Page 6 of 29 FirstFirst ... 234567891016 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 578

Thread: [Deck] U/G Enchantress

  1. #101

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingMatt View Post
    Since your can bounce your Recursion (Eternal Witness) with Words you can retrieve MBC infinitely.
    So he is able to drop a land, cast a spell (hard countered) and then you can recure it ad vinitum.
    Ok! But have you already win with Recursion+MindBreak ? It seems to be expensive ( at each turn), no?


    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingMatt View Post
    Without being impolite but you should really at least consider abilities before saying something like that.
    Sorry, I didn't see that protection. Thanks you!


    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingMatt View Post
    Also ... naming Candelabra in this deck...
    It's only to find another solution in additionnal of faeries. Faeries are the best, but I'm afraid only x4 in a combo deck is not enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingMatt View Post
    Since my own list is too tight (and I always have to fight through BUG/ RUG) I can't
    test it effectively.
    I understand, I will continue to test Curio and report here each tournament.


    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingMatt View Post
    First of, I only pointed out Pros and Cons and never compared Curio to Words which would be a bit unfair for Curio.
    Second Pro #1 and Pro #2 are definetly different and not identical.
    I'm talking about Cons#1 and Cons#2 but it's not important.

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingMatt View Post
    Also Curio + Garruk don't interact well/ at all, why I suggested playing either one or the other.
    I will meditate about Garruk.

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingMatt View Post
    Cutting Witness is crippling the deck or - to be precise -
    turns this deck into another Bant version. You clearly don't
    understand some of the interactions of this deck.
    I will try without Witness and I will see if I made a mistake .

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingMatt View Post
    Also having no counters maindeck is not really wise imho
    since you are dead to storm G1. Without confinement the
    weather can get very could very fast.
    I can play Brain Freeze during opponent storm to kill him .
    For this moment, I hope to not meet Storm or win G2 and G3 .

    Thanks you!

  2. #102

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Like I promised, my feedback to your card selections:

    Generally speaking I don't like it. Too many cute techs which also delegate this
    deck from combo/ control to combo.

    Lands:
    I assume you threw those Fetchlands in you have/ had on hand.
    Under this assumption, it looks valid except for that Serra's Sanctum.
    Since you can do squat without Enchantments and you are already on 18 lands,
    you should strongly consider that choice. I'd go -1 Sanctum, +1 Forest.

    Creatures:
    Standard except no Witnesses.
    I would suggest adding at least one/ better both of them.
    They are really good at retrieving anything you might need.
    Also they add value to your Zeniths and play nice with G1 discard.

    Spells:
    First of all, I wouldn't ever play Abundant Growth.
    If you look for a cantrip, get one that has a better function then simply
    mana fixing (which you already did with the inclusion of more duals).
    Also I don't like those additional WinCons.
    Assuming your plan works you should have Beatdown, Emrakul, Brain Freeze
    and Garruk. A bit too excessive for my taste.
    No Living Wish means you won't be able to board out any
    Faeries which can be deadly if you are hit by Discard + Extirpate.
    3 Zeniths is between Ben and mine number.

    Sideboard:
    This is usually designed towards a specific meta and not much can be said generally speaking.
    Your meta seems to be heavily geared towards monocolored decks and GY-Hate.

    Still I am missing Sphere of Safety and more anti-blue tech.
    Since you plan on not running any MD counters (thus nearly autolosing vs storm) I would
    suggest changing those Traps vs Flusterstorm or the very least Spell Pierce.

    Also no Seal of Primordium MD and SB?

    I guess those Replenish are intended as anti-discard tech? Why not an enchantment which also
    accels you? I would suggest Compost? At least this one wouldn't be hit by said discard
    if deployed in time.


    Considering all of the criticism above I would change the deck into:

    //Combo
    4 Argothian Enchantress
    4 Enchantress's Presence

    2 Cloudstone Curio
    2 Words of Wind
    4 Cloud of Faeries

    //Ramp
    2 Exploration
    4 Utopia Sprawl
    4 Wild Growth

    //Other Suite
    1 Living Wish
    3 Green Sun's Zenith
    2 Eternal Witness
    1 Mirri's Guile
    1 Sylvan Library
    4 Elephant Grass
    4 Seal of Removal

    //Lands
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Savannah
    1 Tundra
    2 Island
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Windswept Heath
    5 Forest
    1 Dryad Arbor


    Sideboard:
    4 Flusterstorm
    2 Rest in Peace
    2 Carpet of Flowers
    2 Mana Maze
    1 Vexing Shusher
    1 Harmonic Sliver
    1 Compost
    1 Seal of Primordium
    1 Brainfreeze


    You might have noticed I didn't have space to include Sphere of Safety or Emrakul, The AEons Torn.

    This is due to the fact that I wanted to be able to abuse your Curio idea to generate more CiP Trigger and more storm.
    If I would have to include them, I would cut the Brainfreeze and one RiP for one of each.

    Generally speaking I would suggest to you to streamline your deck either
    - to support Words of Wind or
    - add more redundancy to the mana generation.

    Once those changes work, you can try to solve the other "problem" you perceive.


    Regards,
    Matt

  3. #103

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Quote Originally Posted by Dihensoeur View Post
    Ok! But have you already win with Recursion+MindBreak ? It seems to be expensive ( at each turn), no?
    As a matter of fact it is quiet easy to pay that amount of mana around T5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dihensoeur View Post
    Sorry, I didn't see that protection. Thanks you!
    No harm done. Like I said it is mostly cute like Words of Wind and Mystic Remora.
    Bouncing on their turn can be nice but is mostly cute (still I like it).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dihensoeur View Post
    It's only to find another solution in additional of faeries. Faeries are the best, but I'm afraid only x4 in a combo deck is not enough.
    If you want additional options you might also want to consider Snap. Though I can attest that those Cloud of Faeries
    are really good and enough in G1 they are sort of exposed in G2. Snap can also bounce your Eternal Witness and -
    considering you have two lands producing GGU or more for infinite mana/ infinite storm.
    Still I really like your idea of Cloudstone Curio since the interaction is really nice and actually better/ cheaper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dihensoeur View Post
    I understand, I will continue to test Curio and report here each tournament.
    Thanks alot. I am really looking forward to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dihensoeur View Post
    I'm talking about Cons#1 and Cons#2 but it's not important.
    Oops. Sorry here. Yes those points are really overlapping.
    Abrupt Decay has - for a reason I don't really understand gotten
    my full attention so I always consider it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dihensoeur View Post
    I will meditate about Garruk.


    I will try without Witness and I will see if I made a mistake .


    I can play Brain Freeze during opponent storm to kill him .
    For this moment, I hope to not meet Storm or win G2 and G3 .

    Thanks you!
    You can even try to naturally draw into that brain freeze via Compost or Mystic Remora.

    I myself really enjoyed the face of my last ANT-opponent when he had to find out the hard ways that Enchantress
    doesn't simply roll over to him without a fight. I lost 1-2 due to a miscalculation and wrong fetch. It opened up a
    window of opportunity he took and actually managed to go off through Compost, Mystic Remora
    and Mana Maze
    . *sigh*

    Shit happens.

    I thank you for your nice ideas and am looking forward to hearing your suggestions what to cut for Cloudstone Curio.

    For your reference my current list:

    //Basics (11)
    4 Argothian Enchantress
    4 Enchantress's Presence
    1 Living Wish
    2 Green Sun's Zenith

    // Supplemental Engine/ Enabler (12)
    2 Eternal Witness
    4 Cloud of Faeries
    4 Seal of Removal


    //Mana + Accel (9)
    4 Utopia Sprawl
    4 Wild Growth
    1 Dryad Arbor

    //Toolbox/ Engine (7)
    1 Seal of Primordium
    4 Elephant Grass
    2 Ground Seal

    //Control Component/ Prison Element (2)
    2 Words of Wind
    2 Mindbreak Trap

    //Mana Base (19)
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Misty Rainforest
    1 Savannah
    2 Tropical Island
    7 Forest
    2 Island


    //Sideboard
    1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    1 Harmonic Sliver

    2 Mystic Remora
    2 Compost
    2 Mana Maze
    1 Sphere of Safety

    2 Mindbreak Trap
    4 Flusterstorm

    As you can see the deck is geared towards a combo/ BUG meta which I currently encounter
    on a weekly basis. Most current change(s):
    - Moving Mystic Remora to sideboard since Ground Seal shuts down Deathrite Shaman.
    - Removing Exploration since it was simply cute.

    Maindeck Enchants and Dryad Arbor vs Chrome Mox depend on expected meta at this moment.

    Regards,
    Matt
    Last edited by LurkingMatt; 01-07-2013 at 06:01 PM.

  4. #104

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Short tournament report of our local weekly legacy.

    To summarize: Went 2-2 but never had the feeling victory was out of reach.
    Never met BUG but had run ins with BUr, Reanimator and Gate.

    The long version:
    MtG Salvation Blog Link

    Regards,
    Matt

  5. #105

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Back from the GP. Definitely didn't go the way wanted it to, almost entirely based on my own play mistakes. I messed up the first round which got me a draw when I was absolutely going to win (drew 4 cards with only 3 Enchantresses, giving me a game loss in game 2), and that put me in the draw bracket all tournament. Beat Miracle Blade (though ended in a draw, as mentioned), Junk and Bant, then lost to Merfolk (almost won game 1, then mulled to oblivion game 2), Elves (can't win, at least not with my current list) and Esperblade when I was frustrated and not playing well. My mulligan decisions need some work, along with a few (though not many that I caught) play decisions. I will say this; be careful when you're winning with this deck, as it's pretty easy to accidentally draw too many cards. I had to be on my guard the rest of the tournament, and it wasn't a mistake I wanted to make again. Here's what I played, for reference:

    Lands:
    6 Forest
    1 Dryad Arbor
    2 Island
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Windswept Heath
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Savannah

    Creatures:
    4 Argothian Enchantress
    1 Verduran Enchantress
    4 Cloud of Faeries
    2 Eternal Witness

    Spells:
    1 Flusterstorm
    4 Wild Growth
    4 Utopia Sprawl
    3 Carpet of Flowers
    4 Elephant Grass
    4 Seal of Removal
    1 Seal of Primordium
    2 Words of Wind
    3 Enchantress's Presence
    4 Green Sun's Zenith

    SB:
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Deep Analysis
    1 Chill
    1 In the Eye of Chaos
    1 Back to Basics
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Compost
    1 Krosan Grip
    1 Harmonic Sliver
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    1 Dueling Grounds
    1 Kitchen Finks


    Just some quick notes. I went with the Enchantress split that I did so that a Surgical Extraction on Argothian Enchantress or an Engineered Plague on Humans wouldn't completely destroy my ability to function. Other than that, the main is pretty standard. For the sideboard, I tried a few different things out. Back to Basics is absolutely insane in this metagame, but I'm not really convinced that it's what we want to be doing, since we don't really care how much mana they have. Though in theory, B2B + Elephant Grass is a lock against something like RUG or BUG or Jund or anyone who doesn't have any basics. Dueling Grounds was okay, though I think there has to be a better fifth Elephant Grass out there...maybe just Propaganda or Ghostly Prison? I jammed some test games against ANT (my friend got 42nd playing ANT at the tournament) but clearly didn't see it, though In the Eye of Chaos just completely destroyed his ability to function in a timely manner, so I think it's good. The absolute best card in my sideboard all day long was Deep Analysis, and it wasn't even close. It's not flashy by any means, but it completely turned around games where I got hammered with discard early or got my first enchantress or two countered. In general, the decks that are doing those things to you are not bad matchups, but you need some way to recover from a lot of discard or timely counterspells, as those are the only way that those kinds of decks are going to beat you.

    What I do want to test is more Compost in the board, along with Chrome Mox over some number of lands. I'd be very interested to see how often a turn 1 Enchantress happens. It felt like the deck was just a slight bit too slow sometimes, and getting down an enchantress before they can interact with you is probably just really important. Turn 1 Thoughtseize slows us down by a lot, so being able to get the Enchantress out there extra early is probably important. Along those lines, I'd also like to go back and test 2 Exploration and 1 land in place of the Carpet of Flowers, since the format isn't nearly as blue as it was even a month ago. It still crushed against blue decks, but even those decks are more geared towards Counterspell than Spell Pierce or Daze. As for Verduran Enchantress over the 4th Enchantress's Presence, I don't think it helped or hurt. It makes us a little more vulnerable to Wrath effects, a little less vulnerable to Disenchants, slightly less efficient just in the sense that Presence cantrips with other Enchantress effects on the board, but also more resilient to stuff that's bad for us. I didn't see a Surgical Extraction all day, so it's possible that I was correct when I assumed that most people won't bring them in, though I didn't face off against RUG which usually has a set. I don't really see a good reason to not just run it that way, though maybe there's merit to just trying to fit both cards into the deck.

    One thing that was cool was I beat Counter Top game 1 by just tricking my opponent into putting Top on top, then casting Words of Wind, then making him slowly pick up all of his lands. Just crushed him. I guess what I mean to say is, I'm not really worried about Counterbalance + Top anymore...I also decided that this deck needs to be playing against good decks, so winning the first round is tech. It has a rough time against a lot, but I think it crushes BUG, and should have plenty of game against Jund, so it should still be pretty well positioned in the metagame if we can solve the Elves issue.

  6. #106

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Thanks you for your feedback. My deck is still changing and you help me to improve it!

    If you want additional options you might also want to consider Snap. Though I can attest that those Cloud of Faeries
    are really good and enough in G1 they are sort of exposed in G2. Snap can also bounce your Eternal Witness and -
    considering you have two lands producing GGU or more for infinite mana/ infinite storm.
    Still I really like your idea of Cloudstone Curio since the interaction is really nice and actually better/ cheaper.
    Good idea Snap + Eternal Witness to get infinite mana/storm!
    In your deck, you have Ground Seal (I think I will add it too) even it's not compatible with Eternal Witness (Have you met problems in your tests?).

    I have some doubts about Mana maze.It allow to play at least one spell by turn, so Elves can play and attack or get Harmonic Sliver with GSZ and storm like ANT can alternate artifact/blue spell/black spell (and red spell).
    Is It really effective?

    What do you think about Defense of the Heart in sideboard for Aggro deck?

  7. #107

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Quote Originally Posted by benthetenor View Post
    Just some quick notes. I went with the Enchantress split that I did so that a Surgical Extraction on Argothian Enchantress or an Engineered Plague on Humans wouldn't completely destroy my ability to function. Other than that, the main is pretty standard. For the sideboard, I tried a few different things out. Back to Basics is absolutely insane in this metagame, but I'm not really convinced that it's what we want to be doing, since we don't really care how much mana they have. Though in theory, B2B + Elephant Grass is a lock against something like RUG or BUG or Jund or anyone who doesn't have any basics. Dueling Grounds was okay, though I think there has to be a better fifth Elephant Grass out there...maybe just Propaganda or Ghostly Prison? I jammed some test games against ANT (my friend got 42nd playing ANT at the tournament) but clearly didn't see it, though In the Eye of Chaos just completely destroyed his ability to function in a timely manner, so I think it's good. The absolute best card in my sideboard all day long was Deep Analysis, and it wasn't even close. It's not flashy by any means, but it completely turned around games where I got hammered with discard early or got my first enchantress or two countered. In general, the decks that are doing those things to you are not bad matchups, but you need some way to recover from a lot of discard or timely counterspells, as those are the only way that those kinds of decks are going to beat you.

    What I do want to test is more Compost in the board, along with Chrome Mox over some number of lands. I'd be very interested to see how often a turn 1 Enchantress happens. It felt like the deck was just a slight bit too slow sometimes, and getting down an enchantress before they can interact with you is probably just really important. Turn 1 Thoughtseize slows us down by a lot, so being able to get the Enchantress out there extra early is probably important. Along those lines, I'd also like to go back and test 2 Exploration and 1 land in place of the Carpet of Flowers, since the format isn't nearly as blue as it was even a month ago. It still crushed against blue decks, but even those decks are more geared towards Counterspell than Spell Pierce or Daze. As for Verduran Enchantress over the 4th Enchantress's Presence, I don't think it helped or hurt. It makes us a little more vulnerable to Wrath effects, a little less vulnerable to Disenchants, slightly less efficient just in the sense that Presence cantrips with other Enchantress effects on the board, but also more resilient to stuff that's bad for us. I didn't see a Surgical Extraction all day, so it's possible that I was correct when I assumed that most people won't bring them in, though I didn't face off against RUG which usually has a set. I don't really see a good reason to not just run it that way, though maybe there's merit to just trying to fit both cards into the deck.

    One thing that was cool was I beat Counter Top game 1 by just tricking my opponent into putting Top on top, then casting Words of Wind, then making him slowly pick up all of his lands. Just crushed him. I guess what I mean to say is, I'm not really worried about Counterbalance + Top anymore...I also decided that this deck needs to be playing against good decks, so winning the first round is tech. It has a rough time against a lot, but I think it crushes BUG, and should have plenty of game against Jund, so it should still be pretty well positioned in the metagame if we can solve the Elves issue.
    Nice thoughts, similar to my own. I already dropped the Carpet's for 3-4 Exploration's too. They are way more consistent since you just rely on the amount of your own lands and not the amount of islands you opp has. Still not convinced about them, because it's nearly dead without any extra land's. Considering Chrome Mox i really have no opinion yet.

    What i didn't like on many lists i saw on the net were the amount of cards in the deck, which don't do anything relevant to the deck's game plan. In the beginning i joined the train with 2 Witness', 2 Words of Wind, 1 Living Wish but really got angry sometimes because you don't want any of these cards in you 7 opener. I understand the logic to play these card's, but would really try to reduce the count to a minimum.

    BTW I noticed you just kill with Cloud of Faeries and Witnesse's once you bounced everything right ? Or do i miss something ... ? :-) Did that work out for you or was it annoying/costed games to not be able to end the match right there ?

    Another question i'm asking myself is why everyone wants to play that single Seal of Primordium. What is that needed against in the first game ? BUG ? RUG ? Combo ? I think in these most important matchup it's a dead card. Against most Aggro we should just win without it or there's something wrong with the deck...

    A card i'm also not sure about is that single Arbor. While it may accelerate sometimes it's also a neet Wasteland target and hell slow if played as a regular land. I don't want to lose to Wasteland with approx. 10 Basics in the deck.... :-/

    I also don't like that 2 Island's and 2 Trop's combination in most decklists i saw. I guess that much blue islands are not necessary with 7 Fetche's and 4 Utopia Sprawl imo. A 1/1 split should be fine.
    The only card that really has to come out "fast" is possibly Seal of Removal (dependent on the matchup). Cloud of Faeries and Words get relevant first when going off.

    Well just my cents of thoughts...

  8. #108

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Eigo View Post
    Nice thoughts, similar to my own. I already dropped the Carpet's for 3-4 Exploration's too. They are way more consistent since you just rely on the amount of your own lands and not the amount of islands you opp has. Still not convinced about them, because it's nearly dead without any extra land's. Considering Chrome Mox i really have no opinion yet.
    I tried Exploration a while ago and didn't find it to be better or worse than Carpet of Flowers. They're not really even similar cards though, as Carpet of Flowers is almost entirely about beating Spell Pierce and Daze, whereas Exploration is just about accelerating out every turn. It can definitely be explosive, though if you're going to be playing Exploration, I think you want to play at least 21 lands, which is another downside to that card.

    What i didn't like on many lists i saw on the net were the amount of cards in the deck, which don't do anything relevant to the deck's game plan. In the beginning i joined the train with 2 Witness', 2 Words of Wind, 1 Living Wish but really got angry sometimes because you don't want any of these cards in you 7 opener. I understand the logic to play these card's, but would really try to reduce the count to a minimum.
    The more you play, the more you'll see the utility of having those cards in the opening hand. Eternal Witness is the least useful, though even he is really important for overpowering counterspells. He can even be used to ensure that you hit your land drop, while at the same time clogging up the ground against aggro decks.

    BTW I noticed you just kill with Cloud of Faeries and Witnesse's once you bounced everything right ? Or do i miss something ... ? :-) Did that work out for you or was it annoying/costed games to not be able to end the match right there ?
    Nope. I don't really see any situations where simply explaining to your opponent what it is that you're going to do isn't sufficient for them to concede. Particularly when you legit are going to win and there's nothing they can do about it. So for them, the choice becomes, make you kill them in time, or concede and have some sort of a shot at games 2 and 3. But failing that, the cases where you need an "actual" win condition are extremely rare, as the deck can also beat for 9 a turn when you get all of your guys down. That's only one more turn than casting out an Emrakul, so if you get to turns, the chances of you needing to kill them in 2 turns instead of 3 are going to be pretty rare.

    Another question i'm asking myself is why everyone wants to play that single Seal of Primordium. What is that needed against in the first game ? BUG ? RUG ? Combo ? I think in these most important matchup it's a dead card. Against most Aggro we should just win without it or there's something wrong with the deck...

    A card i'm also not sure about is that single Arbor. While it may accelerate sometimes it's also a neet Wasteland target and hell slow if played as a regular land. I don't want to lose to Wasteland with approx. 10 Basics in the deck.... :-/

    I also don't like that 2 Island's and 2 Trop's combination in most decklists i saw. I guess that much blue islands are not necessary with 7 Fetche's and 4 Utopia Sprawl imo. A 1/1 split should be fine.
    The only card that really has to come out "fast" is possibly Seal of Removal (dependent on the matchup). Cloud of Faeries and Words get relevant first when going off.

    Well just my cents of thoughts...
    I talked about Seal of Primordium earlier, too. The only card you absolutely have to beat before you can go off is Pithing Needle, which is extremely rare game one. That being said, Seal of Primordium is a cheap enchantment that gives you lots of utility for a single deck spot. There's not really anything I'd rather play in that spot, which is why it has stuck around. It gives you edges against MUD decks and Counterbalance decks and pretty much every deck that might have something you want to kill. What would you replace it with? Anything that's not an enchantment would be a mistake.

    About the lands, Dryad Arbor is pretty bad when you draw it. I'm testing Chrome Mox now and Dryad Arbor isn't there anymore. I miss the ability to GSZ for accelerants, but so far it's rarely come up because you don't usually need it. The marginal benefit of adding in 4 more accelerants is probably not worth the cost of drawing Dryad Arbor. Now, if I were playing with Exploration instead, I'd be more inclined to run Dryad Arbor, since his downside is largely negated by just playing an extra land. As far as the Island comments, have you actually played with the deck, or are you just spitballing? I haven't had any issues at all with getting the mana that I want, with fetching out enough basics, with anything at all. I think the manabase is perfect, and I'm not sure what it is that you're trying to accomplish by changing it, particularly if it's going to make you lose cards that you need to fuel the engine, like Seal of Removal.

  9. #109

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Quote Originally Posted by Dihensoeur View Post
    Thanks you for your feedback. My deck is still changing and you help me to improve it!


    Good idea Snap + Eternal Witness to get infinite mana/storm!
    In your deck, you have Ground Seal (I think I will add it too) even it's not compatible with Eternal Witness (Have you met problems in your tests?).
    Actually none so far.

    Since Witness usually comes down in my combo turn, I already bounced those Seals if necessary.
    Still I had one game of awkwardness where I would have liked to get something. Still played out as intended just w/o recursion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dihensoeur View Post
    I have some doubts about Mana maze.It allow to play at least one spell by turn,
    so Elves can play and attack or get Harmonic Sliver with GSZ and storm like ANT can alternate
    artifact/blue spell/black spell (and red spell).
    Is It really effective?

    What do you think about Defense of the Heart in sideboard for Aggro deck?
    I played vs ANT and Mana Maze really screwed him over to be honest.
    The fact that he had to alternate between spells and/ or drop Artifacts alongside the mana calculation
    really messed him up.

    It is actually really good vs Elves! and the Gate + intended as "Anti-Counter" suite to be honest.
    Still I should be able to cut it for Curios in G2.

    Nice idea. Will try.

    Defense of the Heart... well if(!) you want to deploy it, we could simply cut things like
    Living Wish for Emrakul.
    We could board it vs Mav, Stoneblade, Gobs, BUG, RUG, Elves (and yes I am aware of the fact that BUG
    and RUG usually do not deploy 3+ attackers). Elves would get one more turn to go of which can be... bad.

    Just remembered a thing: Someone already used that tech with Forbidden Orchard to net
    those critter numbers to the opponent. A solid secondary WinCon this way.

    Sounds good.

    Definetly worth a try.

    Regards,
    Matt
    Last edited by LurkingMatt; 01-10-2013 at 07:54 AM. Reason: Afterthought regarding Defense

  10. #110
    Member
    Alexeezay's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2010
    Location

    Germany
    Posts

    238

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Mana Maze sucks because they can Burning Wish/tutor for a bounce spell and still combo through easily.
    As you accelerate with Sprawl/Growth/Arbor the 1st turn anyway, you can run 3-drop hate such as In the The Eye of Chaos or Rule of Law. (next to Mindbreak Trap, Flusterstorm, Gaddock Teeg etc)

  11. #111

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Quote Originally Posted by benthetenor View Post
    Back from the GP. Definitely didn't go the way wanted it to, almost entirely based on my own play mistakes. I messed up the first round which got me a draw when I was absolutely going to win (drew 4 cards with only 3 Enchantresses, giving me a game loss in game 2), and that put me in the draw bracket all tournament. Beat Miracle Blade (though ended in a draw, as mentioned), Junk and Bant, then lost to Merfolk (almost won game 1, then mulled to oblivion game 2), Elves (can't win, at least not with my current list) and Esperblade when I was frustrated and not playing well. My mulligan decisions need some work, along with a few (though not many that I caught) play decisions.
    Welcome back, Ben.

    I was already wondering where you had been. ;)

    More/ more detailed info would be appreciated.

    Especially boarding plans for avoiding stupid mistakes like
    my boarding out Ground Seal vs Gate could
    be a nice addition.

    I slaughtered most of the engine in that game. ^^

    Also a "real Primer" is imho slowly needed.

    If you want help, holler.

    Quote Originally Posted by benthetenor View Post
    I will say this; be careful when you're winning with this deck, as it's pretty easy to accidentally draw too many cards. I had to be on my guard the rest of the tournament, and it wasn't a mistake I wanted to make again. Here's what I played, for reference:

    Lands:
    6 Forest
    1 Dryad Arbor
    2 Island
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Windswept Heath
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Savannah

    Creatures:
    4 Argothian Enchantress
    1 Verduran Enchantress
    4 Cloud of Faeries
    2 Eternal Witness

    Spells:
    1 Flusterstorm
    4 Wild Growth
    4 Utopia Sprawl
    3 Carpet of Flowers
    4 Elephant Grass
    4 Seal of Removal
    1 Seal of Primordium
    2 Words of Wind
    3 Enchantress's Presence
    4 Green Sun's Zenith

    SB:
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Deep Analysis
    1 Chill
    1 In the Eye of Chaos
    1 Back to Basics
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Compost
    1 Krosan Grip
    1 Harmonic Sliver
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    1 Dueling Grounds
    1 Kitchen Finks


    Just some quick notes. I went with the Enchantress split that I did so that a Surgical Extraction on Argothian Enchantress or an Engineered Plague on Humans wouldn't completely destroy my ability to function. Other than that, the main is pretty standard.
    A few questions:

    1. Was decking really that much of a problem?
    I had those problems only two times so far.
    You mentioned a mistake/ self deck...
    If it isn't too hurtful, could you exaggerate for our
    learning experience?
    2. Did you have any problems with that Verduran?
    If you encountered no relevant hate, Your split looks nice.
    Still I think a 4/4/0 split would be better.
    Several older articles mentioned them being happy not to worry
    about Verduran Enchantress in the old extended decks.
    And yes I saw your reply a bit down and still keep ask.
    3. How was your one counter faring in those MUs?
    4. Assuming your 75, that means we would have three open md slots?
    Nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by benthetenor View Post
    For the sideboard, I tried a few different things out. Back to Basics is absolutely insane in this metagame,
    but I'm not really convinced that it's what we want to be doing, since we don't really care how much mana they have.

    Though in theory, B2B + Elephant Grass is a lock against something like RUG or BUG or Jund or anyone who doesn't have any basics.
    Dueling Grounds was okay, though I think there has to be a better fifth Elephant Grass out there...maybe just Propaganda or Ghostly Prison?
    Concerning B2B: Tried and dropped it like a hot potatoe.
    While your suggestion(s) about Ground Seal was a really nice addition since it safed my but vs Extracting effects,
    I concur with your assumption about B2B. It slowed me down like ... well... since this isn't my native language, let'S just say I
    was as sluggish as 747 trying to evade a Stinger Missile.

    Sphere of Safety - it safed my but and made boarding -4 Elephant Grass vs ANT/ T.E.S. a real option.
    Otherwise your best bet would be Propaganda or Energy Field I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by benthetenor View Post
    I jammed some test games against ANT (my friend got 42nd playing ANT at the tournament) but clearly didn't see it,
    though In the Eye of Chaos just completely destroyed his ability to function in a timely manner, so I think it's good.
    The absolute best card in my sideboard all day long was Deep Analysis, and it wasn't even close.
    It's not flashy by any means, but it completely turned around games where I got hammered with discard early or got my first enchantress or two countered.
    In general, the decks that are doing those things to you are not bad matchups, but you need some way to recover from a lot of discard or timely counterspells,
    as those are the only way that those kinds of decks are going to beat you.
    Did you consider Mystic Remora?

    If yes, I will check those Deep Analysiss *check, jupp still got the playset*.

    Quote Originally Posted by benthetenor View Post
    What I do want to test is more Compost in the board, along with Chrome Mox over some number of lands. I'd be very interested to see how often a turn 1 Enchantress happens. It felt like the deck was just a slight bit too slow sometimes, and getting down an enchantress before they can interact with you is probably just really important. Turn 1 Thoughtseize slows us down by a lot, so being able to get the Enchantress out there extra early is probably important. Along those lines, I'd also like to go back and test 2 Exploration and 1 land in place of the Carpet of Flowers, since the format isn't nearly as blue as it was even a month ago. It still crushed against blue decks, but even those decks are more geared towards Counterspell than Spell Pierce or Daze. As for Verduran Enchantress over the 4th Enchantress's Presence, I don't think it helped or hurt. It makes us a little more vulnerable to Wrath effects, a little less vulnerable to Disenchants, slightly less efficient just in the sense that Presence cantrips with other Enchantress effects on the board, but also more resilient to stuff that's bad for us. I didn't see a Surgical Extraction all day, so it's possible that I was correct when I assumed that most people won't bring them in, though I didn't face off against RUG which usually has a set. I don't really see a good reason to not just run it that way, though maybe there's merit to just trying to fit both cards into the deck.
    I tried a Growth, Sprawl/ Exploration split of 3/3/2 while testing but since I had to burrow those Explorations I went back to 4/4/0.
    It added a bit more accel but no possibility of T1 Enchantress drop (still had several games where I went of 1 turn faster due to it).
    I am running 19 lands currently for reference.
    Also it opens up nice interaction while comboing out to drop more lands.

    Quote Originally Posted by benthetenor View Post
    One thing that was cool was I beat Counter Top game 1 by just tricking my opponent into putting Top on top, then casting Words of Wind, then making him slowly pick up all of his lands. Just crushed him. I guess what I mean to say is, I'm not really worried about Counterbalance + Top anymore...I also decided that this deck needs to be playing against good decks, so winning the first round is tech. It has a rough time against a lot, but I think it crushes BUG, and should have plenty of game against Jund, so it should still be pretty well positioned in the metagame if we can solve the Elves issue.
    GZ to your Jedi Mind Trick *g*

    Elves is a deck I have extensive experience with.
    It simply falter to Mana Maze when you slow them down.

    Newer lists run those DRS MD, so they might have decays in SB and except those no removal vs us.
    Also those list like their SB Cabal Therapy a lot so Compost is even
    better as a sideboard tech if you find something to cut for it.

    Vs them it is essential to have those additional counters to evade at least Glimpse comboing
    in my experience.

  12. #112

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexeezay View Post
    Mana Maze sucks because they can Burning Wish/tutor for a bounce spell and still combo through easily.
    As you accelerate with Sprawl/Growth/Arbor the 1st turn anyway, you can run 3-drop hate such as In the The Eye of Chaos or Rule of Law. (next to Mindbreak Trap, Flusterstorm, Gaddock Teeg etc)
    You are aware of their current tech?

    Eye of Nowhere sees almost no play.

    Most rely completely on their Abrupt Decays, while
    some use max 2 Chain of Vapor.

    But I agree that it is the weakest tech vs Cabal Storm.
    Still it was better then nothing. ^^

    Regards,
    Matt
    Last edited by LurkingMatt; 01-10-2013 at 12:19 AM.

  13. #113

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    It wasn't a problem with decking, I got a game-loss from the judges for drawing too many cards. It was the first and only time that I've done that in more than two months of playing the deck, and I can't believe I did it, but it just reinforced to me how important it is to pay attention to your triggers. It was a mistake that cost me a game and put me in the draw bracket since we only had 8 minutes left in the round.

    Verduran was fine, didn't notice any issues. I think the ability to GSZ for an Enchantress after they've already Surgical-ed an Argothian or have an Engineered Plague down is pretty important, but the truth is that both of those issues are pretty few and far between. It would probably actually just be better to run more Seal of Primordium and/or Ground Seal to solve those individual cards than run the split, since I did get my team wrathed on more than one occasion. I still usually won those games, so maybe it's not an issue, but I don't think I saw Verduran Enchantress more than once or twice in the 6 rounds that I played. As I said, I didn't see any of the cards that I was worried about, though I did see a Zealous Persecution and a Golgari Charm, which is super awesome against us. Verduran Enchantress dodges those guy too, though not as well as Enchantress's Presence.

    I didn't have any issues with the counterspells, as usual. The combo deck I faced was immune to Flusterstorm, so it's probably more correct to just be playing Mindbreak Trap, though that means that In the Eye of Chaos sucks again, and it was a real beating when I played against ANT. I didn't find that Back to Basics slowed me down at all, since it's pretty standard for me to just fetch basics unless there's a really good reason to have a Tropical Island. I'd almost say that the Tropical Islands are unnecessary, though it is nice against decks that can't hit you with Wasteland to not have to worry about the mana. But with RUG going away, pretty much everyone is cheating on their basics, which makes Back to Basics extremely strong and doesn't hurt us at all. My friend was playing some Blood Moon in his sb for Omni-show, and he got 6-7 free wins just by dropping that card down. It's a good time to be hating on non-basic lands.

    As for the last slot, I'm going to test out Island Sanctuary. I tried Sphere of Safety but found it way too slow to get into play, so I tried Dueling Grounds, but it really was pretty lackluster. But Island Sanctuary beats everything except for Merfolk and Show and Tell, and isn't fragile like Energy Field. It doesn't do anything the turn it comes down, which is kind of rough, though. Propaganda is nice, and Ghostly Prison can't be red-blasted. But with Chrome Moxes (which are so far speeding things up by as much as a turn, which is awesome), it's possible that we don't need whatever card is going in that slot.

    I was going to run 2 Mystic Remora in the board over Deep Analysis, but in the end I felt like it was a lot of hoops to jump through, as opposed to Deep Analysis which is great against a lot of things. Just the fact that Mystic Remora is a bad topdeck, whereas Deep Analysis is fantastic, pushed it over the top. It's also more or less immune to discard, which is exactly what I want in that slot. I'm debating playing a third one, it was that good.

  14. #114

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Quote Originally Posted by benthetenor View Post
    It wasn't a problem with decking, I got a game-loss from the judges for drawing too many cards. It was the first and only time that I've done that in more than two months of playing the deck, and I can't believe I did it, but it just reinforced to me how important it is to pay attention to your triggers. It was a mistake that cost me a game and put me in the draw bracket since we only had 8 minutes left in the round.
    Dude that sux.

    Why you would receive a loss (since those are open triggers) is understandable on REL2 but still you opponent should have gotten a warning at least too.
    Still thanks for the info.

    Reminds me of my warning after deck check because my divider was a card i HAD played and which was really bad on my first competitive tournament. -.-
    At least it could be reconstructed in my case what, why and how it had happened and I lucked out.

    Quote Originally Posted by benthetenor View Post
    Verduran was fine, didn't notice any issues. I think the ability to GSZ for an Enchantress after they've already Surgical-ed an Argothian or have an Engineered Plague down is pretty important, but the truth is that both of those issues are pretty few and far between. It would probably actually just be better to run more Seal of Primordium and/or Ground Seal to solve those individual cards than run the split, since I did get my team wrathed on more than one occasion. I still usually won those games, so maybe it's not an issue, but I don't think I saw Verduran Enchantress more than once or twice in the 6 rounds that I played. As I said, I didn't see any of the cards that I was worried about, though I did see a Zealous Persecution and a Golgari Charm, which is super awesome against us. Verduran Enchantress dodges those guy too, though not as well as Enchantress's Presence.

    I didn't have any issues with the counterspells, as usual. The combo deck I faced was immune to Flusterstorm, so it's probably more correct to just be playing Mindbreak Trap, though that means that In the Eye of Chaos sucks again, and it was a real beating when I played against ANT. I didn't find that Back to Basics slowed me down at all, since it's pretty standard for me to just fetch basics unless there's a really good reason to have a Tropical Island. I'd almost say that the Tropical Islands are unnecessary, though it is nice against decks that can't hit you with Wasteland to not have to worry about the mana. But with RUG going away, pretty much everyone is cheating on their basics, which makes Back to Basics extremely strong and doesn't hurt us at all. My friend was playing some Blood Moon in his sb for Omni-show, and he got 6-7 free wins just by dropping that card down. It's a good time to be hating on non-basic lands.
    OK, first of all, thanks a lot for those detailed information.
    Really nice synopsis of your experience.

    Re Flusterstorm: I have to admit that I faced similiar problems while testing but found them a stronger anti cabal storm/ Tide card so I encorporated them in my SB and they are good vs Storm and blue.dec so far.

    Re Lands: After jumping through the hoop I have found myself fetching no duals unless I have to. Meaning I grab them simply of the shelf if I get my Verdants/Windswepts and need blue, so as a one or two of they are good.
    Now that might have happened more often in those test games then not so I will keep more detailed record and try them once more I guess. Since I need more space I will probably cut my wishtargets for them thus removing
    Living Wish.

    Quote Originally Posted by benthetenor View Post
    As for the last slot, I'm going to test out Island Sanctuary. I tried Sphere of Safety but found it way too slow to get into play, so I tried Dueling Grounds, but it really was pretty lackluster. But Island Sanctuary beats everything except for Merfolk and Show and Tell, and isn't fragile like Energy Field. It doesn't do anything the turn it comes down, which is kind of rough, though. Propaganda is nice, and Ghostly Prison can't be red-blasted. But with Chrome Moxes (which are so far speeding things up by as much as a turn, which is awesome), it's possible that we don't need whatever card is going in that slot.
    Of course Propaganda can be blown up by REB or Pyro but - if you do not want to deploy Moat or Sphere it is your best bet
    while avoiding card disadvantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by benthetenor View Post
    I was going to run 2 Mystic Remora in the board over Deep Analysis, but in the end I felt like it was a lot of hoops to jump through, as opposed to Deep Analysis which is great against a lot of things. Just the fact that Mystic Remora is a bad topdeck, whereas Deep Analysis is fantastic, pushed it over the top. It's also more or less immune to discard, which is exactly what I want in that slot. I'm debating playing a third one, it was that good.
    Well Remora nets me at least one card via Enchantress whereas Analysis is a mana sink (at least that was my thought).
    Also you usually get that one card vs blue.dec that might win you the counterwar if they resolve something of relevance.

    It is incredible vs any type of card drawing combo (Elves w/o NO + Cabal Storm included) because if they try
    to combo with it lying around it nets tons of cards (in combination with Compost I drew ~12 cards just from
    them hopping through the mana maze hoops).

    Still you suggest Analysis is en par with that power level due to the total of D4/ being AT LEAST a D2 when discarded?
    Will test it for myself. Thanks for the suggestion.

    Regarding GY hate I found your suggestion of Ground Seal to be interesting and good.
    While not really denying me my grave (Seal of Primordium MD + WoW Bounce) it protected it
    rather well and also cantripped. So far the best GY I deployed except Cage.

    I think I will move it to the SB though since it was a bit slow while testing vs Reanimator
    (but did enough vs Dredge in 3 games to be valid) unless expecting lots of BUG.
    Though nice it might not be the solution we should look into. On the other hand the only
    other solutions I tested so far have been Tormod's Crypt (duh),
    Relic (some speed problems, maybe a prob since we are mostly tap out),
    RiP (sucked),
    Wheel (similiar probs),
    Cage (and while it was bad to have no zenith it cost the other deck the game(s) + it's good vs Elves).
    Still it screws us - especially if we diversify into Verduran or deploy SB Targets like Teeg or Harmonic.

    On the other hand Seal protects us from those Extractions, slows down BUG...

    Serious suggestions welcome. Please no more "Cage sux, Seals good" arguments.

    Also how much hate do we run when we are expecting GY manipulation?
    2@ CMC2 was mostly too slow vs reanimator in testing (he reanimated T2 all those times) - probability to have one or more in your opening hand ~23%
    3 seemed fine. Still I always saw at least 1 hate til round 3 so it was ok.ish... - probability to have one or more in your opening hand ~31%
    4 seems excessive unless it can pull double duties. - probability to have one or more in your opening hand ~40%

    Note that I added the draw probabilities just to show you how I figured out which number of GY I like.

    Seems all we currently have to do is stabilize MD, generate one to two sideboards (or various
    interactive options) and we can move to discussion the weather and new techs.

    Nice!

    Regards,
    Matt
    Last edited by LurkingMatt; 01-10-2013 at 07:45 AM. Reason: added draw percentages

  15. #115

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Thanks four your respons benthetenor. Didn't play the deck in any tournament yet, since i'm just actually obtain the cards and getting familiar with the deck. I'm also no magic online app fan. Hopefully will get first impressions in a tournament in short.
    Quote Originally Posted by benthetenor View Post
    I talked about Seal of Primordium earlier, too. The only card you absolutely have to beat before you can go off is Pithing Needle, which is extremely rare game one. That being said, Seal of Primordium is a cheap enchantment that gives you lots of utility for a single deck spot. There's not really anything I'd rather play in that spot, which is why it has stuck around. It gives you edges against MUD decks and Counterbalance decks and pretty much every deck that might have something you want to kill. What would you replace it with? Anything that's not an enchantment would be a mistake.
    If Needle is rare in your meta why not ignore it ? As for a replacement you could consider Detention Sphere or Oblivion Ring, since it should rarely be a dead card. But maybe it's too clunky don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by benthetenor View Post
    As far as the Island comments, have you actually played with the deck, or are you just spitballing? I haven't had any issues at all with getting the mana that I want, with fetching out enough basics, with anything at all. I think the manabase is perfect, and I'm not sure what it is that you're trying to accomplish by changing it, particularly if it's going to make you lose cards that you need to fuel the engine, like Seal of Removal.
    I'm not joking. :-) Imagine a starting hand that exists of Island, Island, Tropical, Utopia Sprawl, GSZ, Seal or Removal, Wild Gowth. You would take the risk of running into Wasteland if enchanting the Trop on first turn to enable GSZ on 2nd. Without the Tropical you would be in additional pressure to topdeck a green source from the top really fast (i guess it's a mulli anyway..). When you play more Basic Forest's you minimize chances to let this happen. If you can afford to drop some Island's/Trop's without walking in trouble to have no blue sources when needed i think we should think about if this could work. Don't you ...? That's all i wanted to say really.

  16. #116

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Eigo View Post
    Thanks four your respons benthetenor. Didn't play the deck in any tournament yet, since i'm just actually obtain the cards and getting familiar with the deck. I'm also no magic online app fan. Hopefully will get first impressions in a tournament in short.

    If Needle is rare in your meta why not ignore it ? As for a replacement you could consider Detention Sphere or Oblivion Ring, since it should rarely be a dead card. But maybe it's too clunky don't know.



    I'm not joking. :-) Imagine a starting hand that exists of Island, Island, Tropical, Utopia Sprawl, GSZ, Seal or Removal, Wild Gowth. You would take the risk of running into Wasteland if enchanting the Trop on first turn to enable GSZ on 2nd. Without the Tropical you would be in additional pressure to topdeck a green source from the top really fast (i guess it's a mulli anyway..). When you play more Basic Forest's you minimize chances to let this happen. If you can afford to drop some Island's/Trop's without walking in trouble to have no blue sources when needed i think we should think about if this could work. Don't you ...? That's all i wanted to say really.
    Well at least we now have an example what you are talking about.

    As a matter of fact that hand would be a mulligan vs an unknown opponent G1 or RUG/ BUG.
    Reason: You would almost surely run into a counter when trying to fetch the engine.

    Assuming you kept that hand, you are playing either lose (not wise with this deck) or are in
    a good mood. Once more let's say you are in good mood (you just won G1 and time is limited for example).

    You know your opponent is not RUG/BUG but deploys Wasteland (Mav, Gate, Gob).
    T1: Your "normal" play would be Island, Seal, go.
    T2: Play 1(safe, no pressure): Draw whatever (GSZ?, Seal of Primordium?), Drop 2nd Island.
    Play 2(REAL pressure, not perceived): Draw whatever, Drop Trop, Enchant Trop., go
    T3: Play 1: Draw, Drop Trop, GSZ for Argothian Bitchy Bitch from Card draw Heaven, go.
    Play 2: Draw, (hopefully a 1 mana enchant), Drop Island, GSZ for Argothian Bitchy Bitch from Card draw Heaven, cast an enchantment for refill.

    Note that the probability of drawing a counter at this time equals to 29% (two Counters) or 17%(one Counter).

    All of these moves already show that the abovementioned hand is - as you already said - very lose.

    Why would we keep that hand?

    Also you should realise that we don't really care for many nonbasics since we talk about using Back to Basics ffs!

    @Ben: Di (sorry for the Abbreviation) had something in that GWU thread he mentioned you might want to consider:
    Equipoise was a thing he brought up that might be what you are looking for instead of that Island Sanctuary.

    Good vs Control and Special Critters I guess.

    Regards,
    Matt

  17. #117

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingMatt View Post
    As a matter of fact that hand would be a mulligan vs an unknown opponent G1 or RUG/ BUG.
    Reason: You would almost surely run into a counter when trying to fetch the engine.
    Understandable argument. Did you often lose in history to not having a 2nd enchantress effect preboard in hand ?

    Maybe the example hand wasn't perfect regarding other influences like opponent having cs or whatever.

    So do a Hand out of it with, which you would normally keep in any situation and exchange all forests of that hand with either tropo or island and maybe you get why my suggestion was to think about the land distribution.

    But if you see it as perfect and never had any problems regarding the mana base as it is (i took that base from the opening post as a reference which has 2 Tropical Island, 1 Savannah, 1 Dryad Arbor, 7 Forest, 2 Island, 7 Fetch) it's really not worth the discussion i suppose...Sorry. :-)

  18. #118

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Nothing's not worth a discussion (and certainly, nothing is perfect), but I just haven't ever had any issues with the mana base that didn't turn out to actually be mulligan issues. If in your example the Utopia Sprawl was a Wild Growth, then that hand becomes more playable. Or if one of the Islands was any fetchland, it's probably a keeper. The odds of drawing exactly your two Islands and not much else are not very good. Could it happen? Sure, but then again, anything could happen. There's a possibility that the deck only needs a single Island, but until I have any issues with it, I'm not going to worry too much. It's usually pretty early (turn 2, turn 3 at the latest) that I fetch out an Island anyway, so I haven't really felt like there needs to be fewer Islands in the deck.

    As for only one Enchantress in the opening hand, it's not where you want to be, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's an auto-mulligan. If you're in the dark, it could very well be fine, and the odds of drawing a 2 Enchantress hand in a mulligan are probably not better than winning with the one that you have. Depending on what kind of Enchantress it is, I'd play around as many soft counters as you can afford to, and try to use the other cards in your hand to draw out counters, if you can. But if it's a deck with lots of pressure, it's not likely that they're going to have a ton of hard counters, so you should be able to bait with something like an Elephant Grass or even just use the Seal of Removal to Time Walk them and give yourself more chances to draw more cards. With only one Enchantress in your hand, you're likely to see a second one within a few turns. Probably the biggest draw of this deck is that it generates so much mana so rapidly that you can easily play a game completely negating Daze and Spell Pierce without really slowing yourself down too much. Carpet of Flowers only increases that ability.

    Re: Equipose:

    The only issues I have with Island Sanctuary are that it is 1) useless the turn it is cast and 2) white. If those are all things that can be played around, then it's pretty much a perfect card for me. Equipose doesn't solve any of those issues, unfortunately, and it costs more. Not that that's a big strike, but I don't see either of those cards being better than, say, a Ghostly Prison, in a practical setting.

  19. #119

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Some funny ideas:
    - Spiritual Focus (Liliana's effect)
    - Leyline of Lifeforce
    - Leyline of Vitality
    - Counterbalance in MD/SB

  20. #120

    Re: U/G Enchantress

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Eigo View Post
    Understandable argument. Did you often lose in history to not having a 2nd enchantress effect preboard in hand ?

    Maybe the example hand wasn't perfect regarding other influences like opponent having cs or whatever.

    So do a Hand out of it with, which you would normally keep in any situation and exchange all forests of that hand with either tropo or island and maybe you get why my suggestion was to think about the land distribution.

    But if you see it as perfect and never had any problems regarding the mana base as it is (i took that base from the opening post as a reference which has 2 Tropical Island, 1 Savannah, 1 Dryad Arbor, 7 Forest, 2 Island, 7 Fetch) it's really not worth the discussion i suppose...Sorry. :-)
    Sorry for the wall of text beforehand.


    Regarding second Enchantress preboard
    Having a second enchantress effects really smoothes things over, especially if you have it fast -
    but it is not really necessary from my experience.
    I lost only a few matches (mostly to BW Blade, BUG Tempo) due to them getting my enchantress and
    not getting into the game anymore.

    This is one of the main arguments Ben and myself got into about two pages back:
    Since Ben actually advocates a 4 Zenith build (which can - as a matter of fact help avoiding decking yourself if
    you anticipate the notion) while I run a 2 Zenith build thus reducing the "enchantress effects" by two we have
    about 5-7% differences of having the second possible preboard effect.
    Yes, it is good to be draw as many cards possible as fast as possible but since we "only" use it for those
    Argothians, Dryad Arbor and Witnesses I really do like the options those two slots offer vs increased draw probabilities.

    Since we are now considering incorporating at least one Chrome Mox these Zeniths are
    still very good but I like to consider those alternative(s).

    I (and most probably Ben already did this) will check the Zenith numbers once there is a consensus of what
    the number of moxes will be.

    Regarding Mana base
    There is nothing like a "perfect manabase" unless you are in a void imho.
    If you have the "perfect base" you always will be wastelanded.
    If you have a "differenciated base" you will get mana screwed.

    So all of us should strive for well rounded - thus finding the right mix.

    Actually I find the current mana base to be well rounded but
    1. You could - if you intend to completely run G/U - switch the mana base to basics except one dual.
    I have tried this "basics only base" in one of my play testings and only found minimal problems due to
    wrong fetches atm. Still it had it' awkward moments.
    By deploying at least one dual (shock or nonshock) you enable the one pick you surely will need.
    Of course you would run two if you intend of deploying W, R ....
    you are getting the picture probably faster then I did. ;-)
    2. Gainsay already tried it (and Ben and others suggested it): Running Chrome Mox
    This card - if played intelligently(resolves? -> response -> imprint) will almost always only provide one
    color. Sure we get card disadvantage but since we run Enchantress we can cope.
    All of this makes "wasteland arguments" less of an issue.
    3. This deck alongside it's sisters is one of those decks where you simply can establish a "budget" core and
    start to enhance and substitute less effective cards to make it stronger over time.
    This is due to the fact that
    a) the draw engine is really strong (although slow (as in "slow combo"))
    b) your main goal pre combo is to slow your opponent or disrupt his game plan.
    c) this deck is highly synergetic.

    Now why do I mention all of this?

    Well actually to make my point perfectly clear (which your argument only has marginally touched)
    and to formulate it thus straightening out my own thoughts. Thanks for the opportunity btw. :-P

    Yes, this deck will most likely be a niche deck for most of it's life (unless a future expansion give us a bomb)
    but it is - as a matter of fact a dark knight.

    It (and it's sisters) can beat any deck in the field and has done so in the past very efficiently.

    Since this deck "normally" deploys no lock we are more interactive then other enchantress decks around.

    All of this leaves the player with a high powered deck that is capable of
    1. interactive games, thus increasing the game experience for both players
    2. good and bad matchups but no bye games to other decks
    3. beating unfair decks as easily as fair decks.
    4. advancing into new meta and adapting to new strategies with each new expansion

    I have only found three decks so far that can claim these qualities:
    Reanimator,
    Enchantress(GW(x), GU(x))
    and Elves (don't care if we talk Elfball, Foodchain or Beatdown).

    All other decks have/ deploy strategies that might be nice to play, be highly entertaining for
    one of the two parties involved but lack either the adaptability or the interactivity.

    Please note that this is only a personal opinion and I really like to crush my opponent
    with decks like TES or Tide if I decide to deploy them but their lack of interactivity can really
    spoil the fun. The same goes to enchantress.lock but that's why I decided to support Ben and
    others to make the most of this deck while also playing GW(x) once in a while.

    Regards,
    Matt

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)