Well actually you could run Confinement in the SB if you really like what Sanctuary does since it does it better.Originally Posted by benthetenor
Equipoise has the benefit of handling various hate alongside those lines thus I found it a valid suggestion.
Regards,
Matt
Funny they are at least :-)
Please check Compost ;-)
Funny/ Nice idea for GW(x) though.
Would have to be a four of to be efficient and most of us
already run counter (at least in SB)
You really enjoy your infinty games, hm? ^^
Counterbalance is not really good since we draw too many cards too fast.
...now why the hell didn't I think of that?
I find the sideboard to be constantly shifting, but my current plan (which likely will change tomorrow...) is to ignore Burn since it's a pretty uncommon matchup in the format and focus on everything else:
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Compost
2 Deep Analysis
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Kitchen Finks
...with 1 Flusterstorm (or more probably Mindbreak Trap) and 2 Carpet of Flowers in the main deck. I find what this lets me do is lay down a Compost against something like ANT or Dredge or Reanimator and then use the card advantage to draw into Mindbreak Traps and/or Tormod's Crypt. Also, having 2 Compost and 2 Deep Analysis helps a lot in matchups that try to beat us with discard which is, I think, the most prevalent strategy right now. It's possible that a Solitary Confinement could come in for the 4th Mindbreak Trap, since they are both effective in a lot of combo matchups, though what I like most about this is that it is equally effective against almost all combo decks (not Show and Tell, but we can't have everything), which means that random decks like Belcher and Elves can actually be combatted through the sideboard, whereas Flusterstorm was lackluster to downright useless against some of those decks. The main benefit I've found to Mindbreak Trap is that it's more in line with how the deck plays out. You want to be able to use all of your mana every turn, so keeping back an Island for Flusterstorm slows you down almost as much as Flusterstorming one of their spells slows them down, making it not a great plan. But with Mindbreak Trap, you don't need to leave mana open, and with Composts in play, you don't even need to have it in hand against decks that are likely to make you discard them anyway.
A Solitary Confinement would help a lot against Burn and pretty much every creature deck. I guess it's just a question of whether or not it's correct to rely on a splash color to help in those matchups (as of right now, the only white cards are Gaddock Teeg and Harmonic Sliver, which can be fetched with Green Sun's Zenith), which is clearly not as great as keeping it in-color. But the on-color answers have been somewhat lacking, so maybe it's correct? It's also not great to drop a Solitary Confinement unless you're able to support it, which would mean that you are already winning, but I haven't played with it very much so maybe it's not a big deal. But this is as opposed to something like Island Sanctuary, where you could just not skip your draw step if you need to further your gameplan and can take some damage. Doesn't do anything against a Lightning Bolt, though.
Can you explain me please? I don't understand why draw cards can be not good for Counterbalance.
Since you yourself stated the effectiveness of Witness I would suggest Trap
I am not quiet sure - had Elves the other day. G1, he comboes T4 and would have had enough mana for lethal the turn after, I combo.
G2 he ran into Sphere with 9 enchants out. Let's just say he didn't like it.
Belcher is more of a problem and the reason why I dropped Flusterstorm atm and try Spell Pierce since I can hit
Belcher with it. After all I can stall his fraggin tokens til kingdom comes.
Couldn't find an in color solution so far.
If I come across one, I'll let you know.
Regards,
Matt
Easy.
Counterbalance relies on the fact that you can "at least" predict what CMC is on top of your cards.
If you draw too many cards too quickly and do not deploy Top, you cannot say what CMC is on top
of your lib. Which is bad, since we want to counter threats at specific casting cost ranges.
Even assuming you have that spell on top of your library, you will have dug 2-6 cards deeper the next
turn.
And no, Top wouldn't be an option for this deck while Mirri's Guile and Sylvan Library
can and have been considered. Still they don't solve that problem of knowing which CMC is on top after D... 5?
Regards,
Matt
Thanks you!
Why don't play Replenish ? I think it's better than compost (compost will often arrive too late), can be useful VS counterspell/discard/Abrupt Decay and allow us to have 3,4 Ground Seal MD without private us to get back enchantments. Moreover, if we return ground seal/abundant growth, we draw!
Add one MD and one SB is a good idea no?
Another suggestion:
Some Pithing Needle in SB to fight planeswalker/Rishadan/Top/... ?
Because we do not really need Replenish.Thanks you
Why don't play Replenish ? I think it's better than compost (compost will often arrive too late), can be useful VS counterspell/discard/Abrupt Decay and allow us to have 3,4 Ground Seal MD without private us to get back enchantments. Moreover, if we return ground seal/abundant growth, we draw!
Add one MD and one SB is a good idea no?
Another suggestion:
Some Pithing Needle in SB to fight planeswalker/Rishadan/Top/... ?
This thread is meant for GU Enchantress thus including GU(x).
Assuming this we would only splash white if necessary.
Also Witness is a secondary win con, can be bounced via Words, thus can be played again
getting MBC enabling a hard lock.
Pithing Needle is an option though I don't know if I would consider it atm.
Haven't had many run ins with DnT or Gobs so far that tried to out control me.
They mostly tried to Thalia me.
Re Compost I suggest you try it.
Especially if you run Flusterstorm in the side and at least 2 MBCs you will quickly realize
how hard storm has to work to beat it. Also it is good vs BUG (Let them destroy it.
One less combo target destroyed.) and generally discard.
Regards,
Matt
Ok, it was just a suggestion in order to play Ground Seal MD (because it's not compatible with Eternal Witness and grave hate MD can be useful).
Pithing Needle is not only useful vs DnT or Gobs but vs all decks (planeswalkers,Top,Deathrite Shaman,Qasali,Belcher,Fetch....).
I don't found Thalia very dangerous for GU Enchantress and you?
Ok, I will test it.
Another suggestion:
Shardless Agent: Most cards cost 1 or 2 so can be cast by Cascade:
-Avoid to draw lands and so accelerate the engine
-Cascade allow us to draw by Enchantress
-Shardless Agent can be bounced and recast
...
What do you think about it?
Once more, the reason why I am currently switching two Ground Seals back from SB to MD and reverse
is DRS. It simply turns him off. Completely. Also it cantrips.
Does it require planning? Yes it does.
Is it good? Current meta? I would think so.
Does it turn your hardlock of? Yes it does thus requiring planning.
Why do I switch it around then? Well I don't really know. It "feels" slow vs Reanimator for example.
Playing on Europe, I have to anticipate more combo on one hand, GY decks on the other one.
So I am deciding what I like more or if I simply revert to MD Carpets. ;)
Thalia is a real "pain in the ass" if I can't spare a Seal for her, otherwise she only slows us down
a turn, max. 2 I'd say.
I never said Needle is bad, I just wanted to point out it's weakness to the fact that it is no
enchantment and also cannot be zenithed up.
Agent - like Curio is a card you will have to try out.
What changes would you suggest to play it?
How many?
Also: is it really better then casting two spells with a max CMC (maindeck) of
2 (thus ranging in between 2-4 mana) and cutting something for it?
You already mentioned his bouncyness but would I have more reach with a bounced
enchantment like the badly suited (imho) Abundant Growth and Mana Bloom ?
Now if enchantress would be BU we wouldn't be discussing Strix but we are
GU after all so we will have to consider the effieciently of the Agent since he "only" beats
as a 2/2 . ;)
Regards,
Matt
I suggest only one MD. I will report Agent/Curio tests.
It's different. Casting 2 spells means you have them in hand or draw the second when you cast the first (with luck to not draw land).
With agent, you avoid to draw land and so you dig more efficiently.
I think Mana Bloom is too slow to be useful (and not avoid to draw land).
Agent allow to dig and to cast another spell for free even if agent is countered. And I think it's easier to bounce agent than an Abundant Growth, but I will test it.
For information :Top UG Enchantress : 3/12 players
- Adding Fertile Ground : it can be good (only x1 or x2 max but not x4!)
- Adding Snap : Need test and free slots.
Well if you consider Snaps I will agree that bouncing a creature is easier.
Also your points for Shardless is valid. Seems you only need to find a space for him.
Good luck on your tests!
Thanks! A very unusual lists that can try to kill by stroking.
Can't really say how fast this makes this deck before testrunning it a few
times in goldfish mode. Will get back if this accels in avg by 1-2 turns.
Otherwise I do not know what to think of that lists.
Looks a bit weird to me.
No open protection suites, no recursion....
I'll run it and see where that takes me.
Regards,
Matt
Hey, I just found this list on tc decks: http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...6&iddeck=72493
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Snap
1 Stroke of Genius
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Exploration
1 Propaganda
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Sterling Grove
2 Words of Wind
3 Abundant Growth
3 Equilibrium
3 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Fertile Ground
1 Island
1 Plains
7 Forest
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
Seems pretty strange but might be worth exploring? I think it really needs Eternal Witness somewhere with Equilibrium in there & 4th utopia sprawl. Also the manabase is weird.
Last edited by Alexeezay; 01-20-2013 at 01:01 PM.
I've been holding off on commenting on that list without testing it, but I've also decided I just don't have much of an interest in testing that list. There are a lot of things about it that just seem incorrect. There's no reason whatsoever to have any number of Fertile Ground before the 4th Utopia Sprawl. Enlightened Tutor is cute but almost certainly win-more, since if your deck is functioning as it should, you will draw your entire deck anyway, and if it's not, then taking the card disadvantage of Enlightened Tutor is only going to put you further behind. With 0 Elephant Grass and 0 Seal of Removal, you are completely reliant on a single Solitary Confinement to slow down aggro decks, which means you have to either be faster than them (doesn't seem like the case here) or else just lose to some of their more broken draws. I really don't understand that one, as Elephant Grass is probably the best card in the deck. Snap is like Seal of Removal, but without the possibility of drawing you any cards, and without Eternal Witness, wasting a Snap on an opponent's creature is probably just wrong. The mana is also...ambitious. Having a basic plains is, I suppose, a necessity, but with only one land to fetch it out, you're never going to see it if you need it. There's a lot of mana fixing, but overall it feels like someone just took a standard list and switched out cards that are good for different cards, just to be different. More than that, it seems like this list moved away from the engine combo deck that it was to a more 2-3 card combo in an Enchantress shell. That seems just strictly worse unless the new version is faster, which it doesn't look to be. Even if it is, the reason why you're playing Enchantress combo is stability and inevitability and power in the face of discard and/or counterspells. If you want speed, play ANT or Belcher or even Elves; they all do speed much better.
I ran that list finally about ten times to get a feel for it.
Likes: Stroke MD is really interesting, Abundant Growth an intersting color fixer and cantrip.
Hates: almost anything is an accelerant. While this makes the any card useful and those Clouds ferocious I agree with Ben.
Still the Tutors make it possible to defend yourself via Confinement...
Regards,
Matt
Hi everybody "new" to the deck...I got some key cards for building the UG enchantress and i facing my first steps with it. As it's expectable i have a few quetions:
-I ran GWr version. UG seems to be a different deck with a similar base, does it provides any advantage or these version are not comparable?
-Which is the criteria for siding in FoW and Jace TMS? I think fow is for combo.....
-What do you use Verduran Enchantress for?
-Why some prefer Carpet of flower over mirri's guile? I think guile is awesome.
Ok, sorry for asking so much if somebody could answer me i'd be grateful!
GC.
For anyone asking questions, I really does pay to read the thread to see if they've been asked before. All but the first question has been more or less addressed already. It's only 7 pages at this point, that's not really all that much to read.
As for your questions:
- The way that this deck locks out the opponent is fundamentally different from the way that a GW, prison-based Enchantress list works. Some of it is preference, but this list is much more dedicated to making and stealing tempo from the opponent, since once the game is inevitably locked up by turn 5 or 6, there is no reason to have a Solitary Confinement or a Sterling Grove in play. Cards like Elephant Grass and Seal of Removal go from soft lock to hard lock once the opponent has 0 permanents. But it is in general a bit faster and significantly less difficult to get the lock going in this deck, and once you have it, it is nearly impossible to lose it. I would count those as advantages, though the other, more traditional Enchantress players that I've talked to tend to rankle when I say that, but it's been more or less true in my experience. If that explanation makes you uncomfortable, then just call it "preference."
- I think Force of Will is really, really bad in this deck. It's a great card and the deck is more than capable of making up the lost card advantage, but even when you side in a full 4 Force of Will and counting those, there are only 12 blue cards in the entire deck. Don't play Force of Will. Though, obviously, it is there for combo. JMS gives you something to board in against control decks, since there are a lot of cards that aren't great, and you need another few threats to help you battle through counterspells. I personally use and like Deep Analysis in that slot, since it's much more difficult to counter and gets you your card advantage up front.
- So that Living Wish isn't completely one-dimensional, and to swap out for an Argothian Enchantress games 2 and 3 if you expect Surgical Extraction.
- Those are two completely different cards. There was a lengthy discussion about Mirri's Guile's place in this deck, but the short version is, when you're drawing 3 cards with every Enchantment that you play, card selection is pretty much completely useless. And if you've never played with Carpet of Flowers against someone trying to get you with Daze and Spell Pierce, it's pretty awesome, too.
Thx you so much for answering!
Reading your post the main corcern that comes to my mind is the 1 off cards in the deck. One of them is living wish. If you use it for searching an enchantress or a "solution" cards you simply lost the emmy win cond which i consider better than beating your opo with witness and faes. Another one is seal of primordium MD. We have no other way to hit it than the enchantress engine. This makes me feel unconfortable sine we dont own any tutor. Ok, maybe my mind still keeps the GW version.
GC
If you play the deck, you will find all of your concerns to be unnecessary. I don't even play with a Living Wish. There is absolutely no reason why you should need to ever cast Emrakul, since when you win, your opponent is left with a maximum of 2 permanents (barring moxes and stuff like that) for the rest of the game, which will not be in play on your turn. The entire draw of the deck is the fact that you don't have to do something inefficient like running an Emrakul, though some people do play one in the sideboard so that they don't get draws instead of losses in extra turns. I assure you though, it's pretty much unnecessary. Emrakul is certainly the coolest, but it doesn't matter if you win your game with 2/1s and 1/1s or a 15/15. You still get just as many points in a tournament for winning one way as for the other. The benefit is, your 2/1s and 1/1s actually advance your game-plan, rather than just sitting around doing nothing until you've already won. But the entire point is, if you didn't run an Enchantress and other toolbox creatures in the sideboard, then Living Wish would be a wasted slot, too. Literally the only reason why it's acceptable is because it can become an Enchantress.
As for the Seal of Primordium as a one-of, there just aren't very many things that you need to kill that won't just get bounced in the process of winning the game. It's in there basically because there was a free slot and it does have some utility, as well as being an out if someone has a Pithing Needle in play. But you're not going to need it until you've basically already won the game, as you will be able to have your deck in your hand by the time that Pithing Needle (or I suppose something like Nevermore) is relevant. And I can guarantee that you will never need a tutor in your deck. You draw every card you could ever want by turn 4 or 5. Why would you waste time on a tutor?
just bought my german Argothians, looks like i'm building the deck, finally.
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