I remember having copied a list to Cockatrice from way back when I was getting the cards for jund, in which it had Eternal Witness. I wonder if it would make sense, so we can get back some bolt/decay/charm/thoughtseize and use again.
I use Witness as a one of in modern. Bitch wins games. Not sure how effective she would be in Wasteland.format but I would test if you have the space.
Question, why are we looking at Fireless lists? Is it a budget thing because I do not know of many good reasons I would cut them shy of having a combo infested meta.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
Originally Posted by Spam
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
Well, I'm not really sure about the second Swamp either, but I know I'd definitely prefer it over a Mountain. Right now I have no idea what I'm doing for that 23rd land slot. As easy as it would seem to just add another fetch or add another dual, I don't particularly want either, and that boils my choices down to basic Swamp or something dumb like Cabal Pit. As I said in my earlier post, I went for the Swamp because it turns out that Cabal Pit, but I feel the Swamp worked out fine.
Also, Thrun seems unnecessary and bad. There are ways to beat Miracles with cards that are useful against more than one deck and aren't 4cc.
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
I guess Eternal Witness is better suited in Nic Fit. She can be fetched by GSZ, and bring back more powerful bombs like Pernicious Deed, and the like. I'd play Grim Lavamancer as creatures #15~16. He's great against DRS/Delver decks, a must-answer.
Just looking into other options.
Punishing Fire is REALLY mana intensive. And Wasteland can be a thing. We don't run Life from the Loam as an engine to power out Puninshing Fire.
It's basically trying to get a more stable manabase, and try to replace Punishing Fire with other types of removal.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
I'm not sure of everyone else, but my reasoning is that between the surge of Miracles within the last year and the decks that Punishing Fire is effective against growing more resilient, I really don't feel Punishing Fire is as necessary as it previously was. If I were guaranteed to have a meta crammed with Elves and Deadguy, holy hell would I run Punishing Fire all day every day. But I don't. I expect a bunch of things that Punishing Fire is incapable of or bad at dealing with.
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
IAJD and I are pushing testing with Bolts again because the deck probably needs to evolve with the meta in order to get back on top.
Legacy is about efficiency and Pfire is not. PFire is a lockdown engine that takes so few slots that it's worth it for decks that seek the long game. Jund could be better positioned against Combo, Miracles, and other decks simply by getting rid of it's Lifegain lands and swapping in burn. If you're having issues with high-creature decks, IMO, do what everyone else does and run various sweep effects.
It lowers the curve, adds slots, and cuts off a couple of turns worth of clock simply by not giving your opponent 5 life and instead bolting them end-game.
This may not be 100% correct; but IMO, Jund has this awkward dichotomy of prison lockdown as a backup to it's creature plan. Why? Because it's in color? No one needs that much removal. As a control type personality I get that it's fun to lock people out and grind them down; but it's probably more effective to play legacy. Maybe it's in response to SFM since everything becomes a threat; but then why not just destroy the Equip instead of burning every creature?
As an aside:
I don't see how it'd be the budget version when a set of Groves costs about as much as a Bayou, Goyf, or a set of fetches. I think it's being replaced with a Waste, Fetch, Bayou; which is ~$100 more expensive.
Also, IMO the decision is really "Do you run BBE or Punishing Fire" because they do opposite things. I think collectively they're the weakest cards in the deck, but one of the sets is necessary depending on if you're building something more controlling. As someone who's tested it; IMO Punishing Fire is better next to 1-2 Loam and Young Pyromancer; where the value and chance of lockdowns is higher. It also solves the TNN problem via swarming. This paragraph is all irrelevant however.
By Budget, I mean that some people have a lot of Duals and buying more lands might be a cost where running the duals might not be.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
This is what Jund build I'm running:
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Koth of the Hammer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Edict/Maelstrom Pulse
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb/Grafdigger's Cage
The possibility is open to run Grim Lavamancer maindeck again, especially if people plan on dropping Punishing Fires. Lavamancer is DAMN good.
Punishing Fires is a great control element. To say it's weak in the metagame really depends on the meta you're in. If you're with lots of Delver and SFM, it's going to be a great attrition element to your midrange deck. If you're fighting other midrange decks, such as Junk or Shardless, you're going to want fires to give you the edge since you'll be going for the long game. Koth/Liliana splitting is just to try since TNN, in my metagame, has been slowly being hated out of playability. Koth gives you bigger game against Miracles due to Haste and/or Emblem. More Sylvans give you distinct advantage that I think many are underestimating.
The board has a smattering. Grave hate, swarm hate, combo hate, and blue hate. Slaughter Games has really being doing work in the Miracles matchup as many of you know, and if you can slow combo down enough, taking their Burning Wishes or tutors is a good line of play.
Fires can be insanely mana intensive, but it doesn't have to be. You can just NOT use it and wait to play out threats, but I have to say that there will be many times when you want to have it. Even against Miracles where Counterbalance can shut you off, having ways to clear Ambush Vipers or to kill Jace out of nowhere can be relevant, at least in game 1.
-Matt
I would love to try out Koth, I've always been a fan of that card. But don't you want a few more mountains? Three doesn't seem anywhere near enough, especially as they are all wasteable.
was thinking the same.. run into alot of miracles and would love to jam it. its unfortunate that it wont get flipped with bloodbraid...
and was wondering the same, are there enough mountains to make it effective enough?
I prefer Nissa, Worldwaker, the untap its "meh", but the other its nice, opinions? ^^
If we're going to try out new things in the #4 Liliana slot, could Domri Rade work? Cascade-able, his -2 is pretty good when you have Goyf on board, and he's raw card advantage if his +1 hits (Sylvan Library can help with this).
4 mana for koth is pushing it.. and atleast his +1 lets you untap a mana you just spent to cast it.. and even attack on same turn.
nissa being 5 mana is a big no go to me.
I am not a huge fan of the card, but I am interested in hearing how good the Koth was for you as well.
Regarding the Punishing Fire, this card seems to be great against most decks, but is rather weak against few others. However, I would not cut it as this cards plays a major role while battling fair decks and can also grant a slow but inevitable death to your opponent. 3-4 Grove of the Burnwillows does not damage the mana base significantly enough to neglect the package. What is more, Jund is not a tempo deck like RUG and adding a few Bolts will not change that, whereas recurable removal strengthens Jund's controlling side and I always viewed Jund as more or less a control deck.
I would argue that the 4th Liliana should remain where she is. The card is just too versatile to dismiss and helps to fight problematic matchups. And she is definitely better than Domri Rade.
15 creatures is way too low to consider domri.
I didn't choose the Jund life, the Jund life chose me.
In other news, Jund is the first seed going into the invitational top 8 tomorrow so yay for us!
I didn't choose the Jund life, the Jund life chose me.
A shame Jund couldn't do better at the SCG Invitational. If only he got paired against the BUG delver decks...
It is a shame, but miracles is certainly a winnable matchup but our jund player made a few big mistakes. Casting a bloodbraid post combat for no reason, over extending into terminus etc
I didn't choose the Jund life, the Jund life chose me.
Agreed, there were some pretty bad plays. I did appreciate the attack with a 0/1 Goyf though
His SB wasn't particularly set up well for miracles either. I swear by a pair of Deeds, they're so good against Miracles. Drop one and you have protection from Entreat and their nasty enchantments.
I'm running into alot of miracles in our meta.. been thinking about even going a little more MB heavy against them.. or even more sb.
Still curious how koth runs... just seems like not enough mountains in the deck... i still want to try him though. 4/4 attacking lands seems huge in the matchup.
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