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Thread: [EDH] Cromat

  1. #61

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    I apologize in advance for the double post, but it's been a while since anyone posted here and I have relevant information for the thread.

    I've been testing alternate win conditions for the deck to see if there was a way to make it more resilient. This included Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek, additional planewalkers to give the deck more of a super friends vibe, and, lastly, Assemble the Legion. Thopter/Sword was kind of a bust. The parts do nothing on their own and it forces the deck to win with creatures which is pretty contrary to the bombs you want in play. It also takes two slots in the deck list. Assemble the Legion is probably better than Thopter/Sword because it's an enchantment and has synergy with Replenish (how did this card make it through R&D?), but it's extremely slow and suffers from producing creatures.

    The planeswalker plan worked out pretty well because they are permanents that are difficult to deal with and have synergy with the sweepers and lock pieces we are playing. I tested Sarkhan Unbroken, Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, Vraska the Unseen, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Narset Transcendent, Ajani Vengeant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury, Garruk, Apex Predator, Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, and Tezzeret the Seeker. The ones that played best with the deck were at the 4 or 5 CMC point and interfered with the board in some way. Ugin was quite good - I will most likely add him to the deck as another sweeper/source of spot removal. Narset has continued to test well, although she needs slight support. Ajani was interesting because he could control the board, provided life gain (somewhat important), and his ultimate always shut a player out of the game. Both versions of Sarkhan were okay with Unbroken being better although the ultimate was completely useless. The card draw and additional mana was good, I just wish he cost 1RUG instead of 2RUG. The planeswalkers that made tokens were not great because this deck hates creatures. Tezzeret was sadly lacking. I mostly used him to tutor for Crucible of Worlds.

    I'm not suggesting the deck become a super friends deck because it would lose flexibility, but the planewalkers add a lot to the deck and fit with our theme. I'd say Ugin, Narset, and something that provides support like Ajani need to find their way into the deck.

    I have been vigorously testing Cromat for almost a month now to figure out how to take it to the next level and I feel like I have reached a moment of clarity or something cliche like that. The deck is substantially different than many other EDH decks because it not so much lacks a game plan, but the game plan is highly dependent on what your opponents are doing. I thought the deck needed card advantage, however; that's not exactly the case. The deck actually thrives on turn advantage. I played a game recently where I managed to get Exploration and Crucible of Worlds into play on turn two with a fetch land and proceeded to generate so many extra "turns" that I ran away with the game.

    I've been so fixated lately on trying to make the deck win that I forgot that really isn't important with Keeper. While other players will try to generate board or card advantage, we should strive to generate turn advantage. The goal is to find a line that will generate some many extra "turns" that your opponents will not be able to keep up with you. This can be accomplished through mana advantage, sweepers to set your opponents back on turns, lock pieces to restrict mana advantage, and disruption to dismantle game plans. Door to Nothingness is a perfect win condition because by the time you play it, the winning portion of the game should be incidental.

    I think the changes to this deck should be to find ways to "out-turn" our opponents by setting up advantage engines. That's my next testing phase.

    How great would Balance be in this deck?

  2. #62

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post

    <snip>

    I think the changes to this deck should be to find ways to "out-turn" our opponents by setting up advantage engines. That's my next testing phase.

    How great would Balance be in this deck?
    Keep the posts coming!

    Like I said before, we travel in a pretty small circle. I've searched the web for 5c control EDH decks, and while there are some, I haven't found anything like what we are doing here. Due to a combination of cost to build, experience to understand, and difficulty to play, it's not surprising. There also might not be that many people who like to play slow control. It's not flashy.

    It is, however, the $5,000 solution.

    New cards are being spoiled for Origins, but we are using some of the best, most efficient, cards ever printed in this deck. It's a tall hill to climb to make it in.

    That said...

    Planeswalkers are flexible and efficient. They do several things, but take up only one card slot. And they don't require an ongoing infusion of mana each turn to gain incremental value. For a deck that plays the long game, the walkers are very powerful.

    Ugin is a beating.

    But so is Bolas.

    And yes, Balance would be awesome to run here!

    How awesome would it be to play our decks against /each other/? Woah. I got a chill.

  3. #63
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Petracca View Post
    Like I said before, we travel in a pretty small circle. I've searched the web for 5c control EDH decks, and while there are some, I haven't found anything like what we are doing here. Due to a combination of cost to build, experience to understand, and difficulty to play, it's not surprising. There also might not be that many people who like to play slow control. It's not flashy.

    It is, however, the $5,000 solution.
    I've been lurking on this thread forever for exactly this reason. The deck interests me highly as a veteran player, but my collection (and wallet) aren't deep enough to support it.

  4. #64

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Petracca View Post
    It is, however, the $5,000 solution.
    I didn't realize how much the price of this monstrosity has jumped in the last year-and-a-half. I bought into it when I knew someone who was selling their collection, so I only had to pay a fraction of what I probably should have. It is kind of nice to know that very few people will/can build this deck. Keeper was challenging to play in Vintage against one person; I never thought it could be made more difficult.

    Davran, if you really want to build the deck it's probably a lot more within reach than you think. A lot of EDH playgroups are very tolerant of proxies as well - we have a 10 proxy limit per deck as long as they are high-quality with the actual printed oracle text within easy reach. I don't want to presume to tell you how to play or collect, but this deck literally brought me back from quitting Magic altogether. It's that much fun to play in a format where every game can become ramp->Prophet of Kruphix->Consecrated Sphinx->WINNNN!!

    Planeswalkers are flexible and efficient. They do several things, but take up only one card slot. And they don't require an ongoing infusion of mana each turn to gain incremental value. For a deck that plays the long game, the walkers are very powerful.
    This is pretty much my line of thinking at the moment. My 'walker package is:

    Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    Narset Transcendent
    Ajani Vengeant
    Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
    Karn Liberated
    Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

    I've been taking a hard look at Ajani whenever I play him but so far, he's been fairly solid. His +1 will lock down mana artifacts, utility creatures, lands, and Eldrazi while the -2 gains life which is usually relevant. Three life is three more fetch lands I can play. The ultimate is rude and ridiculous. It does allow for me to focus attention on the rest of the table so it makes my spells a little more powerful.

    Let's keep this thread alive. This deck is the most interesting Magic deck I have and, like you said, there is nowhere else on the internet that it exists. What cards have you been trying? What synergies have you found with the deck? Is there any card you would want printed for the deck that doesn't exist? I don't know, but if we can keep this at the top of the EDH page, we can probably get more feedback to make the deck tighter.

  5. #65

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post

    What cards have you been trying? What synergies have you found with the deck?
    I'd have to take another look at my deck, but the one card I've been testing that comes to mind is Rings of Brighthearth in the Phyrexian Metamorph slot.

    Rings is great.

    It puts you way ahead on fetch land activations and gets better with the more planeswalkers you run.

    You talked about a game where you had an early Exploration+Crucible? It's like that. If you get Rings+Crucible or Rings+Life from the Loam, you can ramp with your fetches. This gets out of hand quickly.

  6. #66
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post
    Davran, if you really want to build the deck it's probably a lot more within reach than you think. A lot of EDH playgroups are very tolerant of proxies as well - we have a 10 proxy limit per deck as long as they are high-quality with the actual printed oracle text within easy reach. I don't want to presume to tell you how to play or collect, but this deck literally brought me back from quitting Magic altogether. It's that much fun to play in a format where every game can become ramp->Prophet of Kruphix->Consecrated Sphinx->WINNNN!!
    Call me weird or whatever, but proxies really bother me outside of play testing. I totally get that Moat is an expensive magic card, and speaking as someone who doesn't currently own one and wants to that definitely sucks...but printing one off and sticking it to a basic land just feels like cheating to me. Having spent my hard earned cash and/or trade fodder on the high dollar staples I do own it sort of feels bad to have some guy roll up with his "$5,000 solution" that's actually about $1.50 worth of printer paper and a little arts and crafts time. To me, it ignores the "collectible" part of the game when you start skimping on the collecting and just run whatever the hell you want to, physical cardboard be damned.

    To get back on topic - is Myth Realized a thing this deck might want? I count zero creature spells in the OP at a quick glance, so it seems like a relatively reliable game ending creature with very little effort expended. Also, it's a nice mana sink if you don't end up blowing that counter mana, dodges The Abyss (and maybe Humility? Yay layers!), and any random Wrath of God effects.

  7. #67

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Davran View Post
    Call me weird or whatever, but proxies really bother me outside of play testing. I totally get that Moat is an expensive magic card, and speaking as someone who doesn't currently own one and wants to that definitely sucks...but printing one off and sticking it to a basic land just feels like cheating to me. Having spent my hard earned cash and/or trade fodder on the high dollar staples I do own it sort of feels bad to have some guy roll up with his "$5,000 solution" that's actually about $1.50 worth of printer paper and a little arts and crafts time. To me, it ignores the "collectible" part of the game when you start skimping on the collecting and just run whatever the hell you want to, physical cardboard be damned.
    I think that's a fair assessment. It's actually interesting enough as a topic that it could be its own thread.

    To get back on topic - is Myth Realized a thing this deck might want? I count zero creature spells in the OP at a quick glance, so it seems like a relatively reliable game ending creature with very little effort expended. Also, it's a nice mana sink if you don't end up blowing that counter mana, dodges The Abyss (and maybe Humility? Yay layers!), and any random Wrath of God effects.
    Layers:

    1 Copy Effects: Any effect which would copy values onto the object you’re evaluating. If you can spot the word ‘Copy’ in the ability/spell text, then it’s fairly safe to say that the effect needs to live here.

    2 Control-Changing Effects: Any effect which would change the controller of the object you’re evaluating. Any ability or spell that generates this type of effect should contain the word ‘Control.’

    3 Text-Changing Effects: Any effect which would change the text of the object you’re evaluating. To be included in this layer, the effect has to specifically state that it’s changing text. Effects such as “Target creature loses all abilities” should be placed in Layer 6.

    4 Type-Changing Effects: Any effect which would add, change or remove types, subtypes or supertypes from the object you’re evaluating. These should be easy to spot, but they’re often thrown in as part of a larger ability.

    5 Color Changing Effects: Any effect which would add, change or remove color from the object you’re evaluating.

    6 Ability Adding or Removing Effects: Any effect which would add or remove abilities to an object you’re evaluating. (Humility goes here along with Myth Realized)

    7A Effects from Power/Toughness affecting CDAs: All P/T CDAs. Other CDAs just apply first in their relevant layer.

    7B Any Power/Toughness setting effects: All P/T effects that set either P/T or both to a specific number or value. (Humility sets P/T in this layer, but so does Myth Realized)

    7C Any Power/Toughness changing effect that doesn’t set: This covers all effects that modify Power/Toughness so long as they don’t set P/T to a specific value.

    7D P/T changes from Counters: Any counters that affect P/T.

    7E Effects that switch P/T: Any effect that switches power & toughness.

    I think the card would function based off time stamp order and since you activate Myth Realized after both permanents are in play, the Myth "wins" because it's the most recent. I think it functions like Man-Lands under Humility.

    @Eric: Rings of Brighthearth is definitely interesting so I'll test it and let you know

  8. #68

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Davran View Post
    Is Myth Realized a thing this deck might want? I count zero creature spells in the OP at a quick glance, so it seems like a relatively reliable game ending creature with very little effort expended. Also, it's a nice mana sink if you don't end up blowing that counter mana, dodges The Abyss (and maybe Humility? Yay layers!), and any random Wrath of God effects.
    Every slot in this deck is precious. If I was going to evaluate Myth Realized, without actually testing it, my thought process would be to compare it to what other cards we have available.

    Myth Realized, in this deck, would be a finisher. That's its job. We use it to close out the game. So, it's competing with Door to Nothingness directly and some of the planeswalkers indirectly. That's tough competition.

    The other thing I would compare it to is what other cards are available if I wanted a similar card in that slot. In other words, what other finishers do I have access to?

    Luminarch Ascension is an enchantment, like Myth Realized. But, if I can protect it (and myself) for a few turns, I can pump out a squadron of flying 4/4 angel tokens. They can kill my angels, but the enchantment sits around to spit out more of them. Myth Realized is vulnerable to creature removal when activated.

    Another comparison might be a card like Helix Pinnacle. It's a low-cost enchantment that outright wins the game if the condition is met. It might take a dozen turns to meet that condition in the end game, but it just wins. Compare this to Myth Realized where I have to make it big, and activate it, protect it, attack, get damage through, and hope my opponent doesn't have a ton of life or some other way to nullify a non-flying creature. My own Moat is a problem.

    You rock! Keep the suggestions coming. I'm not saying Myth Realized is bad. It just has a high bar to clear to make it in a card pool this big.

  9. #69
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post
    I think the card would function based off time stamp order and since you activate Myth Realized after both permanents are in play, the Myth "wins" because it's the most recent. I think it functions like Man-Lands under Humility.
    Yeah, that's what I thought too, but I wasn't 100% positive about it.

    **EDIT: @ Eric Petracca - Makes sense, though as a control deck I think the "dies to removal" angle is a little less relevant since you've got countermagic to keep the thing alive if needed.

  10. #70

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Hey guys! Been busy being lazy. Sorry for not updating as much; my local play group fell apart so I only tangentially keep up with EDH. Origins looks like it has some pretty cool stuff though.

    Day's Undoing Probably not. We can already play Timetwister if we want so...yeah. Pass.

    Jace's Sanctum I like this. Pseudo-ramp and card quality! I'll find room for this card, most likely.

    Talent of the Telepath Spell Mastery is easy for us to achieve but this card is hit or miss depending on the decks you play against. Could be money against spellslinger-style decks.

    Thopter Spy Network This would be sweet if I had more artifacts. I don't think I run enough to play this guy. Another good reason to run Tezz 1.0.

    Dark Petition Hm. Not sure about this card. Midgame it's basically a DT if you can funnel the black mana into what you tutor for or something in your hand. Otherwise it's a five mana tutor which isn't particularly good.

    Starfield of Nyx: This card is pretty hot. One part card advantage and one part wincon. I've always wanted an Academy Ruins for enchantments but this might be better. It changes the way you evaluate cards. Aura of Silence(which adds to the prison subtheme as well as being removal) looks pretty hot as does Seal of Doom. Deed? Yep. That magic fish that you didn't pay the upkeep on comes back for free! And on turn 12 you have an army of enchantments to beat down with. Sweet. Also re: layers and such if you have five enchantments out I think that Humility turns off Moat, The Abyss, etc. so you can attack but they're not 1/1's. Something to be aware of so if you're enchantments are holding everyone at bay and you haven't Global Ruin-ed everyone yet.

    With that out of the way...

    I would love to play Balance. A sweet Beta, NM copy for maximum awesome. Gift's Ungiven would be the other card that would be extremely good here.

    Half the reason I made this thread is because there was nowhere else I saw this this type of strategy being discussed. This deck scratched that itch of playing those archaic-looking decks from the mid 90's.

    I like Ring's but it occasionally sat around doing nothing. Boo. I don't like Myth Realized because it doesn't do much but it is a good finisher though.

    I also don't like proxies.

    I think that's most everything. Oh, I'll clean up the opening post a bit. Some ugly formatting issues.
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  11. #71

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Amarth View Post
    Starfield of Nyx: This card is pretty hot. One part card advantage and one part wincon. I've always wanted an Academy Ruins for enchantments but this might be better. It changes the way you evaluate cards. Aura of Silence(which adds to the prison subtheme as well as being removal) looks pretty hot as does Seal of Doom. Deed? Yep. That magic fish that you didn't pay the upkeep on comes back for free! And on turn 12 you have an army of enchantments to beat down with. Sweet. Also re: layers and such if you have five enchantments out I think that Humility turns off Moat, The Abyss, etc. so you can attack but they're not 1/1's. Something to be aware of so if you're enchantments are holding everyone at bay and you haven't Global Ruin-ed everyone yet.
    I'm very excited about the possibilities for this card in this deck. It's half recursion engine and half win condition for us so it works very well with the theme for the deck. I'm going to pick up a copy to test with.

    In other news, Ajani Vengeant is not testing that well. About half the time, he's great, but his +1 requires that the permanent already be tapped. I think Tamiyo, the Moon Sage might be slightly better because she does functionally the same thing but is blue for Force of Will. Ugin, the Spirit Dragon has been pretty great so far. He (it?) works well when we are behind because he is such a good sweeper. The only problem I've encountered is that is can blow up our own lock pieces.

    EDIT: I forgot to mention that I think Molten Vortex from Magic Origins looks pretty good as far as inclusions for the deck. I think it's much more playable than Seismic Assault because it only costs R and it's quite good as both a means to control the board and a win condition with Life from the Loam. What does everyone here think?

    EDIT 2: I went looking for enchantments that might work well in this deck and came across a few that have potential.

    Aether Flash - kills creatures as they enter the battlefield with Humility out.
    Aura of Silence - already mentioned by Amon above.
    Dream Tides - disruption piece?
    Font of Fortunes - this works pretty well with Starfield of Nyx for repeated card draw.
    Greed - more card draw? Do we need this?
    Land Equilibrium - this card is nasty, but does it come down soon enough? It's quite dead late game and I think we are trying to avoid dead cards.
    Night of Souls' Betrayal - also good with Humility.
    Parallax Wave - we can do the trick where you remove four creatures and then the Wave for a super Swords to Plowshares if Starfield of Nyx is out and active.
    Seal of Doom - mentioned above.
    Solitary Confinement - we can sacrifice it on our upkeep, and then recur it with Starfield of Nyx.
    Soul Snare - similar to Seal of Doom
    Suppression Field - I don't think this effects us too much and is a nice speed bump.
    Wild Research - if we have a handful of cards, this can turn them into answers. I saw a Zedruu deck use this very effectively and want to try it out.
    Last edited by Baumeister; 07-07-2015 at 08:41 AM.

  12. #72

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post
    I'm very excited about the possibilities for this card in this deck. It's half recursion engine and half win condition for us so it works very well with the theme for the deck. I'm going to pick up a copy to test with.
    Starfield of Nyx also jumped out at me. I think it is worth testing. It's grindy and adds inevitability. That said...

    It's a slow Replenish, a card we already run.

    It also makes our enchantments vulnerable to creature removal (eventually). Enchantments are typically powerful because in addition to doing game-breaking things, they are not as vulnerable to removal as are creatures. We don't always have the counterspell.

    Moat and Abyss, two enchantments that are difficult for many decks to play around, don't play nicely with Starfield of Nyx when the animation condition is met.

  13. #73

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Petracca View Post
    It's a slow Replenish, a card we already run.

    It also makes our enchantments vulnerable to creature removal (eventually). Enchantments are typically powerful because in addition to doing game-breaking things, they are not as vulnerable to removal as are creatures. We don't always have the counterspell.

    Moat and Abyss, two enchantments that are difficult for many decks to play around, don't play nicely with Starfield of Nyx when the animation condition is met.
    I'm going to go ahead and argue with you on this one. You made three pretty good points, however; I think the subtle synergies with the deck make it much more powerful than you mention here.

    Yes, it is like Replenish. It functions differently enough over the course of the game, though. Replenish is a one-time bomb akin to Fact or Fiction while Starfield of Nyx is more like Future Sight. Both cards are good and generate absurd card advantage, but do so in different ways. If you think of Starfield as a slow Replenish then of course it looks bad. The strength lies in the repeatable effect.

    The other point you made is that the second block of text potentially doesn't play well with the other enchantments in the deck. True, but, again, the power lies in the subtleties. The fact that we can control when to activate the second line of text is absurd. If the opponent had control, the card would be unplayable. But that's not the case. It's similar to how Heliod, God of the Sun functions. Do I want him to be a creature? Most of the time, no. But occasionally it's useful to be able to pop devotion and swing for the win.

    I would say most of the time we only need a couple of enchantments on the board to keep a nice lock on the table. It's just a matter of careful play after Starfield hits the board. Testing has been generally positive so far. It can do some absurd things and is a beefy CA engine. The biggest problem is that it becomes a huge target when people realize what I'm up to and Starfield does not recur itself. Oh man how I would give my left ovary for it to self-recur.

    Wild Research has been interesting as well. It's essentially Survival of the Fittest for instants and enchantments. I'm fairly certain it's borderline win-more as it gets really good when you have a full grip of cards, but it does function at instant speed. It also repeatedly pulls bombs out of the deck. I'm going to keep testing.

    I added Wargate back into the deck solely because of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and it's been quite good. Late game, it's been pretty great about finding Humility and its ilk, so that's just icing on the proverbial cake.

  14. #74

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post
    I'm going to go ahead and argue with you on this one. You made three pretty good points, however; I think the subtle synergies with the deck make it much more powerful than you mention here.
    It's all good!

    Amon has done an incredible job of describing this deck. I play less spot removal and more manipulation cards, but the mix of other cards is very similar. We are to the point where we are slotting in specific cards based on our experience, our metagame, and individual lines of play.

    That's a pretty cool place to be.

    I haven't playtested Starfield of Nyx yet. I have an open mind. Keep the information coming. :)

    As long as you are testing, don't forget about these cards. Sterling Grove seems like it would be especially nifty if I could replay it every turn with Starfield. The best part is, the first Sterling Grove gets you Starfield!


    Sterling Grove
    Privileged Position
    Sphere of Safety
    Serra's Sanctum



    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post
    Yes, it is like Replenish. It functions differently enough over the course of the game, though. Replenish is a one-time bomb akin to Fact or Fiction while Starfield of Nyx is more like Future Sight. Both cards are good and generate absurd card advantage, but do so in different ways. If you think of Starfield as a slow Replenish then of course it looks bad. The strength lies in the repeatable effect.
    What did you take out to test Starfield?


    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post
    I added Wargate back into the deck solely because of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and it's been quite good. Late game, it's been pretty great about finding Humility and its ilk, so that's just icing on the proverbial cake.
    A while back, when Amon posted that he took Wargate out, I posted something similar: But it puts Tabernacle directly into play from your library!

    I still run Wargate. Putting Tabernacle, Strip Mine, or Maze of Ith directly into play is strong. It looks like Amon is using Personal Tutor to setup Global Ruin or some other bomb instead. I see merit in both lines of play.

    Like I said, we are to the point where we are swapping in and out a dozen or so cards depending on factors that probably aren't universal.

  15. #75

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Petracca View Post
    As long as you are testing, don't forget about these cards. Sterling Grove seems like it would be especially nifty if I could replay it every turn with Starfield. The best part is, the first Sterling Grove gets you Starfield!


    Sterling Grove
    Privileged Position
    Sphere of Safety
    Serra's Sanctum
    I so badly want Grove and Position to be good, but they don't do anything to further our gameplan. Grove is a tutor, so I suppose there is that. Half the time, I don't really have a board to protect anyway since I'm playing out of my hand.

    Sphere is a bad Collective Restraint. I think I only need one effect like that in the deck, and Restraint is cheaper, bluer, and easier to get to an activation cost of 5.

    Sanctum is good, but it dies to everything. I know that's not a good argument, but it's not high-impact enough to warrant the risks as the deck currently stands. I once played a game where someone hit my Sanctum (which tapped for one at the time) with Acidic Slime because he was "Aware of what that card could do," even though there were half a dozen better targets on the board. If the enchantment count gets above 25 or so, then I think this gets included, but it's kind of hit or miss right now.

    What did you take out to test Starfield?
    From the list on the first page? No idea. I'm not running the sorcery speed top-of-library tutors and Phyrexian Metamorph is not currently in my list. Here's the deck breakdown.

    36 Lands
    6 Mana Development
    13 Card Selection (tutors, Library, Top)
    6 Card Advantage
    6 Recursion
    27 Disruption (includes Tabernacle and Maze)
    5 Planeswalkers

    If I were to pull cards from the deck, it'd probably be from the disruption suite.

    A while back, when Amon posted that he took Wargate out, I posted something similar: But it puts Tabernacle directly into play from your library!

    I still run Wargate. Putting Tabernacle, Strip Mine, or Maze of Ith directly into play is strong. It looks like Amon is using Personal Tutor to setup Global Ruin or some other bomb instead. I see merit in both lines of play.

    Like I said, we are to the point where we are swapping in and out a dozen or so cards depending on factors that probably aren't universal.
    At the very least, it's a ramp piece when necessary. Thanks to the variable cost and high quality targets we run, it's pretty much stellar at all points of the game. Three mana to put Tabernacle in play feels like cheating.

  16. #76

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post

    Sphere is a bad Collective Restraint. I think I only need one effect like that in the deck, and Restraint is cheaper, bluer, and easier to get to an activation cost of 5.
    This is essentially what I am saying about Starfield of Nyx.

    Starfield is a bad Replenish. I only need one effect like that in the deck, and Replenish is easier to cast, immediately impactful, and doesn't shut off lines of play.

    A couple of things:

    1) I haven't tested Starfield of Nyx. It might be brilliant.
    2) I respect the time and attention you have taken with this thread. I value your opinion. And thank you for articulating your thought process about your card choices.
    3) It's possible that our deck lists and metagame are dissimilar enough that evaluating individual cards will lead us to opposite conclusions.

    I remember reading Oscar Tan's Control Player's Bible. At one point, he was running Ivory Mask main deck in Keeper (The Deck) because it wrecked people in the small metagame that was his workplace (school?) lunchroom.

    We have a deck that support (and get) just about any card on demand. How awesome is that?

  17. #77

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Petracca View Post
    This is essentially what I am saying about Starfield of Nyx.

    Starfield is a bad Replenish. I only need one effect like that in the deck, and Replenish is easier to cast, immediately impactful, and doesn't shut off lines of play.
    Simpy put, I'd play a bad Replenish in this deck. The effect is so bonkers that I'm willing to make a slot for it.

    Sphere of Safety and Collective Restraint combat the same problem in the same way but Sphere is slightly less optimized for the deck. They also both compete with the sweepers in the deck meaning we have far more redundancy against creatures than we have utility to further our board state.

    Starfield of Nyx functions differently from Replenish by generating value over time, especially with enchantments that can be sacrificed for value. I understand the power of Replenish and love the card to death, but these games go loooong and effects that reiterate every turn for no mana investment beyond the original cost should not be underestimated.

    Needless to say, I'm quite excited and will test thoroughly. Maybe it will just be a huge let down, but it'll be interesting figuring it out. The deck feels about 95% optimized, but there is just something missing in some games and I'm trying to perfect the balance of the different components of the deck.

    I respect the time and attention you have taken with this thread. I value your opinion. And thank you for articulating your thought process about your card choices.
    No problem! As long as you keep attacking my ideas and not me personally, I don't take any issue with how you come across. Lively interaction is the best way to force one's head out of one's ass.

  18. #78

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Privileged Position I want to be good but it feels like Danger of Cool Things and it doesn't really affect the board too much. I probably won't even test it. Sterling Grove on the other hand is recurrable with Starfield and also provides protection from spot removal. A very solid card.

    Re: Wargate I think I took it out before I even had Tabernacle in the deck. I could see playing it again solely because of that. Tabernacle is sweet.


    The comparison between Starfield and the Gods is a pretty good one. You can control when your enchantments animate so you can beatdown when appropriate.
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  19. #79

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Amarth View Post
    Sterling Grove on the other hand is recurrable with Starfield and also provides protection from spot removal. A very solid card.
    @Amon & Eric: what are you thinking about cutting in order to fit these new cards in? My changes from the opening post are:

    - Brainstorm
    - Imperial Seal
    - Personal Tutor
    - Dissipate
    - Forbid
    - Unexpectedly Absent
    - Wrath of God
    - The Abyss
    - Phyrexian Metamorph

    + Jace's Sanctum
    + Sterling Grove
    + Wargate
    + Dig Through Time
    + Starfield of Nyx
    + Aura of Silence
    + Utter End
    + Narset Transcendent
    + Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

  20. #80

    Re: [EDH] Cromat

    Quote Originally Posted by Baumeister View Post
    @Amon & Eric: what are you thinking about cutting in order to fit these new cards in? My changes from the opening post are:

    - Brainstorm
    - Imperial Seal
    - Personal Tutor
    - Dissipate
    - Forbid
    - Unexpectedly Absent
    - Wrath of God
    - The Abyss
    - Phyrexian Metamorph

    + Jace's Sanctum
    + Sterling Grove
    + Wargate
    + Dig Through Time
    + Starfield of Nyx
    + Aura of Silence
    + Utter End
    + Narset Transcendent
    + Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
    I am probably going to break this up over a few posts so that I don't get timed out. :)

    My short answer is that if I absolutely had to run Starfield of Nyx, I would also run Sterling Grove. To make room for those two cards in my deck, I would swap out Phyrexian Metamorph and Fabricate.

    Like in Amon's write-up, Phyrexian Metamorph is in my "utility" slot. Unless I was ready to make Starfield of Nyx my win-con, the utility slot is the first slot where I test out a new card. Fabricate is the tutor I least want to see. I only use it to get Door to Nothingness, and there are other, more flexible ways to do that.

    In the next post, I want to take a closer look at the swaps you posted. I have some thoughts and questions.

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