wait for your results.
First of, I only pointed out Pros and Cons and never compared Curio to Words which would be a bit unfair for Curio.
Second Pro #1 and Pro #2 are definetly different and not identical.
I do understand your opinion and mostly agree but like I said:
"Interesting but probably too redundant MD (thus G1). This could very much work but you will have to tighten your decklist."
So far I didn't find it too slow. Vs Storm you already deploy as Combo/ Control and don't tryto outrace them, Tempo is "on schedule"
and you also slow them down to dictate the tempo
.
Also Curio + Garruk don't interact well/ at all, why I suggested playing either one or the other.
I am well aware that Curio works well when unhindered.
Since you seem to have all the answers please give me a simple one:
What do you do vs Blue.dec (say.... BUG Control) which decides not to lay on it's side and die to your angry stares?
Cutting Witness is crippling the deck or - to be precise -
turns this deck into another Bant version. You clearly don't
understand some of the interactions of this deck.
Also having no counters maindeck is not really wise imho
since you are dead to storm G1. Without confinement the
weather can get very could very fast.
To sum my last reply up:
Your genereal idea sounds interesting - if you intend to try Curio, go ahead.
[BIIf[/B] you intend to pursue this thought (which I encourage)
I would suggest dropping MD Garruk though since he has no
real interaction with the remaining deck that makes him better
then a currently used card. He is a valid sideboard choice though.
The findings could be interesting and I am looking to hear from you.
Please try to remember a simple rule:
"To replace a card, the replacement has to be better then the old one!"
Regards,
Matt
Last edited by LurkingMatt; 01-07-2013 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Wrong Tags
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