You put them into play, then pay 4 life for the 2nd and 3rd if you want to keep them, otherwise, you put them back on top I think?
Abundance allows you to replace any card draw by choosing land or non-land and revealing cards from the top of your library until you get a card of the type you chose, you put that card in your hand.
Sylvan Library allows you to draw two extra cards each draw phase after your regular draw has resolved. You must put two of the cards drawn this turn back on top of your library in any order or pay 4 life per card not returned in this manner.
The combo allows you to put three cards in your hand each turn after which you don't have to return any to the top of your library nor pay any life because you did not draw any cards this turn.
When Abundance is in play alone you get to just draw spells or just draw lands depending on what you need. It's a filter to get rid of mana flood basically.
The hangup is that it costs 2 to cast and you do not normally gain any benefit from it until your next draw phase. That's a huge tempo loss in a tight game.
If you choose to draw with Sylvan Library and replace all of the draws with Abundance, you will have "drawn" zero cards and will thus have to put back nothing and pay no life. Same with Pursuit of Knowledge and the Words cycle and dredge. However, the problem with this is too many filter too few indians. If you can assemble Sylvan Library-tron, you pretty much win the game. Unfortunately, the odds of achieving it are low, and without Sylvan Library, Abundance basically amounts to a really expensive Sylvan Library that can't manipulate the top and can't draw cards.
I really don't think Tombstalker in the same deck as Dark Confidant is a good idea. I love TS, but this is not the deck for him in my opinion. I would go back to 4 Goyf. For your flex spot, I think a 4th Abrupt still fits in there fine
An odd card I have been interested in trying out is Unearth. It is essentially Goyf/Bob/DRS #5 once one is removed, or can be cycled away if you don't need it
Not a bad idea. I forgot one of the modes of this was GY hate. Even rakdos charm could be useful. Artifact and grave hate, then the last mode which could help against decks like Elves or any deck that empties the warrens or young pyromancesI think I would add Jund charm to that slot in the current environment.
It's not especially dangerous. You're not guaranteed to always have a Dark Confidant flipping cards, you're not guaranteed to hit Tombstalker even when Confidant is flipping cards, and Tombstalker is a one-of. Top that off with Sylvan Library potentially filtering, and probability is absolutely on your side. Not to mention that even if you do flip Tombstalker, it's not the end of the world. Far from it. You now have a fucking Tombstalker. Short of being indestructible, having hexproof, or protection, it's the most resilient creature in Legacy and one of the largest.
Anyway, I think I've settled on a final list. I'll try to post it later when my phone's not ringing.
Been there. Done that. Fun card. Not necessary.
If you're going to try something like Unearth, Reanimate is just strictly better. The lifeloss is irrelevant, and if it's necessary to ever effectively cycle a Goyf/Bob/DRS, you're already losing the game. On the other hand, being able to Reanimate a Mother of Runes or a True-Name Nemesis or a Snapcaster Mage into that same Reanimate into another creature is... yeah. The downside is that there are so many matches when Reanimate is not just bad, but is utterly worthless. And it doesn't necessarily have any all-star moves to offset that. The best it gets is being able to Reanimate a Reanimator target, but even that can naturally be played around in most circumstances at no cost to the Reanimator player.
Unearth is good in Loam shells that have power you'll dredge by as you work the combos. It doubles as a saving cycle when they're taking your LFtL out with Surgical Extraction or activating Relic of Progenitus to sweep the GY's clean.
Sylvan Oracle
9/16/2007: If you choose to draw two cards, then replace one or more of those draws with some other effect, the rest of Sylvan Library's ability still happens. If you've actually drawn only one card that turn, you must choose that card and either pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If you haven't actually drawn any cards that turn, the rest of the ability has no effect.
If you're going to do it then you need to skip all 3 draws, which is actually good if you don't need lands, hitting the top 3 non-lands is pretty redonk.
Jund bros (and gals?),
Everyone in this thread is losing their damn mind. Treasure Cruise has everyone in fits and understandably but some of these suggesstions are just a touch overboard. Cutting Hymn for example? We run Hymn because our combo match-up is terrible. More often than not I'm siding this card out against any delver deck which is where Treasure Cruise is the most threatening so the idea of "feeding their graveyard" is overblown. Not to mention if your concern is Treasure Cruise how does Inquisition help? The simple answer is it doesn't. Keep the Hymns and sideboard smarter.
Lose Punishing Fire? This isn't the first time or the last we'll talk about this possibility but removing our Fire package seriously undermines our longevitiy. Not to mention it may be our strongest card against delver variants where, again, Treasure Cruise is the most damaging to us.
I've given this Treasure Cruise problem a lot of thought and I have good news and bad news. Good news is we can beat it, the bad news is I'm nearly certain the way we can most efficiently do so is a $400 card on the reserve list. Whomp whomp. Chains of Mephistopheles is the answer to our Jund woes.
Think about how we are able to interact with Treasure Cruise. One way is to attack the graveyard and prevent them from delving. This may seem relavtively easy because traditionally our sideboards are full of graveyard hate but when you get to the true reason for that its because our Reanimator match-up is less than ideal. We bring in graveyard hate that wins us the game not that helps us durdle. If we take this route and main deck our hate we're affecting our deck's bottom line: Tarmogoyf. And for what in exchange? So they can't cast one spell? That doesn't win us the game in the same way eating Griselbrands with Scavenging Ooze or cracking a Spellbomb on a Dredge deck does. All this strategy does is waterdown our power in match-ups where we need to rely on forcing poor trades. The same match-ups where a 4/5 or a 5/6 Tarmogoyf is a serious issue for our opponent.
Another way is to just outright counter the Cruise. Incliment weather, sorry dude. Except we can't do this. Sure we could bring in Red Blast and Pyroblast from the board but that isn't what our deck wants to be doing. How often have you taken this approach in a match and found yourself sitting with a Red Blast in hand wishing it were something relevant? "But it can kill a Delver!" Yea, it can. So does Punishing Fire. The closest we come to this is Thoughtseizing, Hymning or Duressing away a Cruise before they can cast it and we are capable of doing that aready without drastic deck composition changes.
So this brings me to the solution. Anyone who's resolved a Chains of Mephistopheles against a blue player knows how devistating it is. I have never lost a match where a copy of Chains stayed in play. Never. With Chains, Treasure Cruise becomes "Exile your graveyard and discard 3 cards" for U. Great! Traditionally this was a sideboard card because in the match-ups it was good in it was really good and the match-ups its bad against its hot garbage. The current metagame has changed that. The amount of Treasure Cruises running around in my opinion justify main decking Chains of Mephistopheles. Best case scenario you crush your opponents card advantage and then grind them out the way only Jund can. Worst case scenario you pitch it to a Liliana activation and grow your goyf with the ever elusive enchantment card type.
My propsed list for the current metagame would be as follows:
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
Sideboard:
1 Sylvan Library
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Golgari Charm
1 Massacre
2 Duress
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Engineered Plague
I really love the 2 Library configurations and in some match-ups we want to be in that mode but against other decks we need to turn on 2Chainz. A note about the interaction of Sylvan Library and Chains of Mephistopheles if you choose to take this route. Library is a YOU MAY ability meaning if Chains is out you will need to defer from "looking" at the other 2 cards in your draw step. Frequently Library use is played in the manner Scry 3 would be except you're technically drawing these cards. If you do this with Chains in play you will need to discard cards and then put some back or pay life. Tragic. Don't get caught screwing this up, it will end you.
Finally, if the meta shifts or your opponent decided to move to Dig Through Time over Treasure Cruise your Chains of Mephistopheles will do nothing. Dig puts the cards in hand not draw so in this way Dig gets around Chains just like Bob does for us. If you encounter this I'd advise switching to double Library mode and heavier discard, Duress would be a must.
I'll be putting some testing into this leading up to Legacy Champs in Philly and will follow up with you.
Stay strong Jund Bros. Don't panic.
I'm curious who else is coming to Philly. Would you be interested in meeting up?
Went 2-1 in my weekly local.
Round 1 got a bye
Round 2 Beat UR Delver 2-0. My opponent could have killed me multiple times in g1, but he kept burning my planeswalkers/creatures instead of me when I was at 3 or less. Didn't feel like I deserved to win, but somehow I did.
Round 3 Lost to Bant. Game 1 I just naturally lost to mother of runes and a knight which I didn't quite get enough removal for. Game 2 started off amazingly for me, but we both went in to topdeck mode where Jund usually shines. My opponent got a treasure cruise though, and just drew into gas which was unmatched by my meager draws of lands. Ended up falling behind on board after 2 relics to shrinks my goyfs, and then a rest in peace to seal the deal. his final board was 2 stoneforges, 1 equipped with a SoFaI, a noble hierarch, and a dryad arbor. I just got legitimately ground out, and 1 of the relics was able to hit my punishing fire to turn off my engine. I never saw another, but it would have been too late after RiP anyways. This matchup usually plays out quite favorably for me, so I think I can just chalk this one up to bad draws (which the blue decks don't seem to ever have any more).
It felt bad losing to what should be a bye, but oh well. That is magic.
Looking at this as an option for the GP. Would the mainboard Diabolic Edict be better off as a Golgari Charm? I feel like in a heavy Treasure Cruise meta that the Golgari Charm has more options to sweep Elementals along with True-Name. I thought about Jund Charm and I like the pyroclasm, but the other modes seem less impactful. The graveyard removal is nice but seems like a waste, and it will get filled up in time regardless.
Ground games with this deck for 6 hours last night against Cruise control decks and Cruise delver. After board its a fun matchup. Preboard is even. Maindeck Reb is better than maindeck Chains, imho. Reb hits more things than charm or edict.
Matt did you use the list above?
So I was on Reddit this morning reading the MTG Legacy threads and some silly person spoke of splashing blue for treasure cruise.
I gave it a try with this list:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Tropical Island
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
Clearly not optimal at all, but I beat a Grixis Delver deck. I think I need to cut Dark Confidant for another creature, possibly just Delver or Shardless Agent. What do you guys think? Could this even be considered Jund anymore?
Please do not play TC in the same deck as Bob. If you do please hand a champagne bottle to your opponent whenever you flip one card advantage engine with your other card advantage engine and ask him to shoot you in the face with the cork.
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