I talked to jasper after the legacy event and i believed this was saturday mar 9 at R4 modern PTQ at our country (philippines) I said I want to model his 4C shaman deck and asked for few questions about it and 1 question i asked was the 4 dimir charm, "how's the 4 dimir charm?" he replied "I only used 1 and i can't say much info about it cuz i only drew it once in a 7-rounder swiss". From the said statement I believe from his intention he wanted to play 1 copy of dimir charm but maybe due to what is written and verified by the TO and judge (it is for sure that deck check was executed before the top 8 matches) he unintentionally ran extra 3 copies of it and from my point of view he doesn't check well the addition of dimir charms cuz I saw him bought the charms and sleeved them before the R1 of swiss began.
But it is better that jasper himself (muxi here at the source) discuss his deck.
@SBGpinas: John Say? the one who piloted UG turbo eldrazi? I was guessing
Yep that's me... if I may ask, who are you?Originally Posted by ryn ball_2
I talked to jasper after the legacy event and i believed this was saturday mar 9 at R4 modern PTQ at our country (philippines) I said I want to model his 4C shaman deck and asked for few questions about it and 1 question i asked was the 4 dimir charm, "how's the 4 dimir charm?" he replied "I only used 1 and i can't say much info about it cuz i only drew it once in a 7-rounder swiss". From the said statement I believe from his intention he wanted to play 1 copy of dimir charm but maybe due to what is written and verified by the TO and judge (it is for sure that deck check was executed before the top 8 matches) he unintentionally ran extra 3 copies of it and from my point of view he doesn't check well the addition of dimir charms cuz I saw him bought the charms and sleeved them before the R1 of swiss began.
But it is better that jasper himself (muxi here at the source) discuss his deck.
@SBGpinas: John Say? the one who piloted UG turbo eldrazi? I was guessing
Sorry for the derail, but yes, we have confirmation that it was a clerical error. The list only contains 1 Dimir Charm.
Last edited by SBGpinas; 03-20-2013 at 12:35 PM.
he was byron a teammate of mine from TJB
This is my "4-color Deathrite" deck. I have been playing it for about a month, and it has been doing very well. It's more similar to Esper, but there are some important green cards in the SB. This deck can beat any matchup. I am playing it at the Invitational this weekend and the Legacy Open if I don't top 8. Maybe it will do well
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Wasteland
SB
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Disfigure
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Envelop
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Detention Sphere
Here's another list that placed at SCG Kansas City on 24MAR13 - basically Jasper's list with a few small tweaks: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...3&iddeck=76381
Mark, how were the 4 Dimir Charms?
Here's a 'bigger' version of the deck, which is closer to an Esper shell (sans countermagic): http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...4&iddeck=75895
Patrunkenphat - this is kind of similar to your deck. Good luck! Let us know how it goes.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
Here's a Deck Tech covering the above-referenced deck: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...blade_wit.html
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
Not been playing long (MtG for nearly 2-Years, Legacy for about half that) and I'm going to be looking into the 27 Spells 3 Dimir Charm list that was posted above. The deck looks super tight, and I love the use of Dimir Charm as a ninth, tenth, and eleventh Brainstorm effect, but with the Charm ability to just kill random Creatures or stop some mental Sorcery that is about to wreck you. (From Thoughtseize and Ponder, through GSZ, to Show and Tell.) Between that and the 5 free counterspells, 5 hand attack Spells, and the 9 other forms of card draw (keeping in mind that you can use Clique and Dimir Charm if you're struggling) it should have an excellent G1 against combo compared to many other decks.
A quick question; in this kind of deck, I'm still T1 Thoughtseize over almost any other possible line in 90% of my hands against an unknown deck, right? How important is it to get something like Delver down on the first turn?
Good question.
Are you on the play or on the draw?
If I am on the play and I have a Daze, I would drop Delver or Deathrite, because you pretty much know that you can protect it (minus them having a Daze of their own). Delver creates an early clock and acts as a threat that they must answer. Deathrite gives you mana acceleration and is helpful vs. any graveyard based deck. Even without Daze, you've still forced them to play reactively, essentially 'wasting' their first turn removing your threat. You can untap on your 2nd turn, use your discard and Ponder or drop another threat.
If I am on the draw, I would play Thoughtseize (as long as their T1 play didn't give me information to the contrary). Your Thoughtseize can discard their removal and give you information for your T2. Once you see their hand, you know if you are clear to drop your threat. Also, if they have U mana open, your Thoughtseize loses value, because they can Brainstorm in response and hide their best stuff.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
Ok some quick comments on my side, just to put things right ;)
I played a 60-card deck with just one Dimir Charm. My writing on the 4 is like the philippine 1, but I figured the TO must have worked that out considering the numbers on the other cardnames...I sleeved the Charms, because I perfectsleeve every card..and there was certainly no deckcheck before the T8.
I really like the list of Nicholas Lassen, who placed 9th on the last SCG Opens with the additional Dimir Charm, although this was probably unintentional, considering the confusion here. Maybe you can make the cuts he did, but to miss a Decay is still hurting. The addition of the Souls is to fight Lilianas, which are like the worst thing that can happen to you..with Jund on the fall again it may be considered to drop them completely from the Maindeck again, going back to the original list.
So this is what I wanted this deck to be. No fancy SFM, no stupid Jace action! Just bashing as fast as you can! I killed my TES opponent, which triple discarded me in both games on Turn 4 (without even a Delver).
And considering this, of course you play either a Delver or a Deathrite on Turn 1 before your discard spell! What do you gonna take anyway?..
Turn 1 plays in order:
1. Delver
2. Deathrite
3. Discard
4. Ponder
5. Mulligan (plus, if your hand with 3. doesnt contain one of the other three options or Geist, mulligan as well)
Yep thats basically it. I would like to talk to Nicholas Lassen, if anyone got his contact by any chance? Otherwise good luck to you for next tournaments!
Jasper,
Thanks for the info. I've been running your list, except +1 Bayou, -1 Tropical Island (only change).
I have a few questions and comments about your latest build (congrats on the win, btw):
1) Mana-curve - 19 lands, 5 'free' spells, 23 1-drops, 6 2-drops, and 7 3-drops main and 1 land, 2 'free' spells, 3 1-drops, 1 2-drop, 6 3-drops, and 2 4-drops in the sideboard. (total count 20 land, 7 'free' spells, 26 1-drops, 7 2-drops, 13 3-drops, and 2 4-drops). The mana curve skips the 2-drop (all but 1 2-drop card is reactive (Sylvan Library)). You can manufacture the 2-drop by playing 2 1-drops or you can use DRS to accelerate into a 3-drop. Tarmogoyf and SFM fit the 2-drop slot very well. I think SFM is a must if expecting to play against Burn. Tarmogoyf means that I can't run Perish in the sideboard, but if I have Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose doesn't look so bad and Perish is bad with DRS anyway. All the 3-drops scare me because if you get tight on mana, that is a lot of dead cards. However, I'm still testing with your list.
2) What decks do you bring Elspeth in against? Control is the only m/u I can think of. However, with 4 Geist and 4 Lingering Souls, the control match-up already seems pretty good.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
I really like cutting the Gosts for Goyfs, and possibly a Clique, too. It pulls your blue count to 18/19 (depending on what happens with the Clique), so it may not be the wisest choice. I can't really find anything else I would even want at two that is Blue, so it might be best to just leave it as Gost, but I may want to up the land count.
The fact that there are 9 Draw Spells that each let you see far into your deck to cantrip probably makes the 3-drops okay. I've not had a true chance to play it out, and Gost does have the habit of just killing people. I may look into having them in the board when I want to be more aggressive, and could look into cutting something like Dimir Charm and/or Forces for them.
Any thoughts on running a 1-of Snapcaster Mage? I like Snapcaster because it adds recursion and it adds value in the late game.
I've been running Muxi's build with the Geists, and so far, so good, but I've also played Geist-favored match-ups, like Miracles. If I play a deck like Jund, I need a Batterskull to give me a fighting chance. However, Geist has been good vs. Miracles, the Mirror, and RUG (other than the fact that it can be Pyroblasted and dies to Rough/Tumble).
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
I like Snap a lot here. Drawing an additional card via a Brainstorm effect seems strong. It made Jace good, anyway. I might look into cutting Linger for it. I love Lingering Souls (probably more than anyone else on the planet) but I don't feel it here. It can be sideboarded against things like Jund, Gx ramp, and maybe Stoneblade (if you can find enough to cut) but in the main deck it feels a little clunky. We have no real use for it, it is an answer to cards they may just not have.
EDIT: I'm also looking at maining that Karakas somewhere. It's great against certain decks, and saving Geist and reusing Clique is always fun. It also ups to 20 land, and if Snap makes the cut, then it might help a lot.
Those are both good observations. I've considered lowering the Geist count to 3, or even 2 with more in the board. Personally, I really like Lingering Souls. It is very good vs. RUG or any deck where you just need to block to buy time. I run 2 main and 2 in the sb. 2 in the sb may be excessive, as you never really want two in hand and it runs the risk of making opposing Surgical effects all the more powerful.
i'm still tweaking. I built one deck with Geist (very similar to Jasper's build) and another with SFM. So far, the Geist build has been doing well enough that I haven't tried the SFM build.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
I play tested 5 matches with the deck tonight and it runs well. The burn match-up is pretty much miserable. I split vs. Jund- the games I won he drew badly. I beat Enchantress and Ramp-MUD (artifacts with posts and candelabras).
I'm running Jasper's main except +1 Bayou, -1 UGS.
Sideboard -2 Elspeth, -1 V. Clique, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 STP
I considered running SCM, Jitte, Tarmogoyf, and SFM + equipment. If the meta shifts towards more aggro, SFM + Batterskull is needed. SCM doesn't seem necessary as it is an extra 3-coster. Jitte as a 1-of seems bad, as it opens up artifact hate (without it, the deck has 0 artifacts), although it would open up a removal slot.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
If someone is boarding in Artifact Hate because I run a single Jitte, I think I'm winning that war. What do you bring in? A single Ancient Grudge? That's mostly fine. My card was free, and if you don't have it at the right time it doesn't matter anyway. They might just not draw it, and if they bring in more than one, they have more dead cards in their deck. If I spread my threats over a wide area, then it's making my opponent's life hard. Lingering Souls requires multiple cards, Geist requires non-targeted removal. This leaves Sweepers as your best option. Woops I just dropped Vendilion Clique post Sweeper, now you're dead. My Delver and Geist are coming into the Red Zone, but my Shaman is attacking your Graveyard, using both of them as a resource, and is attacking from at home. The deck has a wide variety of threats acting in different ways. RUG Delver makes guys and turns them sideways. An RiP will shut down 60% of its threats, whilst the Shaman will keep them well under control, and you can deal with Delver in a billion and one ways in this format. We are playing RUG's strategy (minus Bolts) but with a more diverse plan of attacking, making it harder to disrupt.
However, I am kind of against the Jitte for different reasons. It doesn't do anything on its own, and running it alongside SFM will cause a couple of clunky draws where you kind of want to leave up some mana for a Shaman or to protect your Delver/Geist, but instead you have this Squire in your hand rotting away, or this 4-mana Spell that will just leave you wide open to some removal. We were discussing dropping our curve a minute ago, and now you're saying we should put 4-drops in. At that point, we [i]must[/] increase our Land count, and I really don't see where we can do that whilst also making room for these additional cards, and not killing half of the reason this deck even seems strong to me. This is about the only FoW deck that seems like it has a decent MU Vs Jund. (But maybe that's because it's only playing 2, and isn't really a FoW deck. :S)
I will point out that I'm a little tired at this point. I think that what I have said makes sense, but if I'm being an idiot then that's probably fine too and I apologise.
EDIT: Also, I've been looking into Gut Shot. It hits a lot of really relevant cards right now, Delver, Bob, Lavaman, random Elves, Vendilion Clique, Lili when she comes down and edicts. I think it has a lot of power here, especially if Snapcaster Mage does come in. Snap + Gut Shot has been one of my favourite plays in Magic, and doing it again would definitely feel good.
I agree with what you say above, Jitte doesn't fit this deck's mana curve and requires creatures on board (basically, a win more), and therefore, should be left out.
Regarding Gut Shot, why not just run StP or PtE? I realize that Gut Shot is 'free,' so that adds so value. Between StP and Abrupt Decay, I feel like I have enough removal (and sometimes too much).
Here is a deck that Gerry T used to win a MTGO daily a week ago: http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Deck/169307 It's an interesting mix. I'm not sure if he's written about it somewhere or made a video. Apparently, he went in pretty much untested.
Last edited by Water_Wizard; 04-08-2013 at 05:22 PM.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
Yeah my nine kill Spells should do the job, hopefully.
EDIT: I've been doing some thinking, and I've come around to cutting a Gost for a Karakas. The one less threat is fine with how fast we can rip through our deck, and the sability gained from having Karakas in the main, protecting our threats, improving MUs Vs various decks, and the additional Land, is very important. The additional slot in the sideboard, seeing as I don't see the point in the fourth Gost in any specific match, allowed me to explore other options. Specifically Intuition.
At first, I decided I didn't like double Elspeth. She's excellent, one of my favourites, but she feels a tad clinky here. She could close out the game, but I don't want to see her too early, and when I do I don't want to throw her back with Brainstorm attempting to find the Lands I need to cast her. She came out, giving me a second space. The first plan was to add Snapcaster Mage and something that would allow us to take either a more aggressive route in G2, or a slower more controlling route. The aggression definitely feels better with 20 Lands, but I decided to try a personal favourite of mine; Intuition. All of the numbers seemed so perfect. We have 3 of plenty of cards, and we wind up with '2 and Snap' if many specific cards in the sideboard. The only problem I'm seeing is that this isn't a 22 Land deck. With some more Lands I'd be comfortable with Perish Perish Snap, untap into a 5-mana Wrath with a 2/1 body. Right now that feels fairly ambitious, but I'd like to try it out. These are the dire situations in a later stage when we may well have found the lands we need.
Last edited by YamiJoey; 04-09-2013 at 06:08 AM.
As I stated many times, Geist is your main way to win the game. If you start cutting them, you either destroy or change it drastically. The same with SFM. It just goes in a different direction than an aggressive tempo deck like this.
So, I never had a problem with the curve. You just have so many cantrips and other things to do to use your mana each turn completely - DRS is a pro in helping you in just that.
But I have to agree on the Souls, now they are in the SB again, freeing slots in the main for Dimir Charm and Vendilion Clique.
The Elspeth is there for midrange attrition based wars. She beats Jace, Garruk, Liliana, Bloodbraid and basically every other creature besides Tombstalker. Lingering Souls is also a problem, but therefor you got your own copy. So, Miracles, Stoneblade, Jund, BUG, Junk, Goblins, thats where she comes in..
I think I'm just playing with the list for something to do now. I'm going to play it as I have it for a while and see if anything changes later on.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
