Not to be a dick, but it's also in part your grammar, and it's not a very interesting question.Originally Posted by HardBrain
Yes, jund will have less talk going for it, like Maverick and others. It'll get rehashed a little bit when interesting creatures get printed, or interesting discard; but honestly that's about it. It's a well defined deck that has a well defined purpose.
It's generally weak to Combo because it's all sorcery speed interaction and is insta-gibbed by Leyline of Sanctity if they run it. It's generally mediocre against Miracles, but not terrible. It eats Delver Decks and competes with the other BGx mid-range decks; who will each say theirs is the best.
Personally, I quite enjoyed my time playing Junk/DGA/Maverick/Aggro-Loam decks. Eventually it wore on me though and I wanted the consistency. You get really tired of losing to mulligans or topdecked lands.
thanks for all posts.
firstly, sorry for my grammar. English is not my native lenguage so i try as best to write enough good to be understand.
Secondly, i already bought dual lands, wastelands, shamans, Htt so i have almost all.
and for the end of my post: anyone can give me any tip and trick about decklist because i saw only normal same list as few months ago no changes. One card is Chandra which in test was good. i consider to play BBE or PTruths in main.
The most problem is to set sideboard. its good to pick Black leyline over Surgical?
Surgical is really flexible.
Has anyone tried red eidolon in the board for storm hate? Card seems really good against them.
I haven't tried Eidolon but it's worth a shot. The downside is that RR can be a bit awkward on the manabase. Pyrostatic Pillar, Thorn of Amethyst, and Trinisphere are analagous cards that are easier to cast. The 2/2 body is relevant though.
tryed my own list at our local weekly league
Went 2-2
Lost vs Miracle,
g1 I probably misplayed a couple of plays looking back (I could kill its jace earlier I think responding to an activation with my fires), sad story short: Never saw a decay till like turn 20+, nor elves, and a lonely Goyf I think, I saw all the fires of the decks, he wons through angels.
G2 Don't recall the exact order, but at one point I get to see his hand with a surgical on something I think, I have wasteland and double badlands in play, short on green, see a ruination in his hand, so I cast needle naming its on-hand jace, waste its red, he is left with no fetch, no ponder, no bs, no red sources, no top, of course he draw a fetch for volcanic and ruination ashames me.
Win vs 4 Delver
THought it was team america at first, since I get hymned, my removal get its threat g1 (few) and goyf does a short work. Same on g2 which goes a little longer, but I see at least two decay one edict, liliana, reb, and all the removals I've got with mana support.
Win vs Shardless
G1 I get going with double fires, he sees only one or none decay, while I see reasonably good cards, punishing does short works of its deathrite while I see three of my ones... (which though die all togheter by a deluge... shame on me for not remembering they may run these maindeck)
Still, p.fires and Sylvan Library bring it at home.
G2 we exchanges blows but I resolve a Chains of Mephistopele, while he has vision suspended and had just cast Sylvan Library, he menages to find a golgari to swept my chains the turn before his ancestral resolves, pass me the turn and I draw bloodbrain, cast it, and he says: "I'm gonna swear if you flip chains", I reply, "well, seems... possible?" while I flip lands Chains... which ultimately win me the game.
Loss Vs Belcher
He usually plays ant, instead he has belcher, sadly he starts and win. gg
G2 I start and say: Needle on berlcher, he stormes me on goblins, I untap and drop golgari, almost gg, I had a couple of discard and thought, well, better throw them anyway, which infact were crucial because he could have diminishing returned the storm count up again.
g3 he starts again so, I'm all about the luck, which, he has, he storms goes for diminishing, storm again, and put 24 goblins on the board, sadly, I can't do much and I lose.
Not too bad though, miracle was kinda unliky, belcher is like a very unexistent deck, and I like the side.
here the decklist I had.
4 deathrite
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
3 bloodbraid
4 punishing
4 abrupt decay
2 lightning bolt
1 kolaghan's command
4 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
3 liliana of the veil
1 sylvan library
1 life from the loam
4 groves
4 wasteland
4 verdant
3 bloodstained
1 wooded f.
1 swamp
1 forest
3 badlands
2 bayou
Side:
2 reb
2 pithing needle
2 graftdigger cage
2 surgical extraction
2 diabolic edict
2 chains of mephistofele
1 choke
2 golgari charm
oddly I never draw the kolaghan, and only once the loam,
I'm getting more and more convinced by my idea that in non blue deck singleton must have huge impact and in multiple matchup to be worthy of running, I've cut the loam and put back a 4th liliana.
Kolaghan could be either a mirri's guile or sensei's top or a maelstrom pulse, but it's still a nice card and the "seven discard spell"
Loam could also replace choke in the board, but I prefer the latter since eldrazi and lands are less popular here than all the blue decks.
Why cut the Kolaghan's Command if you never drew it?
You have no way of knowing whether it's any good or not.
If you do decide to cut the Command, there's more than just the cards you mention to replace it with:
- 24th land (makes going nuts with Punishing Fire easier)
- Terminate (good against any midrange deck)
- Lightning Bolt (flexible)
- Hymn/Inquisition/Duress (good against combo)
- Sylvan Library (good against Miracles/Shardless)
- Garruk Relentless/Arlinn Kord/Chandra, ToD/Bloodbraid Elf (good against blue)
About your choices:
Running Top makes Peedle on Top worse.
Mirri's Guile doesn't actually do anything when you cast it, AND it's card disadvantage.
Maelstrom Pulse can be good, but it's just as slow and just as one-of-ish as the Command.
All things considered, I'd advise keeping the Command for testing, but if you swap it, go for Sylvan Library.
I took a look at the top 8s from Chiba, Baltimore, both Eternal Weekends, and Eternal Extravaganza. 40 total decks, 16 archetypes. 12 Miracles, 6 D&T, 5 Delver (4-color or Grixis). No other deck had more than 3 appearances. In this kind of meta, I can't think of a good reason not to play Jund. It just seems like having access to Decay AND other efficient (read: red) removal is super good. I've played BUG control variants, and while I think they can go toe-to-toe with Miracles in grindy matchups, they can stumble against fast draws from decks like D&T and Delver.
I'm thinking I'll start here:
4 DRS
4 Bob
4 Goyf
3 BBE
4 Liliana OTV
4 Bolt
4 Decay
3 Hymn
3 Thoughtseize
2 K-Command
2 Library
1 Pulse
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant
4 Mire
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Taiga
I do own groves so not playing the PF package is by choice. I think K-command has more utility and I'm not worried about being short on removal against creature decks... I also think Miracles isn't quite as susceptible to PF since Mentor can go way around it and they know how to keep a 2 on top to fight it. And the consistency in the manabase is great.
The big question I'm actually grappling with is the discard package. I have thought about playing Oath of Nissa over Thoughtseize just for a touch of added consistency so as not to get buried by bad draws. (Also, multiples kill each other, putting an enchantment in the GY for Tarmogoyf)
I've also thought about Sinkhole over Hymn as it's probably as good against Miracles and Eldrazi. Also considered GSZ packages, Loam, Crucible, Phyrexian Arena, etc. But for right now I'll start here and see if anything's really missing against the top 5 matchups I expect: Miracles, D&T, Eldrazi, Delver, and big-creature combo like Reanimator and Show & Tell.
For the sideboard, I think Surgical Extraction is at a high right now with the turn 1 reanimator deck and Loam strategies. But I've also considered Faerie Macabre because it works through a Chancellor and at instant speed. I'm not sure if GY clearing is that important right now; would lean on those kinds of cards & Deathrite to pick apart Dredge if it pops up.
I also think I'll just jam some Thorns for anti-combo but I have to pick them up to test.
Jund is perennially well positioned but usually suffers from a lack of dedicated pilots. Like you say, there are many favored matchups at the top of the meta right now. However, Lands, Eldrazi, Br Reanimator, and Show & Tell decks are out in force right now as well, so I think tuning the deck should focus on beating these matchups.
Dropping P-Fire is something I can get behind right now as it opens up the possibility of playing Blood Moon SB. With a mix of Bolt, Decay, and Kommand you're still well positioned against creature decks (and Prelate on 2 in particular). D-Edict could be worth considering out of the board as well to combat all the fatty decks.
Oath of Nissa is interesting and may have merit, but not a t the cost of cutting maindeck discard IMO, which you need a critical mass of to handle combo.
I agree on all but mirri's guile, I used it for two years without regrets, stacking with Bob and not intercating with Chains are very nice things, it also a one drop, which can make the deck smooth against unknown decks from turn 2, I know I'm one of the few to have this Idea, but it was never bad.
I couldn't agree more, Oath seems interesting but certainly does not fit the same slot as TS or Hymn.
I play Loams sometimes.
I saw a Jund list a few weeks ago, I believe highlighted on MTG Goldfish, that had a lot of basics and some card (enchantment?) where a high basics count benefit the player. I'm having a really hard time trying to dig it up because I can't remember what the name of the card was. Can anyone help me out finding it?
Not sure the exact list you saw, it was probably one with Destructive Flow.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Yes, I believe that card was it! Thank you!
Tested one MB Collective Brutality today, it was a huge bomb against infect! Has anyone else tried it?
I have been playing modern Jund with Grim Flayers lately, maybe need to try them also in legacy, they could work nicely with PFires..
They do, some of us have moved on to Flayer builds without BBE and running Painful Truths instead.
4 DRS
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Flayer
2 Grim Lavamancer
14
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn To Tourach
3 Painful Truths
2 Sylvan Library
11
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
13
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Urborg, ToY
1 Swamp
1 Forest
23
//
2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Choke
1 Boil
1 From the Ashes
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
1 Pyroblast
1 Terminate
///
By the first view, I like this list more than the standard list. Can you talk briefly about different match ups?
If we want to take the beatdown path, should we keep 3 hymn, or change to sinkhole or inquisition?
Yeah, my thought process from previous testing was that I was trying cutting DC and BBE for Avalanche Riders, Tombstalker, and Scavenging Ooze. But, it was good, but super clunky and Riders was quite slow. I'd definitely play the shit out of Riders at 1RR, just saying.
Having Loam maindeck is a nice plus since Wastelocking Eldrazi early is a real gameplan, and getting back Groves for setting up the long game against many other decks is great as well.
Grim Lavamancer is there because Flayer/Liliana are going to be dumping cards into the yard, so might as well use them. Lavamancer is game breaking against Tarmogoyf standoffs, Delvers, and opposing Shamans, and I love the guy.
Nice mix of removal; I'd love to max out Fires and Decay, but no room.
Sideboard is a mish-mash to handle the top tiers. Ideally we roll Delver over, but should we lose Game 1, bringing in Terminate, Pyroblast, Charm, and Deluge are pretty spicy. To help against Eldrazi, bring in the Terminate, From the Ashes, Toxic, and maybe Garruk. Probably not quite enough, but Wasteland is a card. Miracles we can bring in Needles, Rod, Choke, Boil, Garruk, and Games. Death and Taxes and Elves can be handled similarly with Terminate, Charm, Deluge.
As for Sinkholes, I would love to play it, but I'm not sure it's enough in the matchups we want it; I think Hymn is very solid as is. IoK is fine and I definitely used to run it, but I think we want our value where we can, and against decks like Miracles and Eldrazi and Storm, I'd rather have the two cards most of the time.
-Matt
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