Brainstorm is one of those cards that makes this deck "smaller." Similarly, Ponder and Preordain, for a very low mana cost, will fix weak draws. Can you tell me more about cutting Brainstorm?
I don't own Imperial Seal, but if I did I would run it. Sometimes I use Lim-Dul's Vault here. Sometimes I use Merchant Scroll. Merchant-->Mystical-->Demonic-->Win! is a totally reasonable play from back in my Type 1 days. Cruel Tutor is more mana, but in the ballpark for mid-to-late game.
Personal Tutor has been Wargate for me as well, but I do see the allure of PT. Merchant Scroll could go in this slot as well.
You took out two counterspells. I have them, but I have less spot removal cards. I think this is a metagame choice. When I am losing to fast combo, the cheaper counterspells come back in.
It looks like you swapped Unexpectedly Absent for Utter End. It seemed to me that UE was too much mana at 4cc. Are you having any trouble with it? Amon has disagreed with me in the past about spot removal, and I respect that. I would say that Beast Within, Chaos Warp, and Oblation all solve a lot of problems at instant speed, low cost, and gentle mana requirements. I have not had a problem with the drawbacks. That said, UE is pretty crazy. :)
Wrath of God gets the job done. I would take out Supreme Verdict before WoG, but it is a close call. In my experience, the creature sweepers are where we reap massive card advantage. Many decks are trying to win with creatures. Are you finding that you have too many sweepers sitting in your hand?
The Abyss is game-breaking. Since we don't have any creatures in our deck, the effect is completely asymmetric. Most creature decks cannot recover when this card hits the table after a sweeper or early in the game.
Phyrexian Metamorph is in the utility slot, so no questions here. When it's sitting in my hand, I'd much rather have something like Monastery Siege or Ponder. I've been running Rings in this slot recently.
Jace's Sanctum jumped out at me from Origins. The curve on this deck is pretty tight, but spending less mana is always nice. I'm not sure that I am cranking out enough spells to make the repeated scrying activate regularly. There are a lot of turns where I play a land and pass. That's why I was looking at Thassa, God of the Sea a while back: cheaper, indestructible, guaranteed scry every turn.
Grove and Wargate, yep.
Dig and Cruise don't work for me in this deck. I have a strong aversion to exiling cards, so I am biased. But I'd rather have Skeletal Scrying if I had some run a similar effect. Even Impulse gets me halfway there with more consistency. How many times does Dig sit in your hand vs. win you the game? (I am genuinely interested!)
The great thing about this deck is we can reasonably run just about any card ever printed. So, I like to ask myself, "Does this card do something better than a card I am already running?" In other words, does the card stand up and demand to be played (Humility, Moat, etc)?
The next question I ask myself is, "Does this card do something entirely different than a card I am already running?" Stranglehold is a good example of this type of card. It's generally disruptive to many EDH decks and cuts off decks that try to take extra (or infinite) turns.
The last questions I ask myself is, "Does this card work well because of some other card I am already running?" Demonic Tutor is a good example of this. If we ran a bunch of crap cards, Demonic Tutor would be terrible. But because we run the most broken cards ever printed, Demonic Tutor is a spectacular card!
So, is Aura of Silence good enough on it's own? Does it do something different? And is it only good because of some other card we are already running?
Aura of Silence is generally disruptive, like Stranglehold. Many decks ramp with artifacts. And it can be used as limited spot removal. It gets better if you can replay it every turn. Would you run it without Starfield of Nyx? (Same question for Sterling Grove.)
I mentioned Utter End in the previous post.
You've talked about Narset in previous posts. The other cards in this deck are so incredibly strong, I'd rather have Sphinx's Revelation or anything else that puts cards directly into my hand. Thirst for Knowledge gives us a couple of cards in hand for less mana. I haven't tested Narset, so I may be missing the boat on this one.
Ugin is sweet. The sweep effect is awesome. I'm going to have to test him out.
Wow, lots of stuff from you. I'll try and go over everything one by one. Keep in mind that this is a metagame deck so some cuts and additions are to take advantage of strategies my playgroup is soft to.
Brainstorm is absurd, no doubt about it. I'm trying more of a brute-force card drawing approach at the moment, but I think you may be right about adding this and Impulse back into the deck over some of the obtuse card advantage engines. I've discussed strategy with a friend and once your deck hits a critical tipping point of powerful spells, cantrips may be the way to go. I'll probably end of sliding back towards a more efficient card manipulation package.
Yeah, I don't own a Seal. If I did, it would probably be to flip it. I don't like that it's a sorcery AND a one-shot effect that doesn't put a spell in my hand. I'm trying some of the effects that repeat to see if I can milk value out of them.I don't own Imperial Seal, but if I did I would run it. Sometimes I use Lim-Dul's Vault here. Sometimes I use Merchant Scroll. Merchant-->Mystical-->Demonic-->Win! is a totally reasonable play from back in my Type 1 days. Cruel Tutor is more mana, but in the ballpark for mid-to-late game.
Merchant Scroll is okay, but it's so narrow that it only hits a very small portion of our deck.Personal Tutor has been Wargate for me as well, but I do see the allure of PT. Merchant Scroll could go in this slot as well.
I know, but cuts had to be made and I usually hold counterspells until there is something I can't deal with by other means. So I went down in order to have fewer potentially dead cards.You took out two counterspells. I have them, but I have less spot removal cards. I think this is a metagame choice. When I am losing to fast combo, the cheaper counterspells come back in.
Utter End is almost always cheaper than Unexpectedly Absent when you need something gone. Plus, with the Commander rules update, I think it's just a direct upgrade since you can't bury an opponent's commander in their deck.It looks like you swapped Unexpectedly Absent for Utter End. It seemed to me that UE was too much mana at 4cc. Are you having any trouble with it? Amon has disagreed with me in the past about spot removal, and I respect that. I would say that Beast Within, Chaos Warp, and Oblation all solve a lot of problems at instant speed, low cost, and gentle mana requirements. I have not had a problem with the drawbacks. That said, UE is pretty crazy. :)
Supreme Verdict can't be countered and is blue. The mana has never been an issue since I always search for lands that can produce blue and white. I found myself not needing a ton of wrath effects in the deck. I think I am at 6 or 7 at the moment and it's a good balance. A lot of the sweepers I want to run are either extremely flexible (Austere Command) or pull double duty (Ugin, the Spirit Dragon).Wrath of God gets the job done. I would take out Supreme Verdict before WoG, but it is a close call. In my experience, the creature sweepers are where we reap massive card advantage. Many decks are trying to win with creatures. Are you finding that you have too many sweepers sitting in your hand?
The Abyss is really good, yes... when you are ahead in the game. It does almost nothing when you need to answer more than one creature and is a bad topdeck later in the game. Amon and I have had this argument. I think the card doesn't do a lot and draws the ire of other players at the table. Plus, the majority of the time a player would pitch a Wood Elves that they had already gotten value out of and then windmill slam their Terastodon and proceed to get back at me for ruining their fun. I'd rather have Humility every single time.The Abyss is game-breaking. Since we don't have any creatures in our deck, the effect is completely asymmetric. Most creature decks cannot recover when this card hits the table after a sweeper or early in the game.
It's half mana ramp and half card manipulation, so I think it's worth a test slot. I'll have to play more games before I pass judgment.Jace's Sanctum jumped out at me from Origins. The curve on this deck is pretty tight, but spending less mana is always nice. I'm not sure that I am cranking out enough spells to make the repeated scrying activate regularly. There are a lot of turns where I play a land and pass. That's why I was looking at Thassa, God of the Sea a while back: cheaper, indestructible, guaranteed scry every turn.
Dig Through Time has been Fact or Fiction number two every time I've drawn it. It's not quite as powerful, but it only costs UU (at the cost of your graveyard), digs really deep, and is an instant. I've been very impressed.Dig and Cruise don't work for me in this deck. I have a strong aversion to exiling cards, so I am biased. But I'd rather have Skeletal Scrying if I had some run a similar effect. Even Impulse gets me halfway there with more consistency. How many times does Dig sit in your hand vs. win you the game? (I am genuinely interested!)
Aura of Silence replaced Maelstrom Pulse since they hit similar targets. Aura is really, really good with Starfield of Nyx in play. Again, this is a test slot and may come out.So, is Aura of Silence good enough on it's own? Does it do something different? And is it only good because of some other card we are already running?
No, no, no, no, no. Synergy > Flexibility > Power (at least in EDH).It gets better if you can replay it every turn. Would you run it without Starfield of Nyx? (Same question for Sterling Grove.)
She draws attention away from me while generating card quality and card advantage. She has been very good as a sort of "glue" that helps maintain my game position. It's hard to explain, but I've been happy to draw her every time I have.You've talked about Narset in previous posts. The other cards in this deck are so incredibly strong, I'd rather have Sphinx's Revelation or anything else that puts cards directly into my hand. Thirst for Knowledge gives us a couple of cards in hand for less mana. I haven't tested Narset, so I may be missing the boat on this one.
I think he's better than a sweeper since you get targeted removal that builds towards a threat or a variable sweeper that you can tune to garner favor from some of the other players.Ugin is sweet. The sweep effect is awesome. I'm going to have to test him out.
Ramping
I did some testing (10 games, 1vs1) with different configurations of ramp cards, swapping out the artifact ramp for the green ramp spells: Nature's Lore, Farseek, Explore, Three Visits, Skyshroud Claim.
Ramping lands directly into play was good. This often boosted the count for Collective Restraint by one or two earlier than normal. It also created less targets for opposing removal. I see more artifact removal than land destruction. YMMV.
Then this happened. My testing partner swapped decks against me and started a B/R deck. Turn two, he dropped Blood Moon. Game over. Next game. Turn two, Demonic Tutor. Turn three, Blood Moon. Game over.
So, if Blood Moon is in your meta, mix it up: Nature's Lore, Three Visits, Skyshroud Claim, Chromatic Lantern, Darksteel Ingot, Coalition Relic. Something like that.
Other Cards
There's a high bar to clear for a card to make it into this deck, but a couple of other spells from Origins caught my eye.
Shadows of the Past - There are plenty of turns where 6-12 creatures die at once. This enchantment is a conditional, repeatable scry effect for no additional mana. It's decent against a lot of decks and great against token decks.
Tragic Arrogance - This is a reasonably costed way to get back in the game when things are out of hand. It does leave threats on the board, but you choose which ones. I'm not sure what I would swap out for this, but I can imagine situations where casting this all but locks up the game.
Other Testing
Did you get a chance to try Starfield of Nyx, yet? I'm interested to know how that turned out.
I was running this ramp package for a while but eventually moved away from it back to the mana rocks for a few reasons: 1) The spells wanted to be played early game, however; we really don't want green mana early game so it skewed the mana base in an odd direction; 2) The mana rocks tap for more colors; 3) You mentioned Blood Moon - I will usually try to hold removal for the player I expect to be packing the Moon and will float mana in response to them playing it; 4) The deck honestly doesn't need a ton of ramp and these spells felt like I was trying to pound in a nail with a sledgehammer.
I actually tested this card and eventually cut it for not doing enough. Scry is a good ability, but this is a deck full of powerful cards and this just does not quite make it. For 100 mana, you can kill the board though.Shadows of the Past - There are plenty of turns where 6-12 creatures die at once. This enchantment is a conditional, repeatable scry effect for no additional mana. It's decent against a lot of decks and great against token decks.
I tested this briefly, but have not seen it in a game yet. It's essentially a fixed Balance, but it doesn't wipe as much. I like that you get to choose the cards that stay in play, though.Tragic Arrogance - This is a reasonably costed way to get back in the game when things are out of hand. It does leave threats on the board, but you choose which ones. I'm not sure what I would swap out for this, but I can imagine situations where casting this all but locks up the game.
Yeah, the card is quite good, although very skill intensive to use. It makes for a phenomenal late game/kill condition. Also, it's absurd with Sterling Grove (good suggestion) in that you can basically win the game if no one can do anything to the Starfield. I think that interaction alone is worth running it, but the incidental value you get out of recurring enchantments is very strong. It allows your counterspells to go a bit further by not having to burn them on protecting important lock pieces.Did you get a chance to try Starfield of Nyx, yet? I'm interested to know how that turned out.
I also tested Jace's Sanctum and I don't really like it. It's slow and doesn't do all that much over the course of a game, sadly. This slot could be better utilized with something more high-impact.
In other news, transmuting Tolaria West into The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is still one of my favorite plays ever.
I personally like Skyshroud Claim, but otherwise I agree that mana rocks are where it's at.
How? You don't run creatures and the life loss requires 4 in your graveyard...
Agreed. The 5-color fixing of the artifacts is probably more useful than the slightly faster green ramp spells. I guess it depends on how quickly you want certain spells online.
There were quite a few games where I felt like I was ramping, but not for any particular reason. Yes, having access to more mana is good in general, but I wasn't specifically able to take advantage of it the way a proactive deck might.
As for floating mana to deal with Blood Moon, that's usually my plan. I simply wasn't in the position to do that in those specific games. And I don't like losing randomly to one card that might show up in a wide range of decks.
Good to know that you tested with Shadows of the Past already. I'll probably skip it. And yes, as someone already pointed out, we can't activate the ability with this deck because we can't meet the condition. So we aren't able to get full value anyway.I actually tested this card and eventually cut it for not doing enough. Scry is a good ability, but this is a deck full of powerful cards and this just does not quite make it. For 100 mana, you can kill the board though.
Are we to the point where trying to put the puzzle together to use Door to Nothingness as the win condition isn't worth it? Does Starfield replace Door? Are the planeswalker ults enough of a win condition to not deal with Door anyway?Yeah, the card is quite good, although very skill intensive to use. It makes for a phenomenal late game/kill condition. Also, it's absurd with Sterling Grove (good suggestion) in that you can basically win the game if no one can do anything to the Starfield. I think that interaction alone is worth running it, but the incidental value you get out of recurring enchantments is very strong. It allows your counterspells to go a bit further by not having to burn them on protecting important lock pieces.
Would you describe some games where you used Starfield effectively? I'm still interested in how you strategically play around animating your Moat. Or maybe that's not how you are using it.
Really, I was being facetious, but you are 100% correct. I played this card more in my Chainer deck where the second criteria is so incidental, that I didn't even bother to remember it was on the card. Jesus, that conditional text is terrible.
There is definitely a fine balance to make sure you have the right cards at the right time. I usually feel more comfortable holding removal and hitting land drops every turn instead of ramping.There were quite a few games where I felt like I was ramping, but not for any particular reason. Yes, having access to more mana is good in general, but I wasn't specifically able to take advantage of it the way a proactive deck might.
Scry is much better in a deck where you have redundant copies of cards because it allows you to filter to the answer more easily. It's just not as good in a singleton format unless you have something like Scry 7 - an argument can be made that Fact or Fiction and Dig Through Time do that much better.Good to know that you tested with Shadows of the Past already. I'll probably skip it. And yes, as someone already pointed out, we can't activate the ability with this deck because we can't meet the condition. So we aren't able to get full value anyway.
Door is still the best at what it does because it is so compact, however; it's extremely fragile especially when there is a red player with removal at the table. I don't think we should remove it because it straight up wins if the other players can't interact and that in itself is worth a slot in the deck. The planeswalker ultimates are incidental to the other abilities. In conjunction with our lock pieces, the planeswalkers simply take over the game and direct attention away from our life total. Starfield functions similarly as a way to generate repeated card advantage. Yes, it can win you the game, but that's not really why I'm playing it.Are we to the point where trying to put the puzzle together to use Door to Nothingness as the win condition isn't worth it? Does Starfield replace Door? Are the planeswalker ults enough of a win condition to not deal with Door anyway?
Games with Starfield are typically quite grindy. It's at its best when you can prolong the game and get the other players to pass their turns without doing much. You have to change your thinking a bit with the card in the deck, but it does reward you for that. It's like if you see Exploration in your hand. You know if you can find Crucible of Worlds, your odds of winning go up a lot.Would you describe some games where you used Starfield effectively? I'm still interested in how you strategically play around animating your Moat. Or maybe that's not how you are using it.
The last game I played, I slowly built up my land base and cracked Sterling Grove EOT for Starfield of Nyx to build an advantage engine. It was important to keep a full grip of removal to keep the Starfield in play, but I was able to hit Stranglehold, Collective Restraint, Future Sight, and Pernicious Deed turn after turn to soft lock the board. With Grove/Deed in play, I had an instant-speed way to nullify creature removal by binning the Grove/Deed in response to shenanigans from my opponents. I ended up attacking into players on my turn by popping Deed when needed to clear the ground and then playing out Grove to turn my enchantments into beaters.
It was unconventional, but the fact that the second ability on the Starfield allowed me to win was pretty sweet because I essentially got double value from the card. It's not immediately obvious how powerful the card is, but I suggest you try it to see if it works for your play group. I will say that it doesn't play well with Moat or Humility but those cards are so heinous that it hardly matters. Remember, you can pop your own stuff with Deed to sculpt your board to play around the Starfield. Also, Starfield doesn't turn itself into a creature which can be important in a sticky situation.
Here's a quick list of cards with comments from Battle for Zendikar that might work in this deck. I haven't tested any of these yet, but I'd be interested to read your thoughts.
Ob Nixilis Reignited
His -3 ability destroys a creature (Murder), then his +1 ability turns him into Phyrexian Arena. I'm not sure this guy better than other planeswalkers we already have access to.
Quarantine Field
I don't like effects like this, because it always seems like they come back to bite me. Inevitably, the Quarantine Field gets destroyed and releases all the nasty things inside. That said, this one scales. So, that's interesting.
Retreat to Coralhelm
With all the fetchlands in this deck, the blue Retreat means that we can scry a couple of times. I don't think this card is nearly strong enough to make it in this deck, but being able to hold back a fetch land to tap down a creature is interesting.
Prism Array
I want this card to be good, but I don't think it is. Best case scenario, you can tap down a few creatures and then way overspend to Scry 3.
Scour from Existence
Unconditional, instant speed, universal removal. We already have Utter End at 4cc, though.
Bring to Light
It's a tutor that also casts the card you find. Are you guys testing this? We run enough instants and sorceries that we have good targets all of the time. You can spend 5cc mana to cast Bring to Light, get Demonic Tutor, cast DT for free, then get whatever you want and end up with the final card in your hand (instead of exile). In other words, as long at DT is still in your deck, Bring to Light gets you any card you want.
What other cards did I miss from BFZ? (I left out the Eldrazi because this is basically a creatureless deck and we already had access to the original Kozilek and Ulamog.)
I'm super bad at keeping up with this thread but I will quickly comment on BFZ.
Bring to Light is probably the only thing I'd want to consider playing from BFZ though the new Ob isn't half-bad. BtL seems pretty awesome; it's a WoG/FoF/Ruin/Replenish split card. That seems worth testing.
"We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."
I have found these cards to be okay, but not great. Unfortunately, they would compete with slots for cards we already have that function better in the deck. Ob Nixilis is the most interesting, but is slightly overpriced. Retreat is best in a combo shell. The others are just bad removal.
You and Amon both pointed this out and I think it's pretty exciting. This card is legitimate. It's not great early game, but our late game tends to be all over the place and this finds bombs for us to stabilize the board. Early testing has been favorable as a flexible slot for recursion, card advantage, and disruption. The fact that you don't have to pay for what you find is really nice. Also, I don't believe you need to cast the card you found right away? Somebody correct me on this if I am wrong.Bring to Light
It's a tutor that also casts the card you find. Are you guys testing this? We run enough instants and sorceries that we have good targets all of the time. You can spend 5cc mana to cast Bring to Light, get Demonic Tutor, cast DT for free, then get whatever you want and end up with the final card in your hand (instead of exile). In other words, as long at DT is still in your deck, Bring to Light gets you any card you want.
There will be some trickiness with what you use to pay for the card and knowing what you want to get from what's left in your deck. Still, skill intensive cards are generally better for this deck.
EDIT: Crap, you have to cast the card you find as part of the resolution of Bring to Light. That makes it worse.
Last edited by Baumeister; 10-06-2015 at 01:47 PM. Reason: Rules
Yes, you cast the card you find right away. The DT thing I mentioned is a way around that restriction, sort of.
Amon's comment, that BtL acts as a split card for different effects that we run, is an interesting way to think about what this card is doing for us in this deck.
Thank you both for the insight.
I've been able to test a few games with the newly added Bring to Light and I have more thoughts to add to the conversation about it.
I think it is slightly above average on the power scale. Of course, the better the quality of the cards you have, the better it is so it tends to shine in decks like this. That said, it's still just a tutor. It helps that it doesn't cost anything to cast the spell you find which puts it on par with the other tutors in the deck. However, you can't hold the card you find which matters sometimes. I did have a pretty spectacular game with it recently:
It was late game and it was down to just me and one other player, the other two having been eliminated. I cast Bring to Light finding and casting Yawgmoth's Will. I cast Replenish from my yard getting back Exploration, Stranglehold, Moat, Humility, and Future Sight. I cast Crucible of Worlds from my graveyard and put Strip Mine into play. Starting on the other player's upkeep, I was able to Strip-Lock them out of the game over the course of a few turns.
It wasn't so much that Bring to Light did what no other card could - I'm sure any tutor could have done that for me. It was more that it's a solid tutor in a deck full of high-quality cards. This helps cement the idea that in decks of higher power level, it's more important to have consistent tutoring power than raw draw power. I'd like it more if it were an instant or if it found any permanent or spell, but it's still pretty good. I will continue to run the card for the time being.
Our decks are slightly different, but I cut Dig Through Time as there are now a good deal of cards that interact with our graveyard and the delve is becoming more and more difficult to pay for. That puts me to 14 card selection cards (tutors, Brainstorm, top, etc.) including Bring to Light and five raw card advantage spells like Phyrexian Arena. I'd like to be at 20 total cards that manipulate my hand/library, but cuts are tough. My justification for cutting a CA card is that BtL lets me find Fact or Fiction if I need it.
Wargate is a beast of its own. First and foremost, it's the best tutor for Tabernacle and it will probably take a lot for me to cut that card simply for that reason. Secondly, for between three and eight mana, we can put card selection, card advantage, disruption, recursion, and removal engines directly into play. It also ramps us for the final colors we need for Door, not to mention being another tutor for Door itself.
If I had to pick between Wargate and Bring to Light, it would be Wargate simply because it is synergistic with more of the deck. I am currently running both though.
I'd say Wargate is better because the lock down enchantments are the lynchpin of the deck. BtL can't fetch those too easily outside of tutor chains.
"We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."
Did you guys see anything good for us in the new Commander 2015 set?
http://mythicspoiler.com/c15/index.html
Unfortunately, this was a set with a lot of cards that just didn't hit the power level we look for in this deck. I didn't really think there would be anything though, since the deck functions on an obscure tangent. There were a few of near misses:
Righteous Confluence, Mystic Confluence, Wretched Confluence, Fiery Confluence, Verdant Confluence - Cards designed with multiplayer in mind can be quite powerful, but I feel like Wizards held back on purpose. None of these cards are much better than the Commands and they don't really do anything for the deck than cards we already have access to.
Magus of the Wheel - Interesting and cool, but it's a creature and must be tapped to activate. This isn't how we want card advantage anyway.
Centaur Vinecrasher - This is probably my favorite card from the set. It's a creature, yes, but it's extremely resilient and can get quite large to end the game quickly. Having trample is the thing that pushes him into the playable realm. I will probably test this guy because it gives us a weird form of inevitability. The fact that it lines up nicely with the Crucible/Strip/Fetch engine that is already in the deck is fantastic.
I'm with you.
As for Centaur Vinecrasher, how does it compare to Worm Harvest?
It seems to be pretty similar with Worm Harvest perhaps being more resilient. The only negative I can see is that Harvest needs a land card to discard for the Retrace while Vinecrasher can be recurred from our board state by utilizing Crucible of Worlds. So instead of holding lands for a potential Worm Harvest, we can play them out normally. They are both slow and great late game, but I think Vinecrasher messes with our mana development less in the early game while still being able to be used to its fullest potential late game.
That being said, they may not be good enough either way. I'll certainly test both. Harvest was not a card I thought could work for this deck, but it's pretty great especially if we can control the board while we beat down. Good find.
Centaur has the additional benefit of being fetchable with Wargate. Both cards can be found with Bring to Light though, so that's pretty nice.
EDIT: Wow, I forgot Life from the Loam is a thing... Oops. Definite testing is needed on both of those cards.
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