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Thread: [EDH] Cromat

  1. #41

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Davran View Post
    In terms of a list like this one that's full of bullets, Dig Through Time might be a worthy inclusion. It seems great in a situation where you really need to find a counterspell or wrath, as going 7 cards deep is a great way to get there.
    The more I look at Dig Through Time, the better it seems. It ticks off all the boxes for a good draw spell: instant speed, digs deep, and it will generally cost between 3 and 5 mana to cast. I'm not sure why, but originally I didn't realize it could be cast at instant speed. Dig is essentially two Brainstorms stapled together and should be quite excellent mid- to late-game.

    If Metamorph has been good for you, what about Clever Impersonator over Scuplting Steel or Copy Enchantment? It does cost one more mana, but paying 4 for a copy of the best non-land on the board seems like a much more versatile option than limiting yourself to just an artifact or just an enchantment. If Impersonator is too expensive CMC wise, surely Copy Artifact is better than Sculpting Steel? It's a blue card for force and costs 1 mana less.
    Clever Impersonator is one of the best clones ever printed and it's blue which is good for Force of Will, but I've found that getting the most mileage out of your cards is the optimal way to play this deck. While Impersonator may give you additional options of what to clone, there are more tutors for Sculpting Steel and it can be repearedly recurred off Academy Ruins if necessary (why is there not a land like this for enchantments?!). I'm not sure what the best option is without testing, but that's my gut reaction. Also, artifacts tend to be the best target for a clone effect in this deck since many of our enchantments don't get better with more copies on the field.

  2. #42
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post
    The more I look at Dig Through Time, the better it seems. It ticks off all the boxes for a good draw spell: instant speed, digs deep, and it will generally cost between 3 and 5 mana to cast. I'm not sure why, but originally I didn't realize it could be cast at instant speed. Dig is essentially two Brainstorms stapled together and should be quite excellent mid- to late-game.
    Yeah, I've got a copy I'm trying to find room for in my Intet deck for exactly this reason. It does almost everything I want my draw spells to do, especially with otherwise useless fetchlands and random ramp spells to feed to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post
    Clever Impersonator is one of the best clones ever printed and it's blue which is good for Force of Will, but I've found that getting the most mileage out of your cards is the optimal way to play this deck. While Impersonator may give you additional options of what to clone, there are more tutors for Sculpting Steel and it can be repearedly recurred off Academy Ruins if necessary (why is there not a land like this for enchantments?!). I'm not sure what the best option is without testing, but that's my gut reaction. Also, artifacts tend to be the best target for a clone effect in this deck since many of our enchantments don't get better with more copies on the field.
    I didn't consider the Academy Ruins angle, that's a good point. I'd love a land like that for enchantments but ultimately I'm not sure how they'd swing it flavor-wise. Seems like a missed opportunity out of Theros block, though it would have probably been way too good in limited. The other thing to consider is the stuff in your meta that's worth copying. I mean, 2 Moats is kinda useless...but cloning some other guys Karn is probably a pretty nice feeling.

  3. #43

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    I played a pretty interesting game with Cromat over lunch and I thought I'd share. It highlights some of the unique ways the deck controls the game:

    The players were me on Cromat, the player to my left playing Marath, Will of the Wild, the person across from me on Child of Alara, and the person to my right playing Karn, Silver Golem.

    The Karn player went first and essentially dumped his hand first turn into... Howling Mine. I had to start pitching cards since most of my first few turns were, "Land, go," but I had Replenish in hand for late game shenanigans. I made a decision to hold Spell Crumple for Karn since he already had about half of the pieces to make infinite mana. The Marath player and the Child player developed their mana with Mine helping out quite a bit.

    Around turn 5, the Marath player attempted to run his general out onto the board with Purphoros, God of the Forge in play. I cast Utter End to get rid of the god and to buy myself a little time to set up. The Child player seemed to be running some sort of token themed deck and aimed an attack at the Marath player to stabilize the board. Karn kept dumping mana onto the board, but I was still holding countermagic, just in case.

    Child got pitched after a couple more turns to reset the board due to the Marath player having a ton of goodies like Doubling Season, Mana Reflection, and Martyr's Bond. I took advantage of the clear board to run out Door to Nothingness. The Karn player attempted to get cute with Spine of Ish Sah, but I burned the Spell Crumple to be able to untap with Door and enough mana to use it.

    You'd think that having an active Door would make me a huge target, but the other players actually started pounding each other in order to avoid being put out of the game. The Marath player eventually launched a huge attack (involving Craterhoof Behemoth) at both the Child player and the Karn player. The Child player played four or five removal spells to save himself and we all watched the Karn player eat about 150 damage. The Marath player attempted to resolve Goblin Bombardment and I Door-ed in response, taking enough damage from Marath's ability in response to put me at 14 life. The Child player attempted to enter combat to finish me off, but I shuffled a Terminus to the top and miracled to save myself.

    I recurred Door with Academy Ruins and played it back out, holding both Cryptic Command and Force of Will in hand. The remaining opponent attempted to Oblivion Ring the Door, but I countered with Cryptic. He countered back, which I stopped with the Force. Door finished him off the following turn when I untapped.

    It was pretty fun. I'm pretty surprised how the other players reacted to the Door to Nothingness, although maybe they all assumed they could take out another player and then deal with it. I never felt like the game was very far out of my control even though my board state was usually just a bunch of lands with a full grip of cards. The removal was definitely key as it allowed me to interact with almost every zone of play and make smart decisions that would keep me in the game.

  4. #44
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Thanks for the replies guys! Still wondering how I'm going to fit in TC and Dig in this deck. Probably cutting a sweeper of some sort and something else. If I only had room for one of the delve spells it would probably be Dig since it digs (zing!) deep and instant speed can offset the high casting cost.

    Clever Impersonator is good but for the reasons already mentioned I prefer Metamorph. Impersonator does get better, though, if your meta has a lot of PW decks and/or decks with lots of enchantments to copy.

    @Baumeister

    Door seems to have a funny effect on people. Sometimes it makes them target you before you can untap, some people try diplomacy and want you to take out the strongest player on the table. Your games are pretty similar to how most of mine play out. The board can change a lot but due to the flexibility of our cards it allows us to react and play politically as well. The games tend to be fun and skill intensive and just a little nerve-wracking. :)

    Looking at the new Commander 2014 cards nothing jumps out at me as being playable, for us, except for Malicious Affliction. It shouldn't be difficult to trigger morbid when things are dying all the time. Probably too narrow but something to consider. I really like the design of the card. The decks themselves are awesome and the best Commander product released so far. Really excited to jam some the stock decks against each other.
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  5. #45

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Amarth View Post
    The games tend to be fun and skill intensive and just a little nerve-wracking. :)
    Yup. A lot of my wins feel dangerously close to loses, although, a lot of my loses feel like they could have been wins if I had read the board more carefully and adjusted my line of play.

    I think I cut a removal spell for Dig Through Time. I've only drawn it a couple of times, but it feels powerful and it fits right into the theme of the deck as I've never had to tap out on my turn to cast it. It's also fantastic at digging for answers in a pinch. I haven't been able to find a spot for Treasure Cruise yet as it's not as flexible as Dig. It would require that I cut an answer to something, and I'm not sure what that is. The deck plays really well for me right now, so I'll probably just leave it and get a dozen or so more games in before I figure out what the weakest slot is.

    By the way, good call on Collective Restraint. It's so easy to power that card up and nobody wants to pay 5 to attack through it. It's bought me between 3 and 10 turns to sit and turtle every time I've landed it.

    Any thoughts on Council's Judgment? It will usually hit the two most problematic permanents on the board (that aren't yours). Sorcery speed is rough, but it's a two-for-one in a deck that thrives on value.

  6. #46
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post
    Yup. A lot of my wins feel dangerously close to loses, although, a lot of my loses feel like they could have been wins if I had read the board more carefully and adjusted my line of play.

    I think I cut a removal spell for Dig Through Time. I've only drawn it a couple of times, but it feels powerful and it fits right into the theme of the deck as I've never had to tap out on my turn to cast it. It's also fantastic at digging for answers in a pinch. I haven't been able to find a spot for Treasure Cruise yet as it's not as flexible as Dig. It would require that I cut an answer to something, and I'm not sure what that is. The deck plays really well for me right now, so I'll probably just leave it and get a dozen or so more games in before I figure out what the weakest slot is.

    By the way, good call on Collective Restraint. It's so easy to power that card up and nobody wants to pay 5 to attack through it. It's bought me between 3 and 10 turns to sit and turtle every time I've landed it.

    Any thoughts on Council's Judgment? It will usually hit the two most problematic permanents on the board (that aren't yours). Sorcery speed is rough, but it's a two-for-one in a deck that thrives on value.
    Yeah, that's typically how I cut cards: play a ton of games and then maybe make a decision. There are so many moving parts in the deck that it's hard to pinpoint what is currently working and what is not.

    Restraint has been pretty damn good to me so far. There are occasions where you're getting swarmed by tokens or multiple dorks and Humility isn't enough. Better yet, that damage often goes somewhere else: it encourages your opponents to wear each other down.

    Council's Judgment is great. The only reason I'm not playing it is I'm paranoid of collusion/politics against me and it doesn't hit what I want. It doesn't help there are infinite, excellent spot removal cards that I need to test out as well. An embarrassment of riches.
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  7. #47

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Amarth View Post
    Restraint has been pretty damn good to me so far. There are occasions where you're getting swarmed by tokens or multiple dorks and Humility isn't enough. Better yet, that damage often goes somewhere else: it encourages your opponents to wear each other down.
    I'm definitely putting it in the Core Cards pile. It's funny that all of the haymaker enchantments in the deck are from Legends or Invasion. It seems like it took Wizards a while to understand how powerful global effects are when they scale to multiplayer games...

    Council's Judgment is great. The only reason I'm not playing it is I'm paranoid of collusion/politics against me and it doesn't hit what I want. It doesn't help there are infinite, excellent spot removal cards that I need to test out as well. An embarrassment of riches.
    Those are fair points. It's an interesting card because it's often worse when you are ahead on board (does that make it win-less?). It's a good sign when we have to cut cards not because they're bad, but because they aren't as good as Card X or Card Y.

    I noticed you're still playing Phyrexian Metamorph. How has it been holding up? Do you tutor for it often? What's your favorite target when you play it? Do you find yourself copying other players' creatures very often?

  8. #48

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Hello! It's been a while. Glad to see that you are still updating the deck list in this thread.

    Have you considered the following cards? I'm interested to read your thoughts on them.


    Monastery Siege

    Pick the best of the top two cards and/or fill up your graveyard for other interactions.


    Thassa, God of the Sea

    Thassa is almost never going to be a creature in this deck, so it's all about the indestructable scrying.

  9. #49

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Petracca View Post
    Monastery Siege

    Pick the best of the top two cards and/or fill up your graveyard for other interactions.


    Thassa, God of the Sea

    Thassa is almost never going to be a creature in this deck, so it's all about the indestructable scrying.
    While these cards are both solid, they suffer most from not being able to operate at instant speed. Monastery Siege digs you deeper, but competes with the slots for Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora, both of which will draw more cards in a shorter amount of time. It also has almost no immediate impact on the board and requires that you tap mana on your turn for a mediocre effect.

    Thassa, God of the Sea is extremely slow and, while difficult to remove, doesn't really affect the board in a significant way. Yes, scrying at your upkeep is nice as a passive ability, but it would be infinitely more playable if it cost and was an artifact. Her second ability does almost nothing for us outside of corner-case, Plan F win condition strategies of making Cromat unblockable.

    What you are looking for is a bomb to dig deep into your deck to find answers. Dig Through Time is phenomenal. Future Sight is the high water mark. I was playing Treasure Cruise for a while, but it's not an instant and only (I know, only...) digs three deep so I'm trying out Stroke of Genius again because I often found myself with mana leftover right before my turn came back around. Plus, it gets quite absurd late game and actually has the possibility of being a win-condition in slow, grindy, four hour games.

  10. #50
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post
    While these cards are both solid, they suffer most from not being able to operate at instant speed. Monastery Siege digs you deeper, but competes with the slots for Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora, both of which will draw more cards in a shorter amount of time. It also has almost no immediate impact on the board and requires that you tap mana on your turn for a mediocre effect.

    Thassa, God of the Sea is extremely slow and, while difficult to remove, doesn't really affect the board in a significant way. Yes, scrying at your upkeep is nice as a passive ability, but it would be infinitely more playable if it cost and was an artifact. Her second ability does almost nothing for us outside of corner-case, Plan F win condition strategies of making Cromat unblockable.

    What you are looking for is a bomb to dig deep into your deck to find answers. Dig Through Time is phenomenal. Future Sight is the high water mark. I was playing Treasure Cruise for a while, but it's not an instant and only (I know, only...) digs three deep so I'm trying out Stroke of Genius again because I often found myself with mana leftover right before my turn came back around. Plus, it gets quite absurd late game and actually has the possibility of being a win-condition in slow, grindy, four hour games.
    I've been meaning to post here again with an update but now I'll have to change things up quite a bit with tuck losing most of it's functionality. Thanks for posting I'll try and get back and update this thing when I get time again. Kinda excited and annoyed at the same time. New slots opened up but also cutting cards I really like. Thems the breaks!
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  11. #51

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Amarth View Post
    I've been meaning to post here again with an update but now I'll have to change things up quite a bit with tuck losing most of it's functionality. Thanks for posting I'll try and get back and update this thing when I get time again. Kinda excited and annoyed at the same time. New slots opened up but also cutting cards I really like. Thems the breaks!
    Indeed, there are a ton of cards I want to play but can't. I am very curious to see what you've cut and added to the deck over the last few blocks.

    I will say that some of the tuck cards we run like Terminus and Bant Charm are still pretty useful for dodging graveyard shenanigans. The new ruling probably makes Hinder and Spell Crumple not quite powerful enough at 3 mana, though. I'll probably swap those for better countermagic.

  12. #52
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Dragons of Tarkir Update:

    -1 Hinder
    -1 Island
    -1 Dig Through Time

    +1 Dissipate
    +1 Tolaria West
    +1 Hedonist's Trove

    The nerf to tuck has made the mechanic significantly worse in EDH. All the tuck counterspells are much worse now. Dissipate is just better now than it's tuck equivalents. The Island was never important so the Transmute land is just much better. Dig was OK but you could rarely cast it early and Trove just does so much and is castable around the same time Dig normally is too. It is one part card advantage engine, one part GY hate and one part wincon. It is basically a fixed, improved Yawgmoth's Agenda where you don't have any restraints on what you can cast.

    Dragons of Tarkir also had some interesting planeswalkers that I wanted to try out but I don't have the space.

    Narset Transcendent: The plus ability hits 60% of the deck and the -2 is similarly good. Even rebounding a Wrath is basically a Time walk. That's pretty good. It gets much better when you can Rebound tutor effects, draw spells or even just spot removal. Starts off with with a decent amount of loyalty, has synergy with Top, Jace, BS and has a gamebreaking ultimate.

    Sarkhan Unbroken: This guy is a far cry from his previous versions. For starters, he's actually good. Card advantage and produces mana, for a plus ability, that's crazy. The minus makes a 4/4 Dragon, good for defense or offense. This guy is good.

    I'll also update the opening post soon (TM).
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  13. #53

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Amarth View Post
    The nerf to tuck has made the mechanic significantly worse in EDH. All the tuck counterspells are much worse now. Dissipate is just better now than it's tuck equivalents. The Island was never important so the Transmute land is just much better.
    I agree with both of these changes. Why does Spell Crumple get to stay in the deck? Are there better counters we could run now - perhaps something like Swan Song that costs less?

    Dig was OK but you could rarely cast it early and Trove just does so much and is castable around the same time Dig normally is too. It is one part card advantage engine, one part GY hate and one part wincon. It is basically a fixed, improved Yawgmoth's Agenda where you don't have any restraints on what you can cast.
    This honestly surprises me especially because Trove was never even on my radar as viable for this deck. I'll test it out, but I have reservations; namely: 1) It's expensive enough that resolving and using it in the same turn is only viable extremely late game; 2) If it gets blown up before you can generate value, you just paid 7 for a Tormod's Crypt; 3) You cannot target your own graveyard so you are dependent on another player having enough good stuff to make this card worthwhile. But I don't know how it will play, so I'll try it out first.

    Narset Transcendent: The plus ability hits 60% of the deck and the -2 is similarly good. Even rebounding a Wrath is basically a Time walk. That's pretty good. It gets much better when you can Rebound tutor effects, draw spells or even just spot removal. Starts off with with a decent amount of loyalty, has synergy with Top, Jace, BS and has a gamebreaking ultimate.
    This planeswalker seems extremely synergistic with the deck and I'd rather play her over the Trove. She's not quite as good as the other planeswalkers we have because she requires other cards to function, but she generates crazy card advantage with both the plus and minus ability and, like you said, can function as a soft time walk a good portion of the time.

    I look forward to seeing the updated list.

  14. #54
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Spell Crumple is going to get replaced by another counter or Merchant Scroll. It's probably just worse than Faerie Trickery now. Such a big downgrade with the recent changes. Swan Song is good but the drawback might be too harsh if they decide to just swing at us. I think I'd rather play Negate

    Trove: When you cast it the very least you will get is a land of some sort before it get's blown up. You do bring up a good point though, it does require some setup but I feel that is accomplished by this decks strategy and just the natural progression of the game. Also, you can cast instants and cards with Flash each turn as well. Plus you can steal things like Seedborn Muse which would be hilarious. I'm cautiously optimistic.

    Narset: I like her a lot but she does require, I think, other cards to make her good. Fortunately, those other cards are also good and we're playing a lot of them. I'd like to try her out sometime.

    I'll update the opening post this weekend. I'm also changing up the format a bit to make it a bit broader and not focused on specific cards.
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  15. #55

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    I got to test out Narset Transcendent yesterday and it turned out to be a pretty interesting game. I feel like she's fairly powerful, but it'll probably require more testing. Here's what happened:

    I got a pretty quick start with Sol Ring and no missed land drops. Just before my turn three, I cast Intuition for Humility, Collective Restraint, and Stranglehold with Replenish in hand. Restraint was sent to my hand and I recurred the other two on my turn three to soft lock the board. Narset came down next turn and generated card advantage by dumping cards into my hand (I think it actually helped for the other players to see the cards as they played much more timidly when they knew I could kill their stuff). The combination of Humility, Stranglehold, and Collective Restraint on board allowed me to slowly grind up to Narset's ultimate which essentially hard locked the board until I was able to find Door to Nothingness and kill the table.

    Looking back, I probably was quite lucky as I tapped out a couple of turns in a row with some must-answer cards in play, but the table seemed answer light so I went for it. Narset proved to be very valuable and helped close up the game, but I'm not sure it will always be like that. She plays a little like Jace, but her CA adds counters which is nice. I never used the rebound ability, but I could see where it would be good if you were behind on board. I think when you play her, the goal should always be to tick up to that ultimate because it is so good. This probably makes her a bit weaker than the other planeswalkers since getting to that ultimate can prove difficult. I'll definitely keep her in the deck for the time being.

    @Amon: I never saw you post your updated list. Any thoughts on recent changes to the list?

  16. #56

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Just a couple of notes and thoughts.

    Monastery Siege

    I've been testing this out and I like it. I realize that this sounds crazy, but I swapped it in for Phyrexian Arena.

    I'm not having issues casting Phyrexian Arena, but Monastery Siege is blue for FOW, lets me throw things into the graveyard, doesn't cost me life, and is easier to cast early.

    I don't have a problem getting cards - or even the right cards - with this deck. It's all about setting up lines of play and grinding out value.

    Mirri's Guile

    With all of the fetch lands, this is another great card selection engine. I'm not saying that I would play Mirri's Guile over Sensei's Divining Top, but the effect is very similar without the additional mana cost to activate each turn.

    Supreme Verdict

    This might as well be Day of Judgment. I can't think of the last time that being uncounterable mattered in a real game, and Day of Judgment is easier to cast.

    Hallowed Burial/Terminus

    The tuck sweepers aren't nearly as potent as they were before the rule change. Toxic Deluge might be better here. It is slightly easier to cast, comes online sooner, and can still handle indestructible creatures.

    RAMP

    Nature's Lore and Three Visits both come online sooner than the artifact ramp and put a dual land into play untapped. I rarely have issues with casting costs. The mana base is solid.

    These cards make Collective Restraint and Global Ruin better, sooner.

    Farseek and Explore are similarly worth considering.

    It looks like there are only a few of us who actively play a deck like this, so I appreciate you guys taking the time to consider these posts and respond.

  17. #57
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    OK, so I finally updated the opening post. Secondly, my only change recently has been to add Personal Tutor in place of Hedonist's Trove. Not sure how I've missed that card for so long. It gets you Loam early, wraths midgame and Will, Global Ruin and Replenish late.

    @Eric:

    I'm not a fan of filtering but Monastery Siege is certainly playable. Not losing life is nice too.

    Not a fan of Guile but mostly because I'm not looking for another Top/Library effect.

    What wraths you run are personal preference or metagame considerations though I can't really see myself playing Deluge. I'd rather pay the extra mana for WoG and I never see indestructible dudes.

    I do like the green ramp spells and I've been wanting to test them for awhile. I do like Farseek and Skyshroud Claim.

    @Baumeister: I don't think you got lucky, that's a brutal opening that would be difficult to come back from, Narset or no. They probably couldn't do anything at all so it's hard to gauge Narsets worth in the situation though I do agree with your assessment of her strength. I don't have one yet but her price is trending downward so I'll pick up a copy soon-ish.
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  18. #58

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Amarth View Post
    OK, so I finally updated the opening post. Secondly, my only change recently has been to add Personal Tutor in place of Hedonist's Trove. Not sure how I've missed that card for so long. It gets you Loam early, wraths midgame and Will, Global Ruin and Replenish late.
    Personal Tutor seems kind of slow and narrow. At least with Mystical Tutor you can fetch at the end of an opponent's turn and find an instant or a sorcery. I'll try it out but I generally reserve slow tutors like that for finding win conditions.

    I do like the green ramp spells and I've been wanting to test them for awhile. I do like Farseek and Skyshroud Claim.
    This. I have been wanting to change the ramp package for a while, but I really didn't have a good idea what to do with it. The functional CMC on these green ramp spells like Nature's Lore and Three Visits is quite low and they find your duals (albeit, the green ones). I'm probably going to run a ramp package like this for the time being:

    Exploration
    Nature's Lore
    Three Visits
    Skyshroud Claim
    Sol Ring
    Chromatic Lantern
    Coalition Relic
    Gilded Lotus

    It's compact, powerful, and none of these cards are really dead at any point in the game. Exploration is probably weakest late game, but that card is so absurd with Future Sight that it probably is worth it.

    @Baumeister: I don't think you got lucky, that's a brutal opening that would be difficult to come back from, Narset or no. They probably couldn't do anything at all so it's hard to gauge Narsets worth in the situation though I do agree with your assessment of her strength. I don't have one yet but her price is trending downward so I'll pick up a copy soon-ish.
    Yeah, that game was pretty awesome. It was probably the quickest I've killed the table with this deck. Narset requires more testing but so far has been pretty good for me. Not bonkers, but she provides a good deal of value.

    I've been having issues with Door to Nothingness as the only kill in the deck. After people wise up to it, they will generally hold removal and jam as much as they can through my counter wall. The card is just so freaking slow. I saw in the primer on the first page that you suggested the Thopter-Sword package as an alternative win. This seems pretty interesting as it's much less mana intensive and gives you both life and a board presence. Any advice? Did you ever try this out in the deck?

  19. #59

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post

    I've been having issues with Door to Nothingness as the only kill in the deck. After people wise up to it, they will generally hold removal and jam as much as they can through my counter wall. The card is just so freaking slow. I saw in the primer on the first page that you suggested the Thopter-Sword package as an alternative win. This seems pretty interesting as it's much less mana intensive and gives you both life and a board presence. Any advice? Did you ever try this out in the deck?
    I've had the same experience with Door. It's is a one-card win condition, but I've been caught before by someone removing it from the game. Eating a Bojuka Bog at the wrong time sucks.

    I used Thopter/Sword for a while. It's two cards, so you already have to give something up to run it. Each half doesn't do much on its own. And even if you pump out 7 or 8 thopters per turn, it can take a while to close out the game.

    Compare this to Assemble the Legion where as long as the game drags on, you will spit out more and more hasty tokens for no additional cost. You can leave up mana for counters and removal. The tokens don't fly, but under a Humility is doesn't matter anyway.

    Or, consider Luminarch Ascension. It's relatively easy to find and cast early with some protection. Pumping out a swarm of angels will usually get the job done.

    There's Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood. It's also two cards, but it closes out the game when it triggers.

    I have an Esper build of this deck that closes out the game with Test of Endurance. (It's more resilient and much faster, but it's not nearly as cool as the 5c deck.)

    Planeswalkers
    FWIW, the more I play this deck, the more I feel like we don't "need" quite so many tutors to get the job done. Planeswalkers are very powerful. Even running something like Elspeth, Sun's Champion gives us an alternative win condition. You make tokens. You ult. You fly over. Sarkhan Unbroken is no joke, either. You draw cards. You make Dragons. You beat down.

    Dack Fayden, Liliana of the Veil, and others are value engines that work really well in the slow, controlling shell we are using for this deck.

  20. #60

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Petracca View Post
    I've had the same experience with Door. It's is a one-card win condition, but I've been caught before by someone removing it from the game. Eating a Bojuka Bog at the wrong time sucks.
    It's good to hear this from someone else. I love Door-ing people out of the game, but it requires so much protection to successfully run it that I almost wouldn't consider it a one-card kill. Realistically, you need to protect it for three of your opponents' turns, untap, pay 10 mana, and then find a way to recur it to kill more than one person. I'll have to test to see if there's a way I can play differently with the card.

    I used Thopter/Sword for a while. It's two cards, so you already have to give something up to run it. Each half doesn't do much on its own. And even if you pump out 7 or 8 thopters per turn, it can take a while to close out the game.

    Compare this to Assemble the Legion where as long as the game drags on, you will spit out more and more hasty tokens for no additional cost. You can leave up mana for counters and removal. The tokens don't fly, but under a Humility is doesn't matter anyway.

    Or, consider Luminarch Ascension. It's relatively easy to find and cast early with some protection. Pumping out a swarm of angels will usually get the job done.
    These two cards are pretty interesting. I'm glad you've also thought about alternate win conditions. AtL is kind of exciting so I think I will test.

    FWIW, the more I play this deck, the more I feel like we don't "need" quite so many tutors to get the job done. Planeswalkers are very powerful. Even running something like Elspeth, Sun's Champion gives us an alternative win condition. You make tokens. You ult. You fly over. Sarkhan Unbroken is no joke, either. You draw cards. You make Dragons. You beat down.
    I think the new Sarkhan is pretty cool. He seems like a slightly better Garruk Wildspeaker. I've trimmed down the tutor package a bit to just run the most flexible and powerful versions. I have supplemented with draw engines, though. I feel like we run so many copies of similar cards that the tutors should be used to find our bombs. I'd rather have a card that generates card advantage over several turns in order to keep my hand stocked.

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