Geist requires UW, which is essentially the same, since neither of those colors match the one you need to play a Deathrite Shaman. In all honesty, I would LOVE to be paired against this deck. No basics, no grave hate aside from Deathrite Shaman, no Wastelands of its own. Huge vulnerabilities: Moon effects, recurring Wastelands, removal on Deathrite Shaman, Dredge. Veteran Explorer decks get one-sided ramp. Price of Progress hits for the max every time.Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Deathrite Shaman is a great card, but this deck is using him as a crutch.
4 Geist in a deck with black without Shizo is a grave mistake
This is the decklist: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=51658
The decklist is:
Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Dryad Arbor
Planeswalkers (5)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells (18)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
2 Thoughtseize
Lands (22)
2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
Sideboard
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Counterspell
1 Envelop
3 Spell Pierce
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Armageddon
1 Thoughtseize
The link is right, but the list is wrong:
Creatures (10)
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (23)
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
Spells (24)
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Intuition
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate
Sideboard
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Engineered Plague
1 Counterspell
3 Extirpate
4 Force of Will
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
I played that list yesterday to a 5-1 finish for 1st/56 ppl going 5-0 and being secured first because of the opponent score.
I had no mana issues at all, the deck was amazingly fun to play, though i feel theres a lot of room for improvement.
The mana was pretty solid all day.
R1 2-1 against BUG Delver
R2 2-1 against Elves (kinda messed up game 2 with a wrong timed Decay)
R3 2-1 against UB Tezzeret (got nut drawn game 2 on the draw with T2 Jace into T3 Tezz into T5 Karn)
R4 2-1 against Esper Blade (again nutdrant in game 2, i Seize him T1 on the draw an see Fetch Fetch Sofaf SFM SFM Skull Jitte)
R5 2-0 against UW MiracleHelm (T2 Clique into T3 Jace is pretty good, being able to Vindicate basics as well)
R5 1-2 against Reanimator (mull to 5 game 1 with him seizing t1 and entomb/reanimate T2, G3 got lost because he pondered, shuffled and drew reanimate of the top for Griselbrand)
Thank you for posting those lists.
In response to a few earlier comments:
1) The deck is developing. This thread was created to consolidate discussions that were occurring across a number of separate threads. Deathrite Shaman fits very naturally into some decks. For example, in decks like Junk, Jund, BUG, Elves, and Zombardment, Deathrite fits into these decks' existing shells and strategies and the decision of whether or not to include Deathrite becomes one of which slots to fill and which slots to cut. These decks should be discussed in their original threads, just as new additions to any deck are discussed in that thread as new cards are spoiled or older cards become good as the metagame shifts (i.e. Overmaster in Omni-Tell).
This thread is to discuss decks that have evolved or spawned from Deathrite. The major reason I opened this thread was to remove conversations between Mark Sun, wcm8, Neffy, other posters, and myself from the BUG Tempo thread. Once a deck starts supporting Swords to Plowshares and Lingering Souls, it is no longer BUG Tempo, hence, the creation of a new thread.
2) The deck seems to be taking on a number of arch-types, which I will discuss below. As has been previously suggested, it may become appropriate to rename the thread or create sub-threads (similar to the BUG Tempo / BUG Midrange/Control split.) If this becomes appropriate, I will work with the mods to rename the threads as necessary.
Let's look at recent performances from SCG: Las Angeles!
4-Color 'Control' by Nicholas Spagnolo
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=51628
This list looks like Bant, Junk, and Maverick all got together to have a baby.
I commend Nick on his list and his finish- this is truly a unique creation worthy of it's own thread. This list has discard, removal, countermagic, planeswalkers, utility creatures, and closers. It's the best of all worlds and I'm sure it was a blast to play!
I think Nick put this list together and realized that with 4 Deathrites and 4 Hierarchs, he could really test the limits with his mana producing abilities. He runs UU and WW with quite a few B and G spells. He's also able to fit 3 Wastelands and a Karakas into the mix.
For purposes of discussion, let's call this list '4-Color Deathrite Midrange' and let's refer to the list I posted on the opening post as '4-Color Deathrite Tempo.' As noted above, if this deck takes off, I will create separate threads.
4-Color Esper Stoneblade as run by Joe Bernal and Lewis Laskin
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=51658
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=51638
It's interesting how SCG chose to give these lists different names, although they are similar in build, excepting a few slot decisions. Both are a ported version of Esper Stoneblade, Joe's list adding green for Sylvan Library, Abrupt Decay, Life from the Loam, Maelstrom Pulse (out of the board) and Deathrite's 3rd ability.
Lewis's list also adds green for Sylvan Library, Abrupt Decay, Life from the Loam, and Deathrite's 3rd ability.
These decks run 23 lands, including Wasteland and Karakas or Academy Ruins. I can understand if people want to discuss these lists in the Esper Stoneblade thread, as they really are a modified Esper Stoneblade shell (although I welcome conversation here.)
Other 3-and-4 Color Lists Running Deathrite
It's interesting that SCG also chose to call this list 'Esper Stoneblade' (just like Lewis's list), although it only runs green for Deathrite's 3rd ability and Choke out of the board and actually doesn't run blue at all- it's basically a Deadguy Ale list with Choke in the sideboard: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=51710
This is a Team Italia list that also chose to run green for Deathrite's 3rd ability and Choke out of the 'board: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=51650
These lists should be discussed in the Deadguy Ale and Team Italia lists, respectively.
4-Color Deathrite Tempo
I modified the 4-Color Deathrite Shaman Tempo deck as follows:
Lands (19)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
Spells (26)
1 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Vapor Snag
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard (15)
2 Force of Will
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls
I still like Vapor Snag.
Stoneforge Mystic opens up new lines of play and helps shore-up the deck's weaker match-ups (aggro/tempo/control/creature-based-mid-range decks like Bant.)
Force of Will has been very underwhelming and I'm considering cutting it all together.
Lingering Souls has been amazing, and I'm considering moving it to the main, but that might make the deck a little too focused on stopping the aggro and tempo match-ups and vulnerable to combo.
Sword of Feast and Famine is not great, and I'm considering freeing up that sideboard slot, possibly with a 3rd Force of Will for the combo match-ups.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
Death rite shaman isn't the defining creature in any of these decks. It could have been birds of paradise and these decks could still work even though they would lose some utility. I really dislike whe this thread is going. Is it an scd thread for death rite shaman or what is the purpose of the thread?
The purpose of the thread is to discuss decks that did not exist before the printing of Deathrite Shaman, and to a lesser extent, Abrupt Decay.
The deck that won the Berlin tournament (UWGB Tempo) did not exist before the printing of Deathrite Shaman.
Nick S.'s deck did not exist before the printing of Deathrite Shaman.
Other decks, such as Esper, Junk, etc., existed and were just modified by the printing of new cards, as happens.
Did you understand my post above? The major reason I opened this post was to remove a sub-conversation we were having in the BUG Tempo thread. If you read pages 116-122 in the BUG Tempo thread, you'll see that first, wcm8 discussed splashing red. Then, the Berlin list posted, so Mark Sun, myself, and some other players were posting results from a deck that was close to BUG Tempo, but clearly wasn't BUG Tempo. Hence, a new thread was created.
Perhaps I was being optimistic by placing the thread in the Established Decks section; however, with the great amount of success the deck has had in the limited amount of time that it has been played, I felt that it belonged here.
Please keep future discussion related to the deck. If you've never played it, don't discuss how this deck is like some deck that failed three years ago in a totally different metagame, and, therefore, will lose. Don't make baseless blanket assumptions about the weaknesses of the deck without ever having played it or ever having played against it. If you don't like the direction that the thread is heading, then don't read it. I'm not going to post comments to myself. Eventually, it will fall to the bottom of the list with other decks that have gone out of vogue.
I've never opened a thread on the source before, but it has been an eye-opening experience. The number of people who will chime in to offer completely untested and inaccurate comments is just astounding. That being said, there are also a lot of very knowledgable commenters on the source, and those are the types of people that I hope to hear more from. I oscillate between a desire to discredit every stupid post made on this thread and a desire to move forward with actual discussion of the deck. I'm choosing to move forward with the discussion of the deck, after all, don't argue with a fool, people might not know the difference.
bruizar, don't think all of this is directed at you, because it isn't. If you don't like the direction the thread is headed, then why don't you offer suggestions?
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
The thing that I think is misleading the thread is that there are many different decks running a couple of the same cards discussed in the thread. This make sit unfocused. I'd like to sit and discuss 1 deck with a clear gameplan instead of going back and forth between lists before a dominant archetype is formed and thus challenged for its position later.
Problem is, I don't know which that deck is.
Thank you for your suggestion and response.
At present, there are three versions of the deck.
1) Tempo - the German list cited in the opening post - runs ~19 lands, Delver of Secrets, and no planeswalkers.
2) Mid-Range - Nick S's list from SCG - looks like a mutation of Bant, Junk, and Maverick - runs 22-23 lands with planeswalkers.
3) Modified Esper Stoneblade lists - Joe's and Lewis's lists from SCG - Esper Stoneblade with a green splash for Deathrite, Abrupt Decay and other goodies such as Life from the Loam and/or Maelstrom Pulse. Runs 23 lands and planeswalkers in an Esper shell.
The first two lists are unique and deserve their own thread. I could not find an existing thread where conversation about the first two lists would belong.
The third list is very close to Esper Stoneblade and perhaps belongs in the Blade Control thread.
Last edited by Water_Wizard; 12-18-2012 at 08:37 PM.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
I'm so glad some people finally did well with 4c good stuff decks. Now that they're no longer so easy to make fun of, we can actually get some discussion going.
I really like Nick Spagnolo's deck. It runs 13 "planeswalkers", making it very good at grinding out advantages from different positions. I'm not sure about the 4 Brainstorms and 4 Jaces, though. Obviously these cards are very good, but are they really necessary? With the deck's card quality this high, the deck might not need to dig so much.
(Forgive me if this doesn't belong here, but the thread is titled 4-color Deathrite Shamana and I don't know where else to post this) Just to throw this out there, what about a 4-color Deathrite build with red? Basically, RUG Delver + Deathrite Shaman. I'm not 100% of its merit, but REB is always a good sideboard card and Lightning Bolt + Deathrite Shaman is a pretty fast clock. Also, REB does hit Jace whereas Abrupt Decay doesn't, so perhaps it's a possible way to go. I threw together this list (the sideboard is a mess) quickly.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Divert
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Darkblast
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Can I ask how the midrange/stoneblade version of this deck ever beats combo? Is it only playable in a combo-less metagame? No counterspells and only 4 pieces of disruption is essentially nothing
Nick's list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=51628 does in fact run 13 planeswalkers if you count the 4 Jaces, 1 Elspeth, 4 Deathrites, 3 GSZ's, and 1 big Garruk in the board.
Brainstorm is just so good in any deck - it allows you to put back unneeded lands, removal, or discard, depending upon the match. With 10 Fetchlands, 3 GSZs, and KotR activations, there are plenty of methods for shuffling the top of your library. Brainstorm is just so good that it is hard not to include it in any deck running blue.
The 4 Jaces is a meta decision. This was a deck for the Invitational, thus, Nick is building it to combat a crowd with a lot of mid-range/control mirrors. You'll notice that a lot of the decks at the invitational run 4 Jaces. Given a 'regular' tournament with an open field, this number is most likely going to drop to 2-3 with the possibility of additional Jaces in the board for the control match-up. I'm betting Nick, as long as most of the other 'pros', expected a lot of mid-range and control- thus, they brought slightly slower decks and upped the Jace count.
It's a meta-game decision. You'll note that both of those decks were played at the Invitational. Pros weren't expecting other pros to play much combo. Joe Bernal's list did run 5 counterspells and 3 V. Cliques in the board to combat the combo match-up. In an open meta, I would expect more counterspells maindeck.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
It belongs here. When we originally started discussing 4-color Deathrite, it was in the BUG Tempo thread. wcm8 suggested splashing R for REB out of the board. Then the German uwbg list posted. There are benefits to the R list and benefits to the W list.
The W list offers STP, Lingering Souls, and the possibility of Stoneforge Mystic, Knight of the Reliquary, or Geist of St. Traft. STP is good in metas with big nasties, like Goyf, KotR, and Tombstalker, but Lightning Bolt is better against Agro and combo (for the reach). Abrupt Decay offers some answers to larger creatures, so long as their cc does not exceed 3.
Red offers better sideboard slots, but lacks in its ability to add win conditions. I would add an Ancient Grudge to your list. You could also add 2 Sulfur Elementals. I wouldn't run only 1 E. Plague- 1 without a way to tutor for it isn't going to do much good. Other than that, I like your list.
You make an excellent point about this deck needing an answer for Jace - it's either REB, our own Jace, or Maelstrom Pulse. I'll post some of our selected earlier conversations about the R splash below. They start around page 116 of the BUG Tempo thread. I would run Bayou and Badlands in your mana-base.
You might want to test Nimble and Deathrite together. They can compete for the graveyard. With Deathrite, Nimble, and Goyf, the deck becomes highly dependent upon the graveyard.
These are for a modified BUG version, so it might be best to eschew Wasteland and go with all duals/fetches.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
I don't think, the midrange lists can. I mean, the list with Jace, Elspeth and Garruk, which Nick played at the Invitationalhad 3 Hymn and 2 Cliques and nothing else to interact with the opponent himself and not his creatures.
The idea of SFM in the tempo list is cute but totally disharmonic to the plan. Thats what I didn't like about the UW Delver deck, which made Top8 at the GP Vidiguris won. It played Delver and SFM. These two cards just don't function well together, not only because you have 5 slots at minimum that won't flip the Wizard but because the game plan is so different.
Maybe the SFM is a viable plan in the midrange deck, just because the KOTR is so bad against the removal suit everybody's playing right now, but your space is very limited.
So, the Vapor Snag in my list from the MKM Open was a relic from the other tempo decks I played in Legacy, where the blue removal was overwhelming. At the moment, I did the move you already mentioned in cutting the Snags for more STP, just because so you can have additional SB slots, which you need. But maybe you need to be this tempo oriented, I don't know..
If there are other questions regarding my list, please feel free to ask ;)
Jasper Grimmer
Thanks for posting and congrats on the finish!
I don't understand your SFM argument - you say don't run SFM because it takes up 5 slots, but if you run Geist, it takes up 4, plus a slot for Jitte in the board. I've been very happy with the SFM package because it is a 2-drop and it shores up the bad match-ups like Aggro- having access to a Jitte or Batterskull game 1 is just nuts.
What was the Cavern of Souls for in the board? How has Geist worked out? I found that against the Aggro match-ups, she wasn't pulling her weight.
Here's my current list:
Lands (19)
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
Spells (27)
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard (15)
4 Force of Will
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls
1 Disfigure
1 Vendilion Clique
I've been playing against a lot of BUG and Aggro decks, so the 4 STPs reflects that. If I were playing against more combo, that number would be less.
Lingering Souls has been awesome. I'm considering putting one in place of the Liliana in the main deck. The Liliana is there as an extra sac effect and also to somewhat help the mid-range/control match-ups. I've also run V. Clique in the spot.
The Disfigure in the board is an answer to first-turn opposing Deathrites. Deathrite has become such a problem that we need an answer if they play one on turn 1. I think Disfigure is the best card for this and I've also considered running it main, but 5 dedicated removal slots is just so many dead cards vs. a creature-less deck (although every deck I've played lately has had creatures.) I've also considered the 4th Abrupt Decay in the board, but mainly for match-ups like Enchantress and other random decks where the extra non-creature permanent removal is helpful. Finally, I considered a 2nd Liliana in the board. Not sure if I like her or Disfigure in that spot. It depends on how many Deathrites I think I'll be seeing.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
Well thank you. I have to say that this list was a blast to play. Every opening hand and every Ponder looks awesome! After Round 1, I never dropped a single game, even against Dredge somehow..
Yeah well the thing with SFM is, that you spend 4 mana and two turns to attack in the third turn, plus any removal sets you at least two additional turns back. That's perfectly fine, if you don't rely on that tempo, but for me, these 4 lifelink damage are not compareble to the 6/2 Shroud man, who just wins by itself.
But that's maybe because I am the total Geist player. I don't board it out against Aggro, I even keep some of them in against most Combo decks. It's the most common way to win the game in this list and basicly every other list I played the last year.
With the Lingering Souls I agree with you. It's the best card in the SB but it belongs there. RUG will never board in Sulfur for Game 2 and against Combo it is the worst you can ever do. Plus, it doesn't support the tempo plan in any way.
For the opposing Deathrites, I never found them that oppressing..either I keep them in check with my own or I just play Geist and smash them to death. It's just a 1/2 in the end when it comes to blocking. So I don't think that you need the Disfigure. The forth Decay is the best Removal you can have in the board. Not only is it a roleplayer against CB and RUG, but it's your MVP against Maverick. You can handle either Jitte or Choke besides the creatures, if they ever seem to be a problem..
The Cavern was awesome and I considered even a second one. It is for the MUs where you want additional lands, but also your Geist not countered. This is mainly RUG and CB decks, but also other Delver lists like the tempo BUG one. It's fine also against Show and Tell because with the Clique you can let the Sorcery resolve and don't have to fear that they counter the Clique (only viable if you know that they have only one fatty via previous discard).
The biggest problem with the RUG MU is your manabase, so you want an additional land, but I wanted not just another Fetch but a utility one. I thought about Karakas but decided against it. Maybe this is the right call and maybe both are correct..
As for now, I certainly see the point of going more controllish with the SFM and what not. But then, why not go even bigger and then we are at Spagnolos list and this is - as posted previously - a completely different deck, which starts for me by cutting Geist.
I meant 4 Jace 1 Elspeth 4 Deathrite 4 KOTR. Now that you mention it, GSZ might as well count.
You're welcome!
Geist is amazing on a clear board- he's the best creature I could ask for and I would happily play him on a clear board or a board with a 1/2 Deathrite Shaman, etc. In testing, I ran into a number of matches like Goblins, BUG, or Maverick where they would have a Mogg War Marshall + token, a Tarmogofy, or a Thalia in play and that just made Geist look silly. Geist is a lot better on the play than on the draw, because you can keep your opponent playing reactively. However, vs. decks that land threats, I ran into too many situations where I couldn't attack with Geist because it just would have been a -4 plus a dead Geist. The game that made me decide to take Geist out was when my Maverick opponent ran Maze of Ith. I was helpless.
In a combo/control meta, I can see Geist being very good. In a meta where players want to win through the combat phase, I like SFM or KotR or Goyf #4. Something bigger that can hold its own during combat.
You have a good point about SFM taking 2 turns and 4 mana. It is an anti-tempo move. I'll keep testing with this slot. KotR might be alright, but then we should run the 'big' list like Nick Spagnolos's list. Access to Batterskull vs. Zombardment, Aggro, and decks with heavy removal (when we can just keep replaying 'Skull) has been huge. With Delver and Deathrite being 'must answer' threats, I've found that my opponents oftentimes have used their removal by the time I play SFM.
RE: Opposing Deathrites- this has been a problem for me. I'm still not sure the Disfigure in the board is correct, I actually changed it to a Path to Exile. However, if your opponent goes T1 Deathrite, and you go T1 Deathrite, then they can use their Deathrite to counter your Deathrite - you target a land and they target the same land and you can't gain any mana. It's a dirty trick, but it stunts your mana development.
There are very few first turn creatures that I would FOW, but Deathrite and Lackey are two of them that I will FOW on site.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
Yes, then I guess we have 17 planeswalkers! Oh my ;)
PS - I wonder when Linvala becomes a suitable tech card to shut down Deathrite? I've considered running it - I think it fits well in Nick Spagnolos's build. However, maybe by the time Linvala comes into play, the Deathrite damage has already been done? Linvala survives Abrupt Decay, so that's worth a mention.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
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