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Thread: [EDH] Cromat

  1. #21

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Amarth View Post
    That's a very thoughtful, interesting post. Before I get into it, thank you very much for the input. It's certainly appreciated!

    Also, to preface things, this deck is pretty metagame dependent. There are a lot of things you will never drop like Pernicious Deed or Mana Drain but there are quite a few slots that are dependent on what you're facing. This has influenced quite a few of my choices. Alrighty!

    {snipped}
    You rock! Thank you for taking the time to respond. Also, thank you for the great info on Loam/Intuition (and all of the other card choices). I'm going to switch things up and try it out.

  2. #22
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Lemme know how it goes. Also you can go ahead and post your list if you'd like, other cards you want to test out, random musings. Whatever.

    How is Thopter-Sword working out for you, by the way?
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  3. #23

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Have you thought about adding either Overburden or Spreading Plague as more control versus tokens?

    Is Hull Breach good enough to run?

  4. #24
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post
    Have you thought about adding either Overburden or Spreading Plague as more control versus tokens?

    Is Hull Breach good enough to run?
    Spreading Plague is a nonbo with either commander. EVERYTHING kills it.

    Overburden sounds amazing for a creatureless deck though.
    Ward of Bones? Pretty brutal to resolve this and then drop a Wrath effect. It doesn't count Planeswalkers, so it's just plain unfair.

  5. #25

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Spreading Plague is a nonbo with either commander. EVERYTHING kills it.

    Overburden sounds amazing for a creatureless deck though.
    Ward of Bones? Pretty brutal to resolve this and then drop a Wrath effect. It doesn't count Planeswalkers, so it's just plain unfair.
    Or you can flip your commander back onto your deck in response to the creature being cast and wrath again next turn. I think the pros of the card as a continual wrath for 4B outweigh the small con. It's somewhat similar to Humility in the way it controls the board.

    Ward is a nice find, especially because our board is usually pretty clear.

  6. #26
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post
    Have you thought about adding either Overburden or Spreading Plague as more control versus tokens?

    Is Hull Breach good enough to run?
    Overburden is nifty but only good early. Plague is nice but not really something I'm looking for. I've never had a problem with durdly token decks. Plague has been unreliable too because your opponents can play around it. The only real lock type effects that I'm considering atm are Torpor Orb or Cursed Totem

    Hull Breach is good. The only problem is it's the two colors I use the least and sorcery speed. Not bad but a little clunky for me. YMMV.

    @FTW Ward of Bones isn't very good because of the way it's worded. They can still get creatures out after you wipe the board with it in play. 6 mana is too much for something that doesn't lock the game out or even do much of anything, really.
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  7. #27
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Update:

    - Wargate
    - Stroke of Genius

    + Mystic Remora
    + Unexpectedly Absent

    The X-spells were too slow. When they came online they were almost always redundant: either I had my board locked up already or a CA engine already active, respectively.

    I haven't played Remora in EDH but I suppose it should be good. We'll see.

    On the other hand, Unexpectedly Absent is freakin' nuts. It tucks all sorts of problematic permanents or barring a shuffle effect it can act as a pseudo-Time Walk. Or just run it out EOT and jam something so fucking far down their library they won't see it for the rest of the game. Did I mention this is also a two mana instant? More like Unexpectedly Awesome.
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  8. #28
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Update:

    + Forest
    + Tolaria West
    + The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    + Exploration
    + Mindbreak Trap
    + Tormod's Crypt
    + Supreme Verdict

    - Alchemist's Refuge
    - Crumbling Necropolis
    - Seaside Citadel
    - Nihil Spellbomb
    - Damnation
    - Bant Charm
    - Dissipate

    The land package got switched up a bit. With my curve getting smaller and smaller, I don't need as many lands. Refuge never did much and Tabernacle is broken. The added basic is for protection. Mindbreak Trap is just a better counter than Dissipate where it has many more applications and is occasionally free. Verdict because uncounterability is clutch and regeneration is mostly irrelevant. Crypt for Spellbomb so it can be tutored with Tolaria West. Exploration powers up so many cards it's silly to list them all. I wanted to fit another mana rock in here for some time now but nothing was really that appealing. Should have been lookin' at enchantments...

    ...what? Oh, right the opening post looks a little different. It's more of a [Primer] now. I'll be editing it constantly to try to keep it relevant, clean up my terrible grammar, etc.
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  9. #29

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Thank you for keeping the list and changes updated and for the re-worked primer!

    Stroke of Genius / Mystic Remora
    I'm with you on Stroke of Genius. I was never casting it, so I put Mystic Remora in that spot. Sometimes, I would pay upkeep for a couple of turns and get nothing. Sometimes, I would draw 3+ cards before it even came around to my turn. Sometimes, I would drop it just before a counter war and come out ahead. It's not perfect, but it's something.

    Wargate
    I only get to play a couple of a games per week, so my testing is limited. But, replacing Wargate? It's come in handy for getting Academy Ruins directly into play, for example. With the Tabernacle in your list, this would be another good target. Do you find that it is too many intensive? Or that there aren't enough targets?

    Unexpectedly Absent / Bant Charm
    When I did a side-by-side comparison of the changes, it looked like Unexpectedly Absent replaced Bant Charm. I've put Zur on the bottom of a library several times, always to great (soul-crushing) effect. The other modes for Bant Charm are occasionally useful, too. How often are you targeting something other than a creature with Unexpectedly Absent? I'm still looking at Hide//Seek. Exiling Omniscience, Enter the Infinite, or Mind Over Matter (with Seek) seems too good to pass up.

    Lands:
    I don't like lands that come into play tapped. I am usually able to play around the tri-lands drawback, but I think you are on the right track with more basics. I run into Ruination, Blood Moon, etc, more often than I would like. If they catch me at the wrong time, it's game-breaking. Using Tolaria West for tutoring sounds like a good plan. I'll have to give that a try.

    I was also thinking about the Tabernacle and meant to ask you about it. Token strategies get stymied by it. And even if they have a way to destroy it, between Loam and Crucible, it'll be back. I was never using Alchemist's Refuge to great effect, so the Tabernacle seems like a good replacement.

    Supreme Verdict / Damnation
    Yes! In the first 4-5 turns, I found that I was looking for double-blue (UU) for counterspells, and then had to make a choice of going for double-white (WW) or double-black (BB). Several important spells in this deck require WW, but in a few games I was stuck with a Damnation in my hand without a way to make BB when I needed it. Swapping for Supreme Verdict reduces the need for BB, especially in my list since I don't have Grim Tutor.

    Exploration
    Also awesome. Not much to say here.

    Nihil Spellbomb / Tormod's Crypt
    I don't run into many decks with heavy reliance on the graveyard, but being prepared with an easy way to deal with it when it does come up is important. Finding it with Tolaria West is gravy. You know, Wargate for zero finds Tormod's Crypt. ;)

    Dissipate / Mindbreak Trap
    Would you mind sharing some examples where Mindbreak Trap has exiled more than one spell and impacted the game? (I respect your commentary and card choices. I'd like to know more about how / when to play Mindbreak Trap over Dissipate.)

  10. #30
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Petracca View Post
    Thank you for keeping the list and changes updated and for the re-worked primer!

    Stroke of Genius / Mystic Remora
    I'm with you on Stroke of Genius. I was never casting it, so I put Mystic Remora in that spot. Sometimes, I would pay upkeep for a couple of turns and get nothing. Sometimes, I would draw 3+ cards before it even came around to my turn. Sometimes, I would drop it just before a counter war and come out ahead. It's not perfect, but it's something.

    Wargate
    I only get to play a couple of a games per week, so my testing is limited. But, replacing Wargate? It's come in handy for getting Academy Ruins directly into play, for example. With the Tabernacle in your list, this would be another good target. Do you find that it is too many intensive? Or that there aren't enough targets?

    Unexpectedly Absent / Bant Charm
    When I did a side-by-side comparison of the changes, it looked like Unexpectedly Absent replaced Bant Charm. I've put Zur on the bottom of a library several times, always to great (soul-crushing) effect. The other modes for Bant Charm are occasionally useful, too. How often are you targeting something other than a creature with Unexpectedly Absent? I'm still looking at Hide//Seek. Exiling Omniscience, Enter the Infinite, or Mind Over Matter (with Seek) seems too good to pass up.

    Lands:
    I don't like lands that come into play tapped. I am usually able to play around the tri-lands drawback, but I think you are on the right track with more basics. I run into Ruination, Blood Moon, etc, more often than I would like. If they catch me at the wrong time, it's game-breaking. Using Tolaria West for tutoring sounds like a good plan. I'll have to give that a try.

    I was also thinking about the Tabernacle and meant to ask you about it. Token strategies get stymied by it. And even if they have a way to destroy it, between Loam and Crucible, it'll be back. I was never using Alchemist's Refuge to great effect, so the Tabernacle seems like a good replacement.

    Supreme Verdict / Damnation
    Yes! In the first 4-5 turns, I found that I was looking for double-blue (UU) for counterspells, and then had to make a choice of going for double-white (WW) or double-black (BB). Several important spells in this deck require WW, but in a few games I was stuck with a Damnation in my hand without a way to make BB when I needed it. Swapping for Supreme Verdict reduces the need for BB, especially in my list since I don't have Grim Tutor.

    Exploration
    Also awesome. Not much to say here.

    Nihil Spellbomb / Tormod's Crypt
    I don't run into many decks with heavy reliance on the graveyard, but being prepared with an easy way to deal with it when it does come up is important. Finding it with Tolaria West is gravy. You know, Wargate for zero finds Tormod's Crypt. ;)

    Dissipate / Mindbreak Trap
    Would you mind sharing some examples where Mindbreak Trap has exiled more than one spell and impacted the game? (I respect your commentary and card choices. I'd like to know more about how / when to play Mindbreak Trap over Dissipate.)
    @Stroke of Genius/Mystic Remora: I like Remora so far. It draws quite a few cards for little/moderate investment. Stroke was too dang slow. Perfectly fine late game but it doesn't help us to get there.

    @Wargate: Wargate was a bit too slow and unwieldy for me. It is fine late game, of course.

    @Unexpectedly Absent/Bant Charm: The last card I cast UA on was a Future Sight. So a few times, at least. This shouldn't be seen as a criticism of Bant Charm; it's still very good. Certainly a card very much worth playing. More on Hide // Seek later.

    @Lands: Agreed. As I'm trying to reduce the CMC of Cromat further and further down I started running into a few issues with being unable to cast my spells due to ETBT lands. So I replaced the last triland (still, probably, worth running) and Tolaria West (still good, didn't test it much but these were the only possible land slots to replace) with the UW/UB shock lands. More fetch-able lands is nice and more of the colors that we use the most. The only lands that always ETBT are the Cycling lands, which we don't play if we can get away with and Grand Coliseum which is nonnegotiable.

    I haven't seen Tabernacle since I've added it but it has synergy with your other lock effects and slow down other peoples decks a bit. Oh and it does crush token decks too. The theory behind it is good. I don't think I'll be disappointed with it. It compliments Maze well because Maze covers you when there is one fatty and they can't swarm Maze because Tabernacle is lolz.

    /aside

    I played Cromat last week at a local shop. It was me against mostly new players who I hadn't played against before. I lost the roll and went last and of course the guy that went first dropped a Burning Earth on turn four, the turn before I draw my countermagic. OK, unexpected. Everyone thinks I'm boned but I fetch into my Esper Basic lands to go on with my business. I drop a Humility and then a Moat later on. And the table is locked up more or less after taking some beats. I try and find a way to deal with the non-Basic hoser in play that is also backed up by Karmic Justice. Right around here is where I fuck up. For whatever reason I don't tutor up and drop a Karn Liberated and end up crafting a more complex, and disruptable, endgame. I end up losing to a bunch of pumped tokens from an Akroma's Memorial. Pretty dumb way to lose because I wasn't paying enough attention to what was on the board and when I was tutoring. So, there are a few things to take away from this.

    1. This deck is hard to play. With so many tutors, you can screw up pretty easy if you choose the wrong card. As you can see, obviously it can be the difference between a win and a loss. Stay calm. Collected and be sure to recognize what's in play and don't be dumb like me. :P

    2. The Basic Lands are really, really good here. I've been pretty happy with the Forest so far and it even has sweet Beta art too. Double win! They let you, in addition to artifact mana, play around all those old, brutal hosers.

    3. Karn Liberated is so very, very good. It would have easily locked up the game by exiling (not destroy!) the few relevant permanents in play or for even more obnoxious board states just restart the fucking game. It would have let me win an obvious 3v1 scenario. sitting behind a couple lock pieces. It is interesting; I believe I've been underrating how good his ultimate is but I'll be sure to pay more attention to that option in the future.

    4. I never feel like any part of the game was out of my control, so to speak. I spent a couple hours after the game, at home, trying to figure out what happened, why I lost. I go back through my decision trees and figure out where I made the wrong play. I really like that. It helps me get better as a player because it's important to recognize when you've made a mistake. Otherwise, how would you improve?

    /end aside

    @Supreme Verdict/Damnation: I removed Damnation for those reasons, lessening the strain on my manabase.

    @Exploration: Ditto.

    @Nihil Spellbomb/Tormod's Crypt: I've been happy with Crypt because you save one or usually two mana off the cost/activation of Spellbomb. Pretty sure this is just a preference thing.

    @Dissipate/Mindbreak Trap: Oh man, I don't think I can even come up with a stock scenario. The most plausible one revolves around blue players casting a lot of instants at EOT i.e. Player A FoFs and Player B responds with his own and then you trap them. There are a lot of different Flash enablers from the very new and very good Prophet of Kruphix or Teferi or even something like Vedalken Orrery or Winding Canyons. I'm sure there are quite a few situations where it will come up but most will probably come up against blue decks. If you want an example where I've used it to counter more than one spell sadly I have not. I didn't get to play too much this last couple weeks. Once I get more experience with it I'll be sure to put it in the opening post. :)



    So I've made a few changes recently including the addition of Cunning Wish. I've spent the last few days trying to come up with a good list of cards to wish for and I believe that Hide // Seek would be excellent here. A Deglamer/Extract split card is pretty damn good. Taking a combo piece at instant speed, blanking their just cast tutor, or tucking any of the new gods is amazing. Especially since the gods of Theros are actually pretty good. Purphoros, God of the Forge does some degenerate things. Other cards I've included are Cyclonic Rift (get outta jail free card!), Pact of Negation, Trickbind and Ravenous Trap. I also considered moving Mindbreak Trap to the side too but it seems like a card I'd want main deck. Needs more testing.

    Thanks for the comments. :)
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  11. #31

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Amarth View Post
    {snipped}

    So I've made a few changes recently including the addition of Cunning Wish. I've spent the last few days trying to come up with a good list of cards to wish for and I believe that Hide // Seek would be excellent here. A Deglamer/Extract split card is pretty damn good. Taking a combo piece at instant speed, blanking their just cast tutor, or tucking any of the new gods is amazing. Especially since the gods of Theros are actually pretty good. Purphoros, God of the Forge does some degenerate things. Other cards I've included are Cyclonic Rift (get outta jail free card!), Pact of Negation, Trickbind and Ravenous Trap. I also considered moving Mindbreak Trap to the side too but it seems like a card I'd want main deck. Needs more testing.

    Thanks for the comments. :)
    Thank you again for the commentary. When you get a chance, please post the wish board and what you took out for Cunning Wish. :) My old Keeper deck worked like this.

    Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker - how often does Bolas end up being the card that pushes you to victory instead of simply winning more? The reason I ask is that I haven't had a game where I cast him. It's always too much mana. When I have that much mana at my disposal, there are lots of things I can do and things are looking pretty bad for the other players already.

    Assemble the Legion - Have you considered this card? Doesn't work well with the Tabernacle, but it has inevitability, is an enchantment, blocks, attacks, etc. It gets better with a long game, like this deck plays.

  12. #32
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Petracca View Post
    Thank you again for the commentary. When you get a chance, please post the wish board and what you took out for Cunning Wish. :) My old Keeper deck worked like this.

    Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker - how often does Bolas end up being the card that pushes you to victory instead of simply winning more? The reason I ask is that I haven't had a game where I cast him. It's always too much mana. When I have that much mana at my disposal, there are lots of things I can do and things are looking pretty bad for the other players already.

    Assemble the Legion - Have you considered this card? Doesn't work well with the Tabernacle, but it has inevitability, is an enchantment, blocks, attacks, etc. It gets better with a long game, like this deck plays.
    Sure.

    I'm testing wish in place of cap.

    Cunning Wish stuff:

    Memory Plunder
    Blue Sun's Zenith
    Hide // Seek
    Terminate
    Pact of Negation
    Ravenous Trap
    Cyclonic Rift
    Trickbind
    Constant Mists
    Ruination

    This is just a preliminary list of targets that I'm using at the moment. No real philosophy behind it so it looks just like a lot of random stuff. Unfortunately, I couldn't think of a better draw spell than BSZ, SR is slightly better but they're both expensive and clunky.

    @Nicol Bolas: I find that the board often gets stalled and Nicol Bolas is a good way to blow open the game. Or there are the rare times when you ramp into him super fast; that's pretty sweet too.

    @ASL: Too slow to do anything relevant. It's not really that great at playing defensive since it takes too many turns to get your manas worth out of it. It's also pretty bad way to win since it's just worse than Door. And it's really bad with Moat or Tabernacle in play.
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  13. #33

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    I haven't seen anybody post here in a little while, but this has become one of my favorite EDH (Commander... whatever) decks to play since it plays out as sort of a history of format-defining cards. Not to mention the value of the deck has almost doubled since I put it together.

    I have a few comments:

    The Abyss seems weak as a creature solution. It's very slow, and the fact that it's the opponent's choice on what creature to ditch means it almost never hits what you want. The only time it's really useful is when you're ahead on board and it's one of the worst top-decks in the entire deck when you're behind. This is the definition of win-more, no? Do you have examples of games where The Abyss saved you? It seems like a sweeper like Damnation would be more useful.

    I know the mana base is very tight, but have you thought about adding any more utility lands to form a more solid Tolaria West package? Tabernacle is a great target, but there may be others if this avenue were explored.

    I've added Mystical Teachings because it meshes well with the idea of being a reactionary deck. You already have a fairly solid instant package in the deck and Teachings gives you a way to tap into that. It's fairly poor early game, but after turn 7 or so, it becomes an incredible trump card. It may be worth finding an instant-speed sweeper, although I'm not sure what would work best.

    Lastly, I've been looking for one more piece of inexpensive counter-magic to hold for answers. The deck tends to drop lock pieces to create security against the other decks at the table, but well-timed sweepers can undo your hard work. I was thinking of running Negate, but its restrictions make me wary.

    If you have an update to the deck, that would be appreciated. Otherwise, let me know your thoughts.

  14. #34
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post
    I haven't seen anybody post here in a little while, but this has become one of my favorite EDH (Commander... whatever) decks to play since it plays out as sort of a history of format-defining cards. Not to mention the value of the deck has almost doubled since I put it together.

    I have a few comments:

    The Abyss seems weak as a creature solution. It's very slow, and the fact that it's the opponent's choice on what creature to ditch means it almost never hits what you want. The only time it's really useful is when you're ahead on board and it's one of the worst top-decks in the entire deck when you're behind. This is the definition of win-more, no? Do you have examples of games where The Abyss saved you? It seems like a sweeper like Damnation would be more useful.

    I know the mana base is very tight, but have you thought about adding any more utility lands to form a more solid Tolaria West package? Tabernacle is a great target, but there may be others if this avenue were explored.

    I've added Mystical Teachings because it meshes well with the idea of being a reactionary deck. You already have a fairly solid instant package in the deck and Teachings gives you a way to tap into that. It's fairly poor early game, but after turn 7 or so, it becomes an incredible trump card. It may be worth finding an instant-speed sweeper, although I'm not sure what would work best.

    Lastly, I've been looking for one more piece of inexpensive counter-magic to hold for answers. The deck tends to drop lock pieces to create security against the other decks at the table, but well-timed sweepers can undo your hard work. I was thinking of running Negate, but its restrictions make me wary.

    If you have an update to the deck, that would be appreciated. Otherwise, let me know your thoughts.
    The Abyss is a prison card. It's meant to run your opponents out of creatures and it also works really well with board sweepers and Tabernacle. Unless there are a lot of tokens in play you aren't very concerned with what it hits. I think your looking at the card the wrong way. It's not a get out of jail free card. Think of it more like an asymmetrical Smokestack

    I don't think there is any utility land in particular that I'd want to make room for currently. I could be forgetting something. Did you have something in mind?

    Mystical Teachings isn't a bad card; it's instant, card advantage and a tutor but it's far too slow making it worse than pretty much all of the expensive black tutors. Only being able to fetch out instants is really where it gets bad. There are too many important cards that you want to get that are non-instants.

    The deck has changed. Ill update it when M15 comes out. Thanks for the comments. :)
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  15. #35

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Amarth View Post
    The Abyss is a prison card. It's meant to run your opponents out of creatures and it also works really well with board sweepers and Tabernacle. Unless there are a lot of tokens in play you aren't very concerned with what it hits. I think your looking at the card the wrong way. It's not a get out of jail free card. Think of it more like an asymmetrical Smokestack
    I understand what it's trying to do, it just does it soooo slowly that I'd almost rather have a vanilla sweeper to get me out of a tight spot. At least Smokestack scales as the game progresses and can hit more vital resources than just creatures. If you have Tabernacle out, you're already in a good spot against creatures. If you have a sweeper, The Abyss seems superfluous. The card is good in ideal situations, but that can be said about any other card in the game. I'm not saying, "Don't run it," (actually, I am) - just think about it next time you play the card and see how much work it actually does.

    I don't think there is any utility land in particular that I'd want to make room for currently. I could be forgetting something. Did you have something in mind?
    You were running Alchemist's Refuge for a hot second. That seems like it could be randomly good, especially for surprise sweepers. Maybe Tower of the Magistrate? You don't want to dilute the amount of color-producing lands in the deck too much.

    You could also run a 0cc tutor package by adding Engineered Explosives to the Tormod's Crypt that is already in the deck. There have to be other good options for this, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

    I assume you've already added Mana Confluence.

    Mystical Teachings isn't a bad card; it's instant, card advantage and a tutor but it's far too slow making it worse than pretty much all of the expensive black tutors. Only being able to fetch out instants is really where it gets bad. There are too many important cards that you want to get that are non-instants.
    I haven't pulled the trigger on buying the pricier black tutors so I get to play with worse versions of the cards. That being said, Teachings has not disappointed yet and I've even managed to surprise a fair share of players who didn't realize I had access to a flashback-able, instant speed tutor.

  16. #36
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    M15/KTK Update:

    -Tolaria West
    -Arcane Sanctum
    -Thran Dynamo
    -Maelstrom Pulse
    -Jester's Cap

    +Island
    +Mana Confluence
    +Sylvan Library
    +Bant Charm
    +Collective Restraint

    The changes from the last two sets aren't too interesting, another City of Brass and that's mostly it. I like the instant speed of the charm, edging out Pulse. I'm trying Sylvan Library out again. Cap isn't important in my meta and Dynamo was unimpressive. I've wanted to play with Collective Restraint for awhile. It seems like a functional Moat most of the time and has good synergy with Maze and Tabernacle.

    Even though these last two sets aren't amazing for us there are a couple cool cards.

    Utter End: A (most of a) Vindicate at instant speed, definitely something I'd be willing to try out. Probably an upgrade over Pulse.

    Sultai Charm: This charm is reminiscent of Bant Charm which is a great thing. It's never dead because, hey, Catalog! My gut tells me it's not as good as Utter End though.

    Clever Impersonator: A Clone for every permanent! Now that's exciting. Metamorph is in over it because it can be cheaper, easier to tutor up and recur. Still, a strong contender for a slot.

    EDIT: Derp. I forgot about Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time as potential additions. Draw 3's are good as is digging deep for Moat and friends. Haven't tested but I do like them a lot in at first glance.
    Last edited by Amon Amarth; 10-02-2014 at 02:31 PM.
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  17. #37

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Amarth View Post
    M15/KTK Update:

    -Tolaria West
    -Arcane Sanctum
    -Thran Dynamo
    -Maelstrom Pulse
    -Jester's Cap

    +Island
    +Mana Confluence
    +Sylvan Library
    +Bant Charm
    +Collective Restraint

    The changes from the last two sets aren't too interesting, another City of Brass and that's mostly it. I like the instant speed of the charm, edging out Pulse. I'm trying Sylvan Library out again. Cap isn't important in my meta and Dynamo was unimpressive. I've wanted to play with Collective Restraint for awhile. It seems like a functional Moat most of the time and has good synergy with Maze and Tabernacle.

    Even though these last two sets aren't amazing for us there are a couple cool cards.

    Utter End: A (most of a) Vindicate at instant speed, definitely something I'd be willing to try out. Probably an upgrade over Pulse.

    Sultai Charm: This charm is reminiscent of Bant Charm which is a great thing. It's never dead because, hey, Catalog! My gut tells me it's not as good as Utter End though.

    Clever Impersonator: A Clone for every permanent! Now that's exciting. Metamorph is in over it because it can be cheaper, easier to tutor up and recur. Still, a strong contender for a slot.

    EDIT: Derp. I forgot about Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time as potential additions. Draw 3's are good as is digging deep for Moat and friends. Haven't tested but I do like them a lot in at first glance.
    I'm not sure if I agree with cutting Tolaria West. It's a second copy of Tabernacle, which can be huge in some matchups. Yes the "comes into play tapped" sucks, but we're extremely slow anyway, so I think it doesn't matter quite as much.

    I agree with all of your other cuts except for Maelstrom Pulse - it's almost another Vindicate which is more than good enough. I've also been seeing more clones running around, which makes Pulse even stronger. I've had good results and probably wouldn't cut it. I think I might remove Wrath of God instead as your other wrath effects offer more versatility or power.

    Utter End has been quite good so far for me. I nailed a Purphoros, God of the Forge in response to the Marath player playing his general which saved the table and bought me between two and three turns to establish control of the game. I'm almost always happy to see a Vindicate-variant in my hand at all points of the game, and one that I can play at instant speed is very nice.

    Treasure Cruise is probably worth playing, although cards in the graveyard can be useful, so it warrants testing. Late-game, it's obviously a bomb to allow us to refill our hand with answers.

  18. #38
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post
    I'm not sure if I agree with cutting Tolaria West. It's a second copy of Tabernacle, which can be huge in some matchups. Yes the "comes into play tapped" sucks, but we're extremely slow anyway, so I think it doesn't matter quite as much.

    I agree with all of your other cuts except for Maelstrom Pulse - it's almost another Vindicate which is more than good enough. I've also been seeing more clones running around, which makes Pulse even stronger. I've had good results and probably wouldn't cut it. I think I might remove Wrath of God instead as your other wrath effects offer more versatility or power.

    Utter End has been quite good so far for me. I nailed a Purphoros, God of the Forge in response to the Marath player playing his general which saved the table and bought me between two and three turns to establish control of the game. I'm almost always happy to see a Vindicate-variant in my hand at all points of the game, and one that I can play at instant speed is very nice.

    Treasure Cruise is probably worth playing, although cards in the graveyard can be useful, so it warrants testing. Late-game, it's obviously a bomb to allow us to refill our hand with answers.
    Hey, thanks for the input! (Edit: again, even! You da best!)

    I could definitely see running Tolaria West, again, instead of the second Island. Indeed, it is very good and I haven't the second Island really do anything other than coming into play untapped and makes me slightly more resistant to non-basic hate. I'll probably switch back.

    I like Bant Charm's additional modes over Pulse, not that I don't like Pulse; it is very good. I think more tuck is a more powerful effect than just nuking anything though I'm not 100% sure if that's always true. I don't think I want to drop Wrath of God because I like cheaper wraths and I have a beautiful Beta copy as well, making me not eager to give it up. :P Anyways, I still like Maelstrom Pulse and would like to fit it in or at the very least find a slot for Utter End, especially since you have had good results with it so far. Exiling, instant speed nearly-Vindicates are pretty great.

    I'm not sure which is better, Dig or Cruise. Cruise is better midgame but Dig is really, really good in the lategame. Dig-ing seven deep and at instant speed is awesome and it's like a FoF that always gives you the two best cards. There is a surprising amount of cards to test out from Khans. A good problem to have, I think. ^_^
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  19. #39

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Amarth View Post
    Hey, thanks for the input! (Edit: again, even! You da best!)
    No problem. This is, hands down, my favorite EDH deck. I was attempting to put together something like this before you posted this primer and I found myself agreeing with every card decision you made. It fills the void I was missing in my decks and approaches the game from such a different angle than the typical jam-ramp-spells-and-fatties-OMG!!!! Plus, when played correctly, it answers everything.

    I could definitely see running Tolaria West, again, instead of the second Island. Indeed, it is very good and I haven't the second Island really do anything other than coming into play untapped and makes me slightly more resistant to non-basic hate. I'll probably switch back.
    It's good opportunity cost and another tutor in a deck full of answers. Really, though, Tabernacle puts it over the top; you get to find the best wrath in the format.

    I like Bant Charm's additional modes over Pulse, not that I don't like Pulse; it is very good. I think more tuck is a more powerful effect than just nuking anything though I'm not 100% sure if that's always true. I don't think I want to drop Wrath of God because I like cheaper wraths and I have a beautiful Beta copy as well, making me not eager to give it up. :P Anyways, I still like Maelstrom Pulse and would like to fit it in or at the very least find a slot for Utter End, especially since you have had good results with it so far. Exiling, instant speed nearly-Vindicates are pretty great.
    I'm not saying cut Charm for Pulse. Just run them both. I cut Wrath a while back and I can't say that I have missed it. Generally, I don't play out wraths all that early, so I have not missed Wrath of God. Here's what I've been running:

    (Maze of Ith)
    Path to Exile
    Swords to Plowshares
    Unexpectedly Absent
    Abrupt Decay
    Maelstrom Pulse
    Vindicate
    Bant Charm
    Utter End

    (The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale)
    Austere Command
    Terminus
    Pernicious Deed
    Supreme Verdict
    Merciless Eviction
    Oblivion Stone

    Looking at that, I don't really feel the need for a generic Wrath. All of the sweepers, while they cost more, provide additional value over just sweeping the board. And Oblivion Stone can be recurred, which makes it highly dangerous.

    I'm not sure which is better, Dig or Cruise. Cruise is better midgame but Dig is really, really good in the lategame. Dig-ing seven deep and at instant speed is awesome and it's like a FoF that always gives you the two best cards. There is a surprising amount of cards to test out from Khans. A good problem to have, I think. ^_^
    I'd say that Treasure Cruise is immediately, obviously strong. Dig deserves testing, but it seems like a combo-enabler. The comparison to Fact or Fiction does make me think it's better than I originally thought, so I will definitely try it out.

    I had some other thoughts for cards to add. If you're having good luck with Phyrexian Metamorph, you could try Sculpting Steel and maybe even Copy Enchantment. I'm not immediately sure what value they provide, as they require you to have some sort of board state to be maximally effective, but they could be worth testing.

  20. #40
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post
    I'd say that Treasure Cruise is immediately, obviously strong. Dig deserves testing, but it seems like a combo-enabler. The comparison to Fact or Fiction does make me think it's better than I originally thought, so I will definitely try it out.

    I had some other thoughts for cards to add. If you're having good luck with Phyrexian Metamorph, you could try Sculpting Steel and maybe even Copy Enchantment. I'm not immediately sure what value they provide, as they require you to have some sort of board state to be maximally effective, but they could be worth testing.
    I'm unfortunately missing a bunch of the key cards to make a list like this one a reality, but I do have some experience with the cards you're discussing I'd like to share.

    I recently slotted Treasure Cruise into my (admittedly) more casual Lazav deck, and I've loved it so far. I've been finding that much like Goyf in constructed it just gets better as you play the game. I haven't managed to get it down to Ancestral Recall levels in terms of cost, but I routinely cast it for 2U, and have even been able to flash it back off of a Snapcaster.

    In terms of a list like this one that's full of bullets, Dig Through Time might be a worthy inclusion. It seems great in a situation where you really need to find a counterspell or wrath, as going 7 cards deep is a great way to get there.

    If Metamorph has been good for you, what about Clever Impersonator over Scuplting Steel or Copy Enchantment? It does cost one more mana, but paying 4 for a copy of the best non-land on the board seems like a much more versatile option than limiting yourself to just an artifact or just an enchantment. If Impersonator is too expensive CMC wise, surely Copy Artifact is better than Sculpting Steel? It's a blue card for force and costs 1 mana less.

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